Junk Rig
- Thread starter anewth
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I would think that a junk rig would be great for a single hander on
a Vega 27 in some ways. Performance would go down a lot especially to
windward. I would say the Vega hull would do more for a junk rig than
the other way around. Having said that the rig might be easier to reef
for a single person as he would not need to leave the cockpit to reef.
As it is, the present rig with roller furling Genoa and the original
roller furling main would be nearly as easy to hand as a junk rig. There
may be some loss of windward ability with proper roller furling all
around,but not anywhere near as much as with a junk rig. A jib does not
work well to windward on a junk rig unless it is a jib with a bow or
sprite holding the sails shape for it. The junk main sails to windward
with the rig right far off the wind it does not need to be drawn in
tight hard on the wind. The problem is the jib does, so they don't work
well together. This would require moving the mast forward.
The big fault I find with boats designed for single handed ocean
crossings using junk rigs and other old style rigs is their lack of
windward ability. The biggest danger to and ocean going boat is when
getting close to land in a blow. To be caught on a lee shore trying to
beat your way off is a huge challenge. I think Vega has the right
combination of rig narrow hull ease of handling to give her a chance in
such conditions. I would not change a thing, she come close to being
perfect.
I would say some bigger and fatter boats would be a better candidate
though.
When you consider there is 45 years of successful sailing with the
design with on a few small changes to the rig and almost none to the
hull, I would say don't mess with a good and proven thing.
Doug
a Vega 27 in some ways. Performance would go down a lot especially to
windward. I would say the Vega hull would do more for a junk rig than
the other way around. Having said that the rig might be easier to reef
for a single person as he would not need to leave the cockpit to reef.
As it is, the present rig with roller furling Genoa and the original
roller furling main would be nearly as easy to hand as a junk rig. There
may be some loss of windward ability with proper roller furling all
around,but not anywhere near as much as with a junk rig. A jib does not
work well to windward on a junk rig unless it is a jib with a bow or
sprite holding the sails shape for it. The junk main sails to windward
with the rig right far off the wind it does not need to be drawn in
tight hard on the wind. The problem is the jib does, so they don't work
well together. This would require moving the mast forward.
The big fault I find with boats designed for single handed ocean
crossings using junk rigs and other old style rigs is their lack of
windward ability. The biggest danger to and ocean going boat is when
getting close to land in a blow. To be caught on a lee shore trying to
beat your way off is a huge challenge. I think Vega has the right
combination of rig narrow hull ease of handling to give her a chance in
such conditions. I would not change a thing, she come close to being
perfect.
I would say some bigger and fatter boats would be a better candidate
though.
When you consider there is 45 years of successful sailing with the
design with on a few small changes to the rig and almost none to the
hull, I would say don't mess with a good and proven thing.
Doug
It is not a Vega but here's an example. I think you'd lose a bit to windward
but you shouldn't lose much on other points of sail if the rig is properly
designed.
but you shouldn't lose much on other points of sail if the rig is properly
designed.
You might look into information about the sailboat "Jester" which was
a 26' Folkboat (very similar specs to the Vega) which was converted by
a British man named Herberrt Hasler to use a junk rig. He entered it
a number of times into the Observer Globe Transatlantic Race back in
the sixties and did not too badly. He made a number of radical
changes to the boat including converting the cockpit into cabin space
and creating a large hatch foreward from which he could manage the rig
and his steering gear. With this setup he seldom had to go on deck
while underway.
Garry McKevitt
V. 2427
a 26' Folkboat (very similar specs to the Vega) which was converted by
a British man named Herberrt Hasler to use a junk rig. He entered it
a number of times into the Observer Globe Transatlantic Race back in
the sixties and did not too badly. He made a number of radical
changes to the boat including converting the cockpit into cabin space
and creating a large hatch foreward from which he could manage the rig
and his steering gear. With this setup he seldom had to go on deck
while underway.
Garry McKevitt
V. 2427
After replying to this post I have been thinking about it more. Phil
Bolger designed a junk rig for his sharpies. Since our Vegas are pretty
much sharpies in bottom shape that rig might suit well. There are some
using it on Blogers AS 29 and claim it;s a good rig.
Doug
Bolger designed a junk rig for his sharpies. Since our Vegas are pretty
much sharpies in bottom shape that rig might suit well. There are some
using it on Blogers AS 29 and claim it;s a good rig.
Doug
Hi All
There was a Scotttish guy that was changing his Vega to Junk Rig a couple of years ago. I know he had to refit the mast more forward but Ive not heard anything for a year.
