Jib sheets

[jviss]

Really?

Chris, your comment about rudeness and ignorance doesn't help the debate. Your points are nonsense. I haven't ever seen a reference for the sheet bend as a knot for attaching a sheet to the clew of sail, in any historical context. It certainly wasn't so in the days of wooden ships and iron men. (Small point: a "clew line" is a line used for shortening sail, not for attaching a sheet).I have, however, much experience and many references for the bowline. See Colgate's classic "Sailing, Cruising, and Racing," copyright 1978. At that time, it was already well established, common practice. I'm not sure I can reconcile your mention of the "old way" with your age - and by the way, doing something in an obscure, clumsy or antiquated way for a long time doesn't make it right or good. I know many guys your age and older who have sailed around the world, and I've learned a bit from them. I've sail boats from 13' to 53', all sloops save one, over the last 40 years, and all I've ever seen for attaching sheets to a headsail is the bowline. But others' experience is obviously more diverse. But hey, it's your boat, do it your way! In answer to the original question, I would recommend not splicing the sheets into the clew cringle, but to tie them using a bowline, as is the most common practice.

 

[Herb Parsons]

Another Question on Shackles

OK, I understand (and agree with) the point on shackles on the end of the jib being dangerous.But, I've been planning (haven't done it yet) on using a shackle when I replace my sheets; except that instead of permenantly tying it to the sail(s), my plan was to tie the shackle to the sheets, and attach it the sail as needed.I probably should qualify some, I don't race my boat, and don't plan on racing it. I have two headsails, a 150 and a 110. Both are hanked on.Seems to me that in this case, a flailing jib could be controlled by grabbing the sheet. If the sheet wasn't attached, there'd be no shackle on the end of the sail to hit anyone.I'd really like thoughts an input on this one. I haven't replaced anything yet, but think that in my case, one set of sheets for both sails is the better plan.

 

[jviss]

Still can cause damage!

Herb, that shackle on the clew could beat the heck out of your boat, even just tacking. It could damage the gel coat, the standing rigging, etc., etc.

 

[Mike M16608]

Experience

So, among this crew of mostly lake sailors and coastal cruisers, has anybody ever actually been whacked by a shackle at the end of a flogging jib? Has a shackle opened up and blown off the jib/genny? What was the outcome? I'm not trying to be snarky. We use a shackle on a hanked on jib. We use the same sheets when we switch down to our storm jib. When we are done for the day, the shackle gets detached and the jib sheet (I'll admit to one continuous line) gets stored below. The jib gets flaked on deck as best we can while still hanked on (the jib downhaul helps)and stowed in it's bag, around the forestay. The admiral loves storing our lines out of UV and rain while docked. The admiral detests movements that add time to departure and arrival/putting the boat to sleep, even if it's just fussing around with a couple of knots. Flame away.

 

[Rick Webb]

I Have a Shackle on Mine

I agree it has the potential for damage on some boats. With the fractional rig and the small jib on my boat I really do not think it is an issue. I keep my jib in a sail bag so it is very much worth the small hazard. On a different boat with a larger jib it might be a different story. I use one line and a larks head on the shackle.

 

[jviss]

Experience

Do you mean has anyone personally been hit, or has anyone in the world every been hit? I know of lost teeth, lost eyes, concusions and lacerations. Not on me, though. It does depend on the size of the boat, of course. I wouldn't know where I would get a big enough shackle for the clew on my 135% offshore genny on the C36 - I'm sure you could get one, and it would probably be over $100. Also, it probably be one that can be released under tension.But I still wouldn't do it. Tying hte sheets into the clew is just so simple, fast and secure - a beautiful thing.

 

[Mike M16608]

Experience

Hi jviss. I was wondering about the folks here, specifically. I'm sure it's happened, but like a lot of things that have potential negative consequences, we balance risk/reward (convenience in this case) and make our choice. The whole tone of the thread was getting pretty self-righteous, that's why I posed the question....hope I didn't make it worse. Nothing like a bunch of guys arguing about who ties the better knot, who has the better anchor....etc. No wonder a lot of the girls don't want to play with us I'll agree that boat size is probably an important factor, and I have a small boat with a stock 110 jib with a high cut clew, so I'm not seeing it from a big boat perspective. But I'll bet Rick and I are not the only "shacklers" here!

 

[jviss]

Agreed

I'm sure lots of folks use shackles and never have an issue with it. But I'm not going to get to the point of advocating it, I think it's dangerous, except perhpas on very small boats, where it might just hurt if you got smacked. Doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Herb Parsons]

THANK YOU Mike

You got the point of my question, as well as the reason I posted my particulars.BTW, it's a 25' boat (O'Day), mostly lake sailed, and the sheet lines will likely never need to be released under load.An observations/questions. I don't see how releasing a shackle under load would be any more difficult than untying two lines under load. Comments?As for "fast and simple", that, of course, varies from boat to boat/person to person.I have lots of times where folks new to sailing want to help. I don't want to teach them to tie a knot, nor do I want to put them in the position of "No, just stay out of the way, we do everything ourselves"My thought was:"Yes, release that shackle at the end of the red and green lines, roll up the sail, and put it in the bag, then hand me the lines, we'll store them below"I like to make sailing a social event.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Historical References?

