Jib Halyard Overide on Winch...
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How in the world do you get an over-ride on a halyard sheet when you are using a winch handle? And how do you get so much tension with such a small sail that you can't simply pull it out?
The only times I have ever experienced over-rides is when pulling a long length of sheet very rapidly across the winch with multiple wraps, say when I am reeling in a genny on a windy day when the wind whips the sail out too far. Even then, I've never had an over-ride that I couldn't simply let loose (I may not have optimal friction on the winch drum).
The only times I have ever experienced over-rides is when pulling a long length of sheet very rapidly across the winch with multiple wraps, say when I am reeling in a genny on a windy day when the wind whips the sail out too far. Even then, I've never had an over-ride that I couldn't simply let loose (I may not have optimal friction on the winch drum).
Peterc has this nailed ... ROLLING HITCH, even a rolling hitch with many many wraps may be needed to relieve the strain on the line that around the winch..
The prevention, and this applies to ALL winches, is that the line TO the winch must 'always' be led at an angle that LOWER than the winch itself. 'Nutherwords the sheet or halyard must always be led FROM a block or sheeve that is lower than the base of the winch; lead the line higher than the base and a good proportion of the time you will wind up with an over-ride.
FWIW - On a boat such as a C22, a large Harken hexa-ratchet mounted to or near the base of the mast would probably be better for 'sail and halyard work' as it simply cant jam nor override as can a winch. To get high sheet or halyard tension with a hexa-ratchet you 'worry' or 'sweat' the line .... pulling the line at a 90 degree angle parallel to the lines direction while holding the line in the hexaratchet with the other hand to develop the friction for the hexa to not slip during the 'sweating', ... taking up the strain in small increments until you get the tension you need.
When 'sweating' or 'worrying' a line, if you keep the sideways deflection when you push or pull at less than 10°, you get ten times the force in the line for every pound force that you pull/push the line 'sideways'.
Scott, you might want to go back to the post above yours. He seemed to have run the halyard aft to his jib sheet winch, with a lead that was above the winch, causing the override.
Or did I miss something yet again?
I did think of that after Rich mentioned it, but, I guess what I am wondering about is how he pulled enough line to cause an over-ride when the sail was already up and he was just tightening it. Besides that, working a winch handle, the sheet would be wrapping slowly. With a handle, I would normally be tailing the line with one hand and cranking with the other ... there isn't any chance of getting an over-ride since the line is highly tensioned and working much more slowly.
I think of getting over-rides only when rapidly sheeting in a lot of line with little tension on the line ... a situation where it might be hand over hand and there is no use for a winch handle. I guess that's my question?
I think of getting over-rides only when rapidly sheeting in a lot of line with little tension on the line ... a situation where it might be hand over hand and there is no use for a winch handle. I guess that's my question?
Yes but very little that needs to be worked ... maybe he manually wrapped the winch drum with an over-ride some how?
Could he have started the wrap at the top and worked down before applying tension with the winch handle?
Could he have started the wrap at the top and worked down before applying tension with the winch handle?
Could very well be the case.Scott T-Bird said:
And Stu, yes, you're right. I must have had plenty of halyard left to go to the leeward winch.
All, please note the word "panic" in my OP. in those situations, I don't always think of all possible solutions.
I discovered last night that I can sufficiently tension the jib luff using brute strength with my feet against the cabin bulkhead; at least for now. After all I am on the plus side of sixty now. :-(
GT, when reading these posts ...
I always try to visualize the problem, or in this cas, I try to figure out how you got into such a predicament!
What really baffles me is that you were only trying to raise the sail a few more inches, so it seems improbable to me that you could get an over-ride by wrapping the sheet conventionally and turning with the winch handle. But somehow you did it!
Now that you got into this predicament, I don't see how attaching a second line with a rolling hitch and pulling it tight with another winch would help because I presume that the head of the sail must have been fully-raised and the halyard completely tensioned. You would not be able to relieve the pressure off the offending winch unless you yanked the head of the sail through the sheave and/or pulled the tack off the bow!
Since you eased the tension simply by releasing the tack when you were at the slip, I think you probably could have done that originally without any ill-effect. If the tack was released while the sail was filled, what harm would it do? It's not going anywhere if the head and all the hanks are still attached.