His name is John McDonagh, Vega name SOFIA V2025
Cheers
Steve B
There was a Scotttish guy that was changing his Vega to Junk Rig a couple of years ago. I know he had to refit the mast more forward but Ive not heard anything for a year.
His name is John McDonagh, Vega name SOFIA V2025
Cheers
Steve B
You wrote
"Since our Vegas are pretty
much sharpies in bottom shape that rig might suit well"
Being from Scandinavia and knowing sharpies, I can only say that I DISAGREE 110%. The VEGA is very far from being a Sharpie. How can you you make such a statement?????
That the Vega will most probably be a very suitable hull for a Junk rig is another thing.
Anders
"Since our Vegas are pretty
much sharpies in bottom shape that rig might suit well"
Being from Scandinavia and knowing sharpies, I can only say that I DISAGREE 110%. The VEGA is very far from being a Sharpie. How can you you make such a statement?????
That the Vega will most probably be a very suitable hull for a Junk rig is another thing.
Anders
I agree - the Vega and a Sharpie are very different.
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, eliassonguitars
eliassonguitars@...wrote:
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, eliassonguitars
eliassonguitars@...wrote:
Well if you are talking about new Haven sharpies you are very right.
They are flat bottomed and look nothing like a Vega top or bottom.
Chesapeake bay Sharpies have anwhere between 6 and 16 inches of dead
rise, a long strait run aft sharp on the bottom in the bow and they
curve upward some in the stern with a little roll up to meet the sides.
Some of them that had fixed keels even had a soft transition to the keel
but a smaller radius along the chine. Vega admittedly has a larger
radius along where a chine would be on a sharpy at the water line. The
simularity ends there as you look at a Vega above the water line. In my
opinion Vega is a modified sharpie and that is where so many of her good
sailng and handleing characteristics come from. Most sailboats before
1970 either came from sharpie or canoe designs after about 1970 most
boats were designed from racing dingy designs. Most of the bigger
cruising boats boats are canoes and the came from the turn of the
century canoe yawls that were so popular then. As far as I can tell
there are only three hulls, sharpie , canoe and dingy unless you go to
multihuls but that is anothery thing altogether. The dingy designs are
fast but do not handle as well as the other two. A few boats have been
built from modified Dory designs but they are not generally fine sailors
o9r5 fast at least not to windward. This is only my opinion, so
everyone is very welcome to
disagree. Doug
They are flat bottomed and look nothing like a Vega top or bottom.
Chesapeake bay Sharpies have anwhere between 6 and 16 inches of dead
rise, a long strait run aft sharp on the bottom in the bow and they
curve upward some in the stern with a little roll up to meet the sides.
Some of them that had fixed keels even had a soft transition to the keel
but a smaller radius along the chine. Vega admittedly has a larger
radius along where a chine would be on a sharpy at the water line. The
simularity ends there as you look at a Vega above the water line. In my
opinion Vega is a modified sharpie and that is where so many of her good
sailng and handleing characteristics come from. Most sailboats before
1970 either came from sharpie or canoe designs after about 1970 most
boats were designed from racing dingy designs. Most of the bigger
cruising boats boats are canoes and the came from the turn of the
century canoe yawls that were so popular then. As far as I can tell
there are only three hulls, sharpie , canoe and dingy unless you go to
multihuls but that is anothery thing altogether. The dingy designs are
fast but do not handle as well as the other two. A few boats have been
built from modified Dory designs but they are not generally fine sailors
o9r5 fast at least not to windward. This is only my opinion, so
everyone is very welcome to
disagree. Doug
Sorry I forgot to add the note below.
I don't know anything about Scandinavian sharpies, so I can't make
a comparison there, I am only familiar with the American sharpies. I
will look at some line drawings from your part of the world. We may be
looking at this from two very different points of view.
Doug
I don't know anything about Scandinavian sharpies, so I can't make
a comparison there, I am only familiar with the American sharpies. I
will look at some line drawings from your part of the world. We may be
looking at this from two very different points of view.
Doug
If there are only three hull shapes, sharpie, canoe, and dinghy (which is
really a size of boat and not a hull shape in my opinion), which best
describes a North Sea Pilot Cutter, a Tumlaren or any other of Knud
Reimer's designs? Or Lyle Hess designs like the Pardey's Serrafyn or
Taleisin? You should post your statements here
www.boatdesign.net
and get a real debate going.
really a size of boat and not a hull shape in my opinion), which best
describes a North Sea Pilot Cutter, a Tumlaren or any other of Knud
Reimer's designs? Or Lyle Hess designs like the Pardey's Serrafyn or
Taleisin? You should post your statements here
Boat Design
Discuss boat design concepts, projects, plans, reviews, resources, and general design topics.
www.boatdesign.net
To my eye, the Vega is a deepwater boat, not much like the Chesapeake or New Haven sharpies. I have always felt the Vega is essentially a Folkboat derivation, A Marieholm International Folkboat PageNicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial St.
