Joker Valve?

kappykaplan · Nov 4, 2013

Sounds like it is the joker valve. Go to Defender and order a service kit for your Jabsco.

c130king · Nov 4, 2013

Michael,

Very easy to remove the old one. Salt build-up on the valve can keep it from closing properly which can allow backwash.

Remove the old one and take it to West Marine if you have one near you. They probably carry the one you need. I seem to recall I bought just the joker valve...not a kit with other parts in it.

Very easy to install the new one. Wasn't even a messy job. Just flush a lot of fresh water before you start the removal.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Jim

c130king · Nov 4, 2013

Pretty sure I bought 2 just so I would have a spare. They weren't very expensive if I remember correctly.

Jim

kappykaplan · Nov 4, 2013

No, one size doesn't fit all . . .

Michael Meyer said:
one size fits all?

http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|51|2234284|2234293&id=828144

Michael, if I recall correctly, Defender had (has) two or three kits for the Jabsco, based on the year of the toilet. The two or three times I've replaced mine, I purchased a major rebuild kit and taken care of everything.

thinwater · Nov 4, 2013

Just the Joker valve.

The greatest cause of waste return and salt build up is not flushing enough. If the waste is flushed through quickly there isn't enough time to build scale; the reaction takes some time. Also a leading cause of pump-out problems. Pump 6-10 full strokes every time, AFTER the bowl is clean. And then if it does come back, it's only water.

Rather than a rebuild kit, when the time comes, I would suggest a new pump assembly. Not much more $$ and you have, in effect, a new head. Very easy. I am a cheapskate, but this is the best fix for the $$.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Nov 4, 2013

Yes, that is the joker valve that will cause that problem.

My recommendation is to not by the Jabsco joker valve. These valves are generally one-size-fits all. The Jabsco joker valve is not very good and will breakdown from winter storage. The Ratarian joker valve is much better.

If you have access to the Practical Sailor achieves, they did a review of all the common joker valves and how they deal with chemical exposure. The Jabsco tested out to be one of the worst.

Another aspect is winterization. I remove my joker valve after winterizing the head. I then wash it with dish soap and warm water. It's another step but once you have the joker valve fail and you have waste on the floor of the head after a good sail, you will do anything to not repeat that fun cleanup.

On the not flushing enough, because the loop is placed close to the head on our C310s you only need to flush about 5-10 times after you see to bowl go dry to get the waste over the loop.

Make sure you have gloves, a trash bag and lots of paper towels before you start this job.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse

thinwater · Nov 4, 2013

You've quoted the report out of context. The underlined information was also in the article.

"My recommendation is to not by the Jabsco joker valve. These valves are generally one-size-fits all. The Jabsco joker valve is not very good and will breakdown from winter storage." Only if PG is used (PG stiffens neoprene). If EG is used there is no harm during winter storage.

"The Ratarian joker valve is much better." The Raritan valve has a smaller opening, is stiffer and will clog somewhat more easily if used in a Jabsco head. It is designed for the Raritan head, which has a more powerful pump.

"If you have access to the Practical Sailor achieves, they did a review of all the common joker valves and how they deal with chemical exposure. The Jabsco tested out to be one of the worst." No, only worst with regard to PG. There is no reason to use PG in a marine head. The neoprene valve in the Jabsco head is also somewhat less resistant to petroleum oil, but why would you flush that? The Jabsco valve was MOST resistant to urine, which is more to the point. The Raritan valve was the only valve that leaked due to chemical exposure during testing (after urine exposure).

Certainly the Raritan valve will fit the Jabsco head and we currently have several in extended field trials without troubles. Honestly, both are good products, just different.

iSailor · Nov 4, 2013

Michael Meyer said:
Anyone know what valve I need to order to stop the waste tank from back washing in to the toilet? Seems after we pump it and flush it with clean water it still back-washes in the bowl.

I read somewhere about the joker valve?

Good timing! I am having the same issue.

c130king · Nov 4, 2013

Another thought related to this subject to add to the discussion.