It seems to me that the only way the prescribed method works is if there is room to pull the offending sheet tighter at the working end. This works when trying to free a genny sheet because you can feasibly pull the working end tighter (to ease pressure on the tail end) unless you already have the genny sheeted so tightly that any additional pressure would rip the clew out of the sail.
I am also confused as to why an over-ride can't simply be freed by letting the sheet loose ... I do this all the time with my genny. I get over-rides frequently when I have to sheet in rapidly and don't have enough hands to do everything! Maybe it is because there is little friction on my winch drums. When I get an over-ride, I simply let the sheet slip through my hand until its freed, then I have to reel it back in. I'll have to study this phenomena a little more carefully ... the working end of the sheet is well below the winch and I still get them.
What happens is that when I pull the sheet rapidly when it is wound around the drum, the wraps slide down to the base of the drum (loosely) and then when tension is suddenly applied by the sail filling with air, the lower wraps jump over the upper wraps so that the entire wrap is on the drum, except with the lower wraps over-riding the tail end. It always slips off easily, though, as soon as I let the tail end slip through my fingers.
I always try to visualize the problem, or in this cas, I try to figure out how you got into such a predicament!
What really baffles me is that you were only trying to raise the sail a few more inches, so it seems improbable to me that you could get an over-ride by wrapping the sheet conventionally and turning with the winch handle. But somehow you did it!
Now that you got into this predicament, I don't see how attaching a second line with a rolling hitch and pulling it tight with another winch would help because I presume that the head of the sail must have been fully-raised and the halyard completely tensioned. You would not be able to relieve the pressure off the offending winch unless you yanked the head of the sail through the sheave and/or pulled the tack off the bow!
Since you eased the tension simply by releasing the tack when you were at the slip, I think you probably could have done that originally without any ill-effect. If the tack was released while the sail was filled, what harm would it do? It's not going anywhere if the head and all the hanks are still attached.
It seems to me that the only way the prescribed method works is if there is room to pull the offending sheet tighter at the working end. This works when trying to free a genny sheet because you can feasibly pull the working end tighter (to ease pressure on the tail end) unless you already have the genny sheeted so tightly that any additional pressure would rip the clew out of the sail.
I am also confused as to why an over-ride can't simply be freed by letting the sheet loose ... I do this all the time with my genny. I get over-rides frequently when I have to sheet in rapidly and don't have enough hands to do everything! Maybe it is because there is little friction on my winch drums. When I get an over-ride, I simply let the sheet slip through my hand until its freed, then I have to reel it back in. I'll have to study this phenomena a little more carefully ... the working end of the sheet is well below the winch and I still get them.
What happens is that when I pull the sheet rapidly when it is wound around the drum, the wraps slide down to the base of the drum (loosely) and then when tension is suddenly applied by the sail filling with air, the lower wraps jump over the upper wraps so that the entire wrap is on the drum, except with the lower wraps over-riding the tail end. It always slips off easily, though, as soon as I let the tail end slip through my fingers.
I agree with everything said in this post, Scott, and regarding the second paragraph, I refer you to the word "Murphy" in my OP.Scott T-Bird said:I always try to visualize the problem, or in this cas, I try to figure out how you got into such a predicament!
What really baffles me is that you were only trying to raise the sail a few more inches, so it seems improbable to me that you could get an over-ride by wrapping the sheet conventionally and turning with the winch handle. But somehow you did it!
Now that you got into this predicament, I don't see how attaching a second line with a rolling hitch and pulling it tight with another winch would help because I presume that the head of the sail must have been fully-raised and the halyard completely tensioned. You would not be able to relieve the pressure off the offending winch unless you yanked the head of the sail through the sheave and/or pulled the tack off the bow!
Since you eased the tension simply by releasing the tack when you were at the slip, I think you probably could have done that originally without any ill-effect. If the tack was released while the sail was filled, what harm would it do? It's not going anywhere if the head and all the hanks are still attached.
It seems to me that the only way the prescribed method works is if there is room to pull the offending sheet tighter at the working end. This works when trying to free a genny sheet because you can feasibly pull the working end tighter (to ease pressure on the tail end) unless you already have the genny sheeted so tightly that any additional pressure would rip the clew out of the sail.