Portland ME 04101
207/772-2191
Fax 207/774-3940
This email is from a law firm and may contain information
that is privileged or confidential. If you suspect
you were not intended to receive this email,
please delete it and contact us.
From: Douglas Pollard
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:40 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Junk Rig
Well if you are talking about new Haven sharpies you are very right.
They are flat bottomed and look nothing like a Vega top or bottom.
Chesapeake bay Sharpies have anwhere between 6 and 16 inches of dead
rise, a long strait run aft sharp on the bottom in the bow and they
curve upward some in the stern with a little roll up to meet the sides.
Some of them that had fixed keels even had a soft transition to the keel
but a smaller radius along the chine. Vega admittedly has a larger
radius along where a chine would be on a sharpy at the water line. The
simularity ends there as you look at a Vega above the water line. In my
opinion Vega is a modified sharpie and that is where so many of her good
sailng and handleing characteristics come from. Most sailboats before
1970 either came from sharpie or canoe designs after about 1970 most
boats were designed from racing dingy designs. Most of the bigger
cruising boats boats are canoes and the came from the turn of the
century canoe yawls that were so popular then. As far as I can tell
there are only three hulls, sharpie , canoe and dingy unless you go to
multihuls but that is anothery thing altogether. The dingy designs are
fast but do not handle as well as the other two. A few boats have been
built from modified Dory designs but they are not generally fine sailors
o9r5 fast at least not to windward. This is only my opinion, so
everyone is very welcome to
disagree. Doug
111 Commercial St.
Portland ME 04101
207/772-2191
Fax 207/774-3940
This email is from a law firm and may contain information
that is privileged or confidential. If you suspect
you were not intended to receive this email,
please delete it and contact us.
From: Douglas Pollard
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:40 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Junk Rig
Well if you are talking about new Haven sharpies you are very right.
They are flat bottomed and look nothing like a Vega top or bottom.
Chesapeake bay Sharpies have anwhere between 6 and 16 inches of dead
rise, a long strait run aft sharp on the bottom in the bow and they
curve upward some in the stern with a little roll up to meet the sides.
Some of them that had fixed keels even had a soft transition to the keel
but a smaller radius along the chine. Vega admittedly has a larger
radius along where a chine would be on a sharpy at the water line. The
simularity ends there as you look at a Vega above the water line. In my
opinion Vega is a modified sharpie and that is where so many of her good
sailng and handleing characteristics come from. Most sailboats before
1970 either came from sharpie or canoe designs after about 1970 most
boats were designed from racing dingy designs. Most of the bigger
cruising boats boats are canoes and the came from the turn of the
century canoe yawls that were so popular then. As far as I can tell
there are only three hulls, sharpie , canoe and dingy unless you go to
multihuls but that is anothery thing altogether. The dingy designs are
fast but do not handle as well as the other two. A few boats have been
built from modified Dory designs but they are not generally fine sailors
o9r5 fast at least not to windward. This is only my opinion, so
everyone is very welcome to
disagree. Doug
As far as I know, the only sharpies (and dories) you can find in Scandinavia are of American or American influenced design.
The Vega is 100% a Scandinavian design in family with folkboats, Kosters and even viking ships. Per Brohäll (the designer of the Vega) said that the Vega was basically a skärgaardskryssara with the long overhangs cut of.
Sharpies have more or less square cross sections and the Vega has round cross section with the keel build down as a part of the hull.
The Vega is flatter in the bottom than trad. Scandinavian designs and has a flatter aft section. Thats where they might slightly look like a sharpie (or a dinghy) But look at the cross sections from the bow to the keel and its a totally different story.
Besides, being Sharpie, Vikingship or whatever, I´m pretty sure that the VEga will adopt very well to the Junk rig if someone prefere that kind of rig.
The Vega is 100% a Scandinavian design in family with folkboats, Kosters and even viking ships. Per Brohäll (the designer of the Vega) said that the Vega was basically a skärgaardskryssara with the long overhangs cut of.
Sharpies have more or less square cross sections and the Vega has round cross section with the keel build down as a part of the hull.