The previous owner recommended running some white vinegar through the head periodically. The vinegar breaks up the salt build-up...or so he told me.

Pouring in a cup of vinegar was part of his monthly maintenance checklist. And I follow that checklist and do the same thing.

Not a chemist so not sure what the vinegar does but vinegar is cheap so I do it. Also part of that checklist is pouring in some vegetable oil. I can definitely tell the pump works a little easier after the oil works through the pump.

On the first of each month I do about a cup of oil first and pump several times. Then I pour in about a cup of vinegar and pump maybe twice to get the vinegar to the joker valve and then just let it sit there.

An ounce of prevention (at very low cost) might be preventing a pound of trouble (which might be more expensive).

Cheers,
Jim

thinwater · Nov 4, 2013

I've spent a lot of time on these issues (chemical engineer), so while I'm over posting, I am posting based on testing.

"The previous owner recommended running some white vinegar through the head periodically. The vinegar breaks up the salt build-up...or so he told me..."

Really, vinegar does practically nothing, mostly old wives tale.
a. Mainesail posted this (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/vinegar_in_the_head) showing how little it does.
b. In my testing CLR actually has some effect... though really frequent flushing is far more effective.

"On the first of each month I do about a cup of oil first and pump several times. Then I pour in about a cup of vinegar and pump maybe twice to get the vinegar to the joker valve and then just let it sit there."

I'm pretty sure I would do the vinegar first; the oil will coat the scale and keep the vinegar off.

Regarding the practice of adding oil, I think the manufacture recommendation of annual lube is more logical. In our testing (6 side-by-side holding tanks with a variety of treatments) the one thing that correlated with build-up in the tank and pumping problems was the use of oil for head lube. Stuff clumps up and sticks to the walls. It is, of course, a matter of degree.

In our testing a good vigorous treatment with CLR 2-4 times per year seems most practical and completely safe. It really eats and CLR is safer on the parts than vinegar (it is also a naturally concurring organic acid, in this case lactic acid). The best way to get lime out of the hoses is to beat them on the ground.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Nov 4, 2013

thinwater said:
You've quoted the report out of context. The underlined information was also in the article. "My recommendation is to not by the Jabsco joker valve. These valves are generally one-size-fits all. The Jabsco joker valve is not very good and will breakdown from winter storage." Only if PG is used (PG stiffens neoprene). If EG is used there is no
during winter storage. "The Ratarian joker valve is much better." The Raritan valve has a smaller opening, is stiffer and will clog somewhat more easily if used in a Jabsco head. It is designed for the Raritan head, which has a more powerful pump. "If you have access to the Practical Sailor achieves, they did a review of all the common joker valves and how they deal with chemical exposure. The Jabsco tested out to be one of the worst." No, only worst with regard to PG. There is no reason to use PG in a marine head. The neoprene valve in the Jabsco head is also somewhat less resistant to petroleum oil, but why would you flush that? The Jabsco valve was MOST resistant to urine, which is more to the point. The Raritan valve was the only valve that leaked due to chemical exposure during testing (after urine exposure). Certainly the Raritan valve will fit the Jabsco head and we currently have several in extended field trials without troubles. Honestly, both are good products, just different.

I appreciate you correcting my previous post but I think you are incorrect on a few things.

First, and especially as a chemical engineer, how ca you recommend the use of EG in a marina sanitation system? I would venture that less than 1 percent of boat owners would even consider collecting the discharge from their winterized holding tank. That would mean the EG would be discharged into the environment. EG is highly toxic and that is just irresponsible. So PG is the responsible chemical to use for winterization. Not sure how you could recommend anything else.

Second, urine is only a factor if you don't flush with water after use. Your joker valve should not be sitting in urine.

I have been using the ratarian joker valve for over 2 years without a problem. The pump is plenty strong and we have not had any issues with additional clogging. It closes better and that is what prevents the back flowing.