Does anyone have a reference for using a sheet bend and clew line to attach sheets?I searched for such a reference last night and could not find a single one.Thanks

 

[Peter]

shackled clews

I have had an encounter with a loose shackle on a flailing jib. Shortly after tacking, the sheet came loose from the jib. I thought the snap shackle opened, but I also noticed the working end of the line had worked its bowline out, somehow (by the way, this was the only instance of a bowline loosening itself that I have ever seen). I made my way up to the foredeck to get control of the sail to reattach the sheet. I found the shackle still attached when it clocked my cheekbone splitting my face open and leaving me with a large bruise for a few weeks. The shackles are dangerous and for the possibility of them coming loose (snap shackles, in particular) or the knots coming undone make them just more of something to go wrong when least desirable. After this incident, I advocate bowlines for the sheets (KISS principle). In hindsight, I suppose tacking back would have made my life alot easier, but I feel that is beside the point. That's what I use on my Oday 22, and we use that on the Columbia 10.7 I crew. Shackles are useful on racers or other boats that use the same sheets through sail changes, for the sake of speed, though I believe them to be more detrimental in light air. Anyway, to avoid the risk of knots loosening and since the sheets are not being changed or moved around themselves, I would say it is best to attach the shackles with to the sheets with an eyesplice. My $.02.

 

[Alan]

Never never never use .....

...snap shackles on genoa sheets. Either tie a knot or use J locks. Snap shackles are too prone to open on a flogging sail besides the fact that they are just plain too heavy.Also being hit by a flailing knot is bad enough, getting hit with a snap shackle is criminal.

 

[capn jim]

everyone has their own preferences

personally i think the bowline is the way to go, with separate sheets. pluses include but not limited to. no shackle to hit the mast or standing rigging on tacks. clew on sail if it hits you, is a lot less damaging to you than one with a shackle on the end. even if the clew gets hung up on a shroud or some fitting on the mast its a soft line as opposed to a piece of protruding metal. the loop that you have where you tie your bowline is the perfect place to attach your whisker pole or spin pole if your running or off the wind. i have sailed for about 30 yrs and i've never had a bowline come untied when it was locked properly. the other thing is that under heavy load a snap shackle can't be opened, unless you buy those expensive ones that cost about $125 each. one other thing about shackles is that in case of an entanglement (it does happen) bowline can be untied and easily rerun back through any deck hardware where as one with a shackle may not be so easy without completely re running it from the back forward.snap shackles on spin sheets are a different matter. but they are used in a completely different manner.my nickols worth.s/v Que Pasa?

 

[Alan]

capn jim

I agree with most of your post. Where I disagree is with your placement of the spinnaker pole. Both the whisker pole and spinnaker poles need to be attached OUTSIDE the loop on the sheet. This way the guy (sheet) can run free if need be. On a reach, the pole can go no further forward than the headstay. If the pole is effectively tied to the clew of the sail this can lead to disastrous consequences.I agree those "expensive" J locks cost way too much but they never open no matter how hard they are flogged and due to their size and shape they feed through the turning blocks. The plus with them is that they will instantly release from your spinnaker under load. The only way to instantly release a bowline under load is a knife.

 

[filthy liberal scum]

Alan; i think there's a bit of confusion here!

If we're talking a pole on a spin, yes the pole is on the line behind the shackle. if we're talking about poling out the gennie then it should be in the loop. that way you can control the shape of it and keep it out to its fullest. if its on the line it can ride back and actually pull the gennie in closer to the boat. also some times you want the pole on the same side as the boom. this will keep a better shape and result in better boat speed on certain points of sail. in this manner its really a barber hauler. racing rules no longer require that the pole, be it spin or whisker be set on opposite side of the boom except when gybing.what i was referring to is set the pole in the loop only with the gennie. sometimes its better to set a spin pole on the gennie so that you can use the topping lift to hold the clew up in light air to offset the weight of the pole and lines. hope this clears it up. try it this way and you'll like it.s/v Que Pasa?

 

[Alan]

capn jim

Thanks for the explanation. I concur on the genny but we do use a topping lift with the whisker pole too for that very reason.Given the advantage of the J Locks over a bowline on spinn sheets I would opt for them even though they are too damn expensive.

 

[filthy liberal scum]

alan; still confusion!

we do have all our spin sheets set up with snap shackles. we have 4 different sets. ranging in size from 7/16" down to string. its a bitch when the air is so light that you are using string for light air sheets to keep the lines from weighting down the clew on the kite. sucks to be sailing in such light air. Que Pasa?PS we also have used the topping lift on the whisker, but it has very limited use. its a telescoping 18' pole that is very thin out at the end. you know, one of those lousy twist lock things that have the time it doesn't want to lock properly. someday I'm going to get one of those line extended types.

 

[Wandering Cs]

Rudeness and ignorance

*boxChris, reply #17"Rudeness and ignorance" As well as stupidity!These traits are becoming very prevalent on this site. Why? JohnWandering C's

 

[Kevin3447]

Tylaska Spool "shackle"

If you want to use a shackle, rather than a knot, check these out: http://www.tylaska.com/spooldirection.htmlI've been hit in the face by a flogging genny clew with knots, and that hurt enough - I definately wouldn't want to get hit with a j-lock. At least these spools are plastic, and only weigh an ounce or two, depending on the size. And they're about $30-40.Sail on,Kevin

 

[Brian D]

If you answered his question...

Say *yes* and then tell us where you answered the question.Mike Casucci, I use a single sheet with a loop at the clew and figure eight knots at each bitter end, after I run them through the blocks.