Jib Size and Pointing Ability

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May 12, 2008
24
Santana 525 Bristol, PA Delaware River
I sail a Santana 525, with a 155% Genoa. I sail against another 525 with a 145% Genoa. We have very similar boat prep (bottom paint, rig tension, etc). Not a big difference in genoa size but we've noticed that he points much better than I do upwind. To achieve the same sail angle I would be luffing the genoa quite a bit and therefore losing speed. Of course, his pointing ability goes away downwind and my larger genoa is an advantage and we tend to close ground on him (we typically do not race Spinnakers). So, my question is am I doing something terribly wrong or is it just the nature of the smaller headsail to be able to point better? Thoughts?
 
Jan 22, 2008
1,483
Hunter 37 C sloop Punta Gorda FL
Not all Genoas are created equal. Cut, fabric can make a big difference. Find out what you can about his genoa in addition to it's size.
 
May 12, 2008
24
Santana 525 Bristol, PA Delaware River
And the genoas are of similar materials and construction. I have a North 3DL 580 Composite Genoa and his is of similar construction and material from a different sail maker.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Generally a smaller genoa will affect better 'pointing' characteristics .... simply because of the 'timing' or sail interaction with the mainsail. Especially in lighter winds this more true because the smaller genoa will have less tendency to develop an invisible 'separation stall' on the leeward side. Also if you are using a woven dacron mainsail, when was the last time you had the 'boltope' adjusted as the shape of mainsail will greatly affect jib/genoa performance ????? If you note the size of the headsails on the more modern high end racing boats .... the jibs/genoas are getting smaller and smaller and you hardly ever see a 150LP any more, the reason is 'pointing ability'.

With any 'differences' in performance between headsails of only 10-15% difference in LP dimension, Id FIRST look at the forestay tensions for the PROPER amount of 'luff sag' once the existance of 'separation stalls' (by using a full set of tell tales @ luff/midcord/leeches + plus a row of gentry tufts for 'steering') is satisfied/eliminated. Generally the error made with BIG headsails is that they are invariably 'sheeted in too tight' which causes the luff to sag resulting in the 'point/position of maximum draft' to move aft, and the leech to 'hook up to the weather side'. Here's how assay: http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/svAquila/MatchingLuffHollow.gif


If you cant get a FULL set of tell tales flying bombproof 'perfect', start at the beginning and do 'anything' so that ALL are flying 'perfect' .... including jib sheet TENSION, etc.

Also do 'search' on this forum for 'turbo sailing' as your competitor may simply be a better 'helmsman' who always sails to gentle "S" curves while beating instead of 'straight line' beating which is 'slower' and with less to-windward gain (his keel is 'flying' too, at times).
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
I'd like to have $1.00 for each time the following questions comes up at sail trim seminars I conduct. Some times it's asked differently but it comes down to this question "my boat won't point high enough". I tell them "so what!!" and then go on with a short explanation because I don't have the time to go into a lot of detail during a Q&A - I want to get in as many questions as I can in the limited time they provide me.

When you are pointing your sailing closer to your destination but slower than if you fall off a bit where your sailing faster but farther to your destination. Over a decent distant, with two EVENLY MATCHED boats, the boat that foots off a bit will beat the boat that is pointing as high as he can. Addittionally, when you point as high as you can you are dangerously close to PINCHING (sailing very close to the eye of the wind) and within an inch of stalling both the main and jib.

Lift, which powers your boat, is generated from 3 sources - the sails, the rudder and the keel. When you're pointing as high as you can and heeled over, where your neighbor can see the bottom of your keel and rudder you're losing lift from both those sources. It might look trick to see folks hanging off the rail but the boat with about 15 - 20 degrees of heel and footing off slightly is going to woop on the other boat every time.

Pinching is exactly what happened in a race I was in at Long Beach, Ca. The skipper was a back of the pack racer who had invited me on board in hopes of improving his position. We were moving up to the back of the middle of the pack. He insisted on pointing higher and higher. I warned him that if he goes any higher he's going to pinch the sails and that's exactly what happened and we ended up right were we started. He looked at me and I just shrugged my shoulders.

When I was in the insurance buisness, on the company side, agents would invite me to their office to help solve their sales and marketing problems. Then they'd TELL ME how to do it. I would wonder to myself, why am I here? Same with some of the sail boats I go on!!
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
There is nothing more irritating than when someone asks you for an answer, or a solution, to a problem...... and then argues with your suggestion. My response is short a sweet.... "Do you really need help, or is this a test?"
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Joe: Wish I had thought of that response. Here's another one that came up last Feb at the Lake Havasu Small Boat Convention. A shipmate ask me what the traveler controls and I told him - angle of attack. He said that's not what it controls. I said "OK, then what does it control?". I couldn't believe the answer he gave me. He said "I don't know!!".
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Joe: Wish I had thought of that response. Here's another one that came up last Feb at the Lake Havasu Small Boat Convention. A shipmate ask me what the traveler controls and I told him - angle of attack. He said that's not what it controls. I said "OK, then what does it control?". I couldn't believe the answer he gave me. He said "I don't know!!".
geez...that's unbelievable. heh, heh.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
...and they call themselves 'sailors' :eek: sheeeesh! How can ANYONE consider himself a sailor if he doesn't understand the basic controls and what they do? :ass:
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Whoa guys,
The 525 is a classic 'pocket rocket' and the more you heel one over the faster she will go, like do the ILYA scows. The 525 will gain almost 3 ft. of LWL when heeled to ~20° .... and if properly set up can PLANE when on a beat!!!! Its a 25 footer with an ~84 Portsmouth Yardstick rating !!!!!!) ... not a slug for its LWL.

He's apparently actively racing the boat.

Soooooooo .......... if the 2 boats are racing in a mixed PHRF fleet, one of the best methods to optimize would be a friendly agreement to 'trial horse' the 2 boats, and then with blank 'data pad' in hand on the boat being optimized while the other boat sails a steady single course without any 'adjustment' ... start accumulating data for small changes in trim /sail shape / crew position / slot opening distance (the 'bigger' the jib the more 'open' the slot, etc. / rudder angle / heeling angle .... and analyse the recorded data to arrive at 'whats wrong', what changes are needed .... and maybe a 'jib swap' or two between the two boats. Collecting, recording and analyzing the data between two friendly (when not actually racing each other) equal boats is the 'fastest' way to improve the performance of 'both' .... mindful that it usually starts with all the tell tales 'flying perfectly' and the helm only generating 'finger tip' pressure when on a beat.

jpallen01 - Anchor Marina? travelled to Worton Crk, MD, this past summer? ... and if you are planning a return visit with your 'group', perhaps we can 'arrange a meet' and a 'look see'. ....... Im the 'monster' beige boat on the close end of the bulkhead)
 
May 23, 2007
1,306
Catalina Capri 22 Albany, Oregon
I'll buy the part about footing off. I spent half the summer trying to point with the wavelength 24's on our lake. Couldn't do it, even running my blade which sheets to the cabin top. Last few beer cans I didn't try to point as high and managed to stay closer. Still can't keep up with them but at least I'm not completely embarrassed by them now.
 
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