The Vega is flatter in the bottom than trad. Scandinavian designs and has a flatter aft section. Thats where they might slightly look like a sharpie (or a dinghy) But look at the cross sections from the bow to the keel and its a totally different story.
Besides, being Sharpie, Vikingship or whatever, I´m pretty sure that the VEga will adopt very well to the Junk rig if someone prefere that kind of rig.
Its definately closer to a Folkboat than to a Sharpie. The Vega has a shorter keel and a flatter bottom than the typical folkboat.
This means that the Vega is designed to be saild with less heel. The designer said that as well.
The folkboat heels quite a lot and maintains low pressure on the rudder.
If its a Deepwater boat.... HM. Traditional deepwater boats are very heavy with the keel section build a lot further down than on a Vega.
This means that the Vega is designed to be saild with less heel. The designer said that as well.
The folkboat heels quite a lot and maintains low pressure on the rudder.
If its a Deepwater boat.... HM. Traditional deepwater boats are very heavy with the keel section build a lot further down than on a Vega.
Clipper ships were sharpies,as are modern day ships. They are
sharpies of the flat Bottomed variety.
There are designers that argue the New Haven sharpy was an
adaptation of of flat bottoed sailing ships. But there are many other
sharpies. Commador Monroe built round bilge sharpy for sailing up and
down the east coast. Rual Parker builds round builge sharpies where
its shallow keel is a part of the hull as is Vega. There are several
designers that have designs that have all these same hull configurations
and a deep draft designed for building in wood and single handing across
Oceans. The designers call them sharpies. It is my understanding Vega
was designed to not be pricey and that was carried on when they were
built in glass. The cheapest boats for wood construction are of sharpy
design. If you remeber Vega was a wooden boat design. The keel could
have just as easily been attached and the result would have been that
she would be a little less sea kindly and maybe slower in light air
without the large radius between the two.
Vega does not have a deep hull but rather a shallow one which is
the reason there is very little room in the bilge in order to get head
room. Almost all of her lateral resistance to making lee way is in her
keel. This is also true of sharpies. Canoes evolved into deep hulled
keel boats because the canoe hull shape allowed it. Vega is not one of
those boats. She is a long way from a canoe shape and is way closer to
a rounded v bottomed sharpie that anything else.
I am saying if she is not a canoe of any kind and she is not a
sharpie and not a dingy then what is she. The Folkboat I don't think is
a class of boat in the basic sense but a seaworthy adaptation of
something else as are most boats. I haven't seen the lines but from a
few pictures I have seen she looks to me to be more of a canoe type.
Even Vega's narrowness is a sharpie characteristic as compared to
dingy hulls and to some extent keel type canoes. Hey, You guys may
well be right as I am sure no expert on sharpies or hardly anything
else?? One thing I am very sure of she is one very fine boat in every
way. Doug
sharpies of the flat Bottomed variety.
There are designers that argue the New Haven sharpy was an
adaptation of of flat bottoed sailing ships. But there are many other
sharpies. Commador Monroe built round bilge sharpy for sailing up and
down the east coast. Rual Parker builds round builge sharpies where
its shallow keel is a part of the hull as is Vega. There are several
designers that have designs that have all these same hull configurations
and a deep draft designed for building in wood and single handing across
Oceans. The designers call them sharpies. It is my understanding Vega
was designed to not be pricey and that was carried on when they were
built in glass. The cheapest boats for wood construction are of sharpy
design. If you remeber Vega was a wooden boat design. The keel could
have just as easily been attached and the result would have been that
she would be a little less sea kindly and maybe slower in light air
without the large radius between the two.
Vega does not have a deep hull but rather a shallow one which is
the reason there is very little room in the bilge in order to get head
room. Almost all of her lateral resistance to making lee way is in her
keel. This is also true of sharpies. Canoes evolved into deep hulled
keel boats because the canoe hull shape allowed it. Vega is not one of
those boats. She is a long way from a canoe shape and is way closer to
a rounded v bottomed sharpie that anything else.
I am saying if she is not a canoe of any kind and she is not a
sharpie and not a dingy then what is she. The Folkboat I don't think is
a class of boat in the basic sense but a seaworthy adaptation of
something else as are most boats. I haven't seen the lines but from a
few pictures I have seen she looks to me to be more of a canoe type.
Even Vega's narrowness is a sharpie characteristic as compared to
dingy hulls and to some extent keel type canoes. Hey, You guys may
well be right as I am sure no expert on sharpies or hardly anything
else?? One thing I am very sure of she is one very fine boat in every
way. Doug