I think the PS article was good but I generally don't just pay attention to the conclusions. I read the test methodologies and results then draw my own conclusions.

Thanks,

Jesse

Witzend · Nov 4, 2013

It is not the PG per say, but the alcohol they cut it with. Don't use the cheep stuff from the auto parts store and the Joker won't go wild.

thinwater · Nov 4, 2013

Good questions.

"First, and especially as a chemical engineer, how ca you recommend the use of EG in a marina sanitation system? I would venture that less than 1 percent of boat owners would even consider collecting the discharge from their winterized holding tank. That would mean the EG would be discharged into the environment. EG is highly toxic and that is just irresponsible. So PG is the responsible chemical to use for winterization. Not sure how you could recommend anything else."

I am sure of these facts. EG is no more harmful to the marine environment than PG and the US EPA agrees with me. While EG is toxic to mammals (do NOT use EG in potable water systems) it is not appreciably toxic to marine organisms and no different than PG. Those are plain and irrefutable facts backed by the links below (and more). Different biology, just like feeding chocolate to a dog is bad or zinc is good for humans. EG is safe as safe in the water as PG. However, I would hope that the first pump-out would be into a POTW, which renders the point mute, since both are readily treated.

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/wastetech/guide/airport/upload/2005_10_07_guide_airport_airport.pdf
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927167
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

"Second, urine is only a factor if you don't flush with water after use. Your joker valve should not be sitting in urine."

Very true, you are correct. But some folks don't flush enough. I have seen urine-stiffened valves in the process of researching. Yuck.

"I have been using the ratarian joker valve for over 2 years without a problem. The pump is plenty strong and we have not had any issues with additional clogging. It closes better and that is what prevents the back flowing."

True enough. We have tested both and reported no problems with either. Some of the test boats preferred the easier pumping, but you should observe that all three valves were, in fact, recommended.

"I think the PS article was good but I generally don't just pay attention to the conclusions. I read the test methodologies and results then draw my own conclusions. "

I think that is a healthy attitude. The data is the data, but interpretation is often foggy or individual. I think the most important part of the article was to warn sailors that PG in Jabsco heads is a poor combination; either EG or drain dry.

sailliny · Nov 5, 2013

I have been having the same problem. I email Jabsco and they suggested I do the vinegar purging which did nothing. They did suggest I may have a blocked vent hose which may be creating back pressure in the tank. Once on the hard I plan to see if I can clear and or replace the vent hose.

FYI Jabsco sent me a new Joker valve for free.

I was thinking about trying the Ratarian joker valve but two are listed at west marine which one should I get?

Witzend · Nov 5, 2013

Michael Meyer said:
I just bought the entire assembly. Not much more expensive than the rebuild kit. Maybe I'll take the old one to West Marine and test fit the Ratarian joker valves???

BTW - we don't use any salt water in our head. We just turn the shower water on and fill the bowel a few times after each use. Keeps the smell to a minimum...at least it used to until the back-washing started occurring.

But do you use Clorox to keep the beast's from stinking up you fresh water?The Chlorine ion is lurking in your fresh water as well. Not sure why they don't make these valves out of silicone rubber. Hypalon would be even better, but then again, not a very good business model, not going to sell many replacements.

thinwater · Nov 5, 2013

a. The Raritan PH II joker valve fits the Jabsco manual heads.

b. Most valves fail from scale build-up rather than any of the chemical exposures, and that has NOTHING to do with the material. We tested many elastomers and the rate of scale build-up was the same in all cases. Thus, EVERY manufacturer will tell you that 1 year is good and that 2 years is excellent. Silicone rubber wouldn't help with chemical exposure either, since it can't handle vegitable oil and many lubes so well. Nitrile and neoprene are both good choices, just different.

c. Yeah, Cl is not so good, but judging from the rate it attacks the fittings in your home toilet, which sees far more Cl, and judging from out bleach immersion testing, bleach is a very minor concern. The best reasons not to use bleach have to do with sterilizing the holding tank, pump-out problems and odor. Chlorine treatment of the fresh water has been determined by all manufacturers to be a non-issue.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Nov 6, 2013

thinwater said:
Good questions.

"First, and especially as a chemical engineer, how ca you recommend the use of EG in a marina sanitation system? I would venture that less than 1 percent of boat owners would even consider collecting the discharge from their winterized holding tank. That would mean the EG would be discharged into the environment. EG is highly toxic and that is just irresponsible. So PG is the responsible chemical to use for winterization. Not sure how you could recommend anything else."

I am sure of these facts. EG is no more harmful to the marine environment than PG and the US EPA agrees with me. While EG is toxic to mammals (do NOT use EG in potable water systems) it is not appreciably toxic to marine organisms and no different than PG. Those are plain and irrefutable facts backed by the links below (and more). Different biology, just like feeding chocolate to a dog is bad or zinc is good for humans. EG is safe as safe in the water as PG. However, I would hope that the first pump-out would be into a POTW, which renders the point mute, since both are readily treated.

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/wastetech/guide/airport/upload/2005_10_07_guide_airport_airport.pdf
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927167
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

"Second, urine is only a factor if you don't flush with water after use. Your joker valve should not be sitting in urine."

Very true, you are correct. But some folks don't flush enough. I have seen urine-stiffened valves in the process of researching. Yuck.

"I have been using the ratarian joker valve for over 2 years without a problem. The pump is plenty strong and we have not had any issues with additional clogging. It closes better and that is what prevents the back flowing."

True enough. We have tested both and reported no problems with either. Some of the test boats preferred the easier pumping, but you should observe that all three valves were, in fact, recommended.

"I think the PS article was good but I generally don't just pay attention to the conclusions. I read the test methodologies and results then draw my own conclusions. "

I think that is a healthy attitude. The data is the data, but interpretation is often foggy or individual. I think the most important part of the article was to warn sailors that PG in Jabsco heads is a poor combination; either EG or drain dry.

Just to be a nit-picky on the EG vs. PG. The EPA report on deicers does state that there is significant environmental impacts from the discharge of these chemicals to the marine environment. Most notably are fish kills. These occur due to the break down of EG and PG in the water which results in depleting the dissolved oxygen. EG breaks down 2-3 time quicker than PG in a marine environment. In this case that is a bad thing because that is what results in depleting the DO quicker. Because it takes more time to breakdown the PG you don't get the acute depletion of DO. Usually this means that natural processes (tides, currents, etc.) will dilute the PG before it can cause much of a problem.

Discharging EG in a marina type environment is where the problems occur. Generally marinas are constructed in protected areas where current and wind don't have as much influence over water and they include structures like docks and breakwaters that further decrease this influence. Thus creating a stagnant area. In the northeast you combine that with the seasonal aspect of boating that can result in a lot of boats discharging antifreeze into the water at the same time. This had lead to fish kills from depleted DO.

I agree that ideally, your antifreeze should be pumped out at a facility and not into the water. But the reality is that most boaters barely use pump out facilities for their waste, never mind antifreeze from winterization.

Personally, I use PG in my marine sanitation system. I pump 2 gallons through my head into a clean and empty holding tank. I then run my macerator for a few seconds to get the PG into that part of the system (yes, some discharges to the environment from this). I then pull out my joker valve and wash it with tap water, put it in a zip lock and store it for the winter.

As far as which joker valve, I choose the Ratarian. I think the single direction flap is better than the three fold flap for preventing backflow. This could mean some additional pressure on the pump but I have not seen any affect from this in 2 years of use.

I don't flush vinegar down the head (thanks to MaineSail's post on the subject) and I lubricate the pump (by disassembling the pump and actually lubing the correct parts) with marine grease not head lube or vegetable oil down the bowl. We flush with fresh water from the shower head most of the time or at least once a day if we are out cruising and trying to save water.

Works for us.

Jesse

Joker Valve?

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