I am also confused as to why an over-ride can't simply be freed by letting the sheet loose ... I do this all the time with my genny. I get over-rides frequently when I have to sheet in rapidly and don't have enough hands to do everything! Maybe it is because there is little friction on my winch drums. When I get an over-ride, I simply let the sheet slip through my hand until its freed, then I have to reel it back in. I'll have to study this phenomena a little more carefully ... the working end of the sheet is well below the winch and I still get them.
What happens is that when I pull the sheet rapidly when it is wound around the drum, the wraps slide down to the base of the drum (loosely) and then when tension is suddenly applied by the sail filling with air, the lower wraps jump over the upper wraps so that the entire wrap is on the drum, except with the lower wraps over-riding the tail end. It always slips off easily, though, as soon as I let the tail end slip through my fingers.
Murphy has a way ...
of figuring out how to make life difficult for you at exactly the wrong moment!
Alls well that ends well! You probably looked like you knew what you were doing all along! With just a little bit of a cocky attitude, most people will never guess that you were sweating the outcome.
of figuring out how to make life difficult for you at exactly the wrong moment!
Alls well that ends well! You probably looked like you knew what you were doing all along! With just a little bit of a cocky attitude, most people will never guess that you were sweating the outcome.
Can I confess that I too have had moments of panic? It was a result of a first few panicked moments that I started reading and thinking things and scenarios through. This to try to prepare for bad situations.
You will hopefully never totally avoid fear; it is fear that hopefully keeps folly in check. If you are never scared, you are probably unduly ignorant of the danger that is always so near. Panic is one way to respond but experience brings familiarity, and time will bring options other than panic.
The time you calmly take action and execute a set of decisions that bring calm to chaos will be a very memorable and rewarding moment. Cherish it when it happens!
Btw, I too once over-wrapped a halyard on a sheet winch.... That is a panic moment... I know........ Bet you won't do it again... I won't
You will hopefully never totally avoid fear; it is fear that hopefully keeps folly in check. If you are never scared, you are probably unduly ignorant of the danger that is always so near. Panic is one way to respond but experience brings familiarity, and time will bring options other than panic.
The time you calmly take action and execute a set of decisions that bring calm to chaos will be a very memorable and rewarding moment. Cherish it when it happens!
Btw, I too once over-wrapped a halyard on a sheet winch...
. That is a panic moment... I know........ Bet you won't do it again... I won't I get overrides in exactly the same way while trying to do fast tacks during races. BUT when the working part of the line comes under tension, it is TIGHT ! Sometimes it can be pulled free by hand, but if not then the the rolling hitch is needed to take the tension off to clear the override. I don't understand how you can just ease the tail, since an override is basically a messy hitch tied around the winch. Maybe it's a question of loads, winch size or line diameter. Most of my experience is with highly loaded 10-12mm line on 40-45 foot boats.
Todd
PS, the ways I find that reduce the overrides are:
1) less wraps, but this requires a pause to add wraps after the 'easy' slack is taken in.
2) start grinding the winch as soon as the slack is being tailed.
3) adjust your techinique so that the slack is coming in at a steady pace, not a fast-slow-fast-slow variation as you take each armfull. It is the slowing of the winch drum after a fast arm pull that allows the wraps to drop.
The angle you strip the tail is what causes overides. You must keep the tail above the level of the topmost wrap, otherwise the tail will push the wraps down underneath the incoming line. That's why it's easier to strip the line in with fewer wraps on the drum.
So......it would make sense to put a minimum number of wraps on the drum at first, then add more wraps just before you insert the winch handle.
Standard winches are less prone to overides than ST winches... becauses sailors are apt to load on max wraps with ST models than standard. Also the ST gripper cap can inhibit the lines upward egress, while the standard top piece offers a cleaner exit..
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I think you guys are talking about overides occurring while sheetin in headsail sheets. What I was originally talking about was an override that occurred while attempting to tighten a jib halyard with a cockpit mounted winch.
Just to clarify...
Just to clarify...
Because the entry point of the line is above the winch. It must be below the drum to avoid wrap.
BTW, Once wrapped, it is next to impossible to un-do. You can get into iron to easy the load. Sometimes may have to reverse the tail of the line to another winch to help unwind.
BTW, Once wrapped, it is next to impossible to un-do. You can get into iron to easy the load. Sometimes may have to reverse the tail of the line to another winch to help unwind.
You're right. heh, heh. That's a particularly difficult feat and requires careful planning.
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