Peggie, as I started reading your postings too late, my 1 year old head’s joker valve has failed on me resulting in intermittent but substantial back flow after, or during, the flushing process. I don’t know if the valve is broken, has lost its elasticity or has collected debris but I don’t want to go through the not-odorless and likely messy surgery without having a spare part to fix it. I was amazed to read in your forum that you can buy a brand new head for 2x what you pay for the rebuild kit (~$50). Given the relatively small difference, it did not seem a bad investment to buy a new head considering that it will avoid the need to deal with its internal parts. However, with some research I found that WM ( $9 special order) and BoatUS ($8 web catalog) sell the head joker valve alone. Seems to me, a saving of $90 may be worth the surgical trauma. What do you think?
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I think you need more than a joker valve
You need to find out what's causing the "substantial backflow" that the joke valve isn't keeping out of the bowl. There shouldn't BE that much backflow...half a cup maybe, and then only if the head discharge hose runs uphill to the tank or up and over a vented loop. Is your tank vent blocked, pressurizing the system, creating backflow? Is there so much mineral buildup in the hose that it's restricting the flow? Replacing the joker valve without finding out WHY there's backflow is like fixing a dripping faucet by sticking a plug in it. Cure the backflow...THEN replace the joker valve (or the whole toilet).
You need to find out what's causing the "substantial backflow" that the joke valve isn't keeping out of the bowl. There shouldn't BE that much backflow...half a cup maybe, and then only if the head discharge hose runs uphill to the tank or up and over a vented loop. Is your tank vent blocked, pressurizing the system, creating backflow? Is there so much mineral buildup in the hose that it's restricting the flow? Replacing the joker valve without finding out WHY there's backflow is like fixing a dripping faucet by sticking a plug in it. Cure the backflow...THEN replace the joker valve (or the whole toilet).
It is caused by a poor French design
Peggy tanks for your prompt replay. No, the vent is not blocked and there is no flow restriction. You would be correct in most cases but this is a Beneteau 361 that has the holding tank with the tube connecting about 4 ft above the base of the head. To make things worse, the tank is only 13 Gals and, if one wants to flush the tube from the head to the tank with clean water after using it one would fill up the tank in two sittings. So, no matter what you do, after flushing there is always quite a bit of stuff (half a bowl) remaining on the tube.
Peggy tanks for your prompt replay. No, the vent is not blocked and there is no flow restriction. You would be correct in most cases but this is a Beneteau 361 that has the holding tank with the tube connecting about 4 ft above the base of the head. To make things worse, the tank is only 13 Gals and, if one wants to flush the tube from the head to the tank with clean water after using it one would fill up the tank in two sittings. So, no matter what you do, after flushing there is always quite a bit of stuff (half a bowl) remaining on the tube.
In THAT case...
Put a loop in the head discharge hose immediately after the toilet that makes it downhill to the tank from the top of the loop. And read "Flush With Success" in the HM forum reference library to learn how to keep the hose clean without filling up the holding tank.
Put a loop in the head discharge hose immediately after the toilet that makes it downhill to the tank from the top of the loop. And read "Flush With Success" in the HM forum reference library to learn how to keep the hose clean without filling up the holding tank.
I keep a copy behind the head
Peggie, I keep a copy of your article for new users to read. The tube connecting the head to the holding tank enters the tank from the top and already makes the suggested loop. The tube length, however is over 4 ft and always remains with water, more or less dirty, depending on the number of flushing strokes used.
Peggie, I keep a copy of your article for new users to read. The tube connecting the head to the holding tank enters the tank from the top and already makes the suggested loop. The tube length, however is over 4 ft and always remains with water, more or less dirty, depending on the number of flushing strokes used.
Joker valve solved my problem
Jose, I had the same problem with my 361 and replaced the Joker valve relatively easy... I had the tank pumped and filled the bowl with water several times while they were pumping. Then removed the screws on the back of the valve. The Joker valve was not at all sealing and when replaced we have had no problems since... Good luck and keep your 1 gal shop vac handy. Kevin
Jose, I had the same problem with my 361 and replaced the Joker valve relatively easy... I had the tank pumped and filled the bowl with water several times while they were pumping. Then removed the screws on the back of the valve. The Joker valve was not at all sealing and when replaced we have had no problems since... Good luck and keep your 1 gal shop vac handy. Kevin
Only 4 feet from the head to the tank???
Jose, you don't really have a problem that isn't mostly of your own making. It's VERY easy to keep a head discharge hose that short clean and empty without filling up the tank. And how to do it is described in detail in "Flush With Success." Btw...just leaving a copy in the head for guests is not the recommended head use instruction method. If 99% of boat owners don't bother to read directions for operating and maintaining their marine toilets, how can you expect a guest to even know what instructions look like?
Jose, you don't really have a problem that isn't mostly of your own making. It's VERY easy to keep a head discharge hose that short clean and empty without filling up the tank. And how to do it is described in detail in "Flush With Success." Btw...just leaving a copy in the head for guests is not the recommended head use instruction method. If 99% of boat owners don't bother to read directions for operating and maintaining their marine toilets, how can you expect a guest to even know what instructions look like?
How do you empty it up hill??
Peggie, the reading comes after an initial practical demonstration and the users are always tested following the reading and prior of their first use. Usually this curriculum tends to result in constipation in most of my one-day guests. Yes is only 4 or 5 ft in length but most of it is up hill. I try to pump air after the head is empty, but you can pump water up hill on a 1.5 in tube. The air just bubbles through leaving most of the liquid behind. Also, air partially worked while the joke valve was functional, as it began to fail, I had the bad surprise of a fast reflux of stuff that almost reach my face $#@&^!!. Since then, I decided it was too risky to empty the tube with air. Thanks for your advice Kevin. I will replace the valve as soon as it is mailed to me.
Peggie, the reading comes after an initial practical demonstration and the users are always tested following the reading and prior of their first use. Usually this curriculum tends to result in constipation in most of my one-day guests. Yes is only 4 or 5 ft in length but most of it is up hill. I try to pump air after the head is empty, but you can pump water up hill on a 1.5 in tube. The air just bubbles through leaving most of the liquid behind. Also, air partially worked while the joke valve was functional, as it began to fail, I had the bad surprise of a fast reflux of stuff that almost reach my face $#@&^!!. Since then, I decided it was too risky to empty the tube with air. Thanks for your advice Kevin. I will replace the valve as soon as it is mailed to me.
"Dry" SHOULD be able to move waste that far
If it can't, something is preventing it--a blocked tank vent (do you hear a hissing in the head during pumpout? If so, that means the tank isn't getting enough air--maybe none--through the vent.)...mineral buildup in the hose that's creating backpressure...or the seals in the pump may be too worn--the pump is leaking air internally. 5' of 1.5" hose can't hold but about 2 cupfuls of liquid, most of which should make it into the tank. Any more than about half a cup backing up into the bowl means something is preventing the waste from getting there.
If it can't, something is preventing it--a blocked tank vent (do you hear a hissing in the head during pumpout? If so, that means the tank isn't getting enough air--maybe none--through the vent.)...mineral buildup in the hose that's creating backpressure...or the seals in the pump may be too worn--the pump is leaking air internally. 5' of 1.5" hose can't hold but about 2 cupfuls of liquid, most of which should make it into the tank. Any more than about half a cup backing up into the bowl means something is preventing the waste from getting there.
My calculations show...
that 50 inches of 1.5 in ID hose holds about 0.4 gals. Thats a considerable amount of potential back-flow - a lot more than 2 cupfuls. Also a 4 ft head of water is a considerable pressure on the joker valve. Unless you really blast it, I cannot see how pumping small bursts of air in DRY mode will clear a vertical pipe. Surely it will just bubble up, leaving the vast bulk of the fluid intact. Derek
that 50 inches of 1.5 in ID hose holds about 0.4 gals. Thats a considerable amount of potential back-flow - a lot more than 2 cupfuls. Also a 4 ft head of water is a considerable pressure on the joker valve. Unless you really blast it, I cannot see how pumping small bursts of air in DRY mode will clear a vertical pipe. Surely it will just bubble up, leaving the vast bulk of the fluid intact. Derek
?????
4 feet of vertical hose??? Where IS your tank??? The pressure is more continuous than you think...but worn seals and pumps can really make a BIG difference. However, you're right...there's not a toilet made that can push water 4 feet straight up on the "dry" setting OR the "flush" setting. Otoh, no tank should be located 4' straight up from the toilet, either.
4 feet of vertical hose??? Where IS your tank??? The pressure is more continuous than you think...but worn seals and pumps can really make a BIG difference. However, you're right...there's not a toilet made that can push water 4 feet straight up on the "dry" setting OR the "flush" setting. Otoh, no tank should be located 4' straight up from the toilet, either.
Take a look at Jose's response...
... entitled "It is caused by a poor French design", where he states that the tank is about 4 ft above the base of the head. What can I say? Derek
... entitled "It is caused by a poor French design", where he states that the tank is about 4 ft above the base of the head. What can I say? Derek
Derek, ,how tough would it be...
to relocate the tank? But first, where's the head in your boat--forward behind the v-berth, or at the aft end of the cabin? And how big is the tank...gallons?
to relocate the tank? But first, where's the head in your boat--forward behind the v-berth, or at the aft end of the cabin? And how big is the tank...gallons?
It's located behind the head
Derek was referring to my boat. In the 361, they have placed the tank behind the head (Just behind the white board to the right of the mirror in the photo) and the entrance of the tube into the tank is throught its top about 4 ft above the bottom of the head. NOT A GOOD DESIGN for sure. By pumping air at fast rate, I can move some of the fluid up the tank, but lately since the joker valve became unreliable, I stop doing that given the real danger of spraying my face with the stuff, as I explained before. I have also studied the boat for possible relocation and changing it for a larger tank and found that the tube would have to run over more than 10 ft to get there, plus, I would not be able to empty it without active pumping in that location. As you see, Peggie, I am stuck with this one and awaiting for a new joker valve.
Derek was referring to my boat. In the 361, they have placed the tank behind the head (Just behind the white board to the right of the mirror in the photo) and the entrance of the tube into the tank is throught its top about 4 ft above the bottom of the head. NOT A GOOD DESIGN for sure. By pumping air at fast rate, I can move some of the fluid up the tank, but lately since the joker valve became unreliable, I stop doing that given the real danger of spraying my face with the stuff, as I explained before. I have also studied the boat for possible relocation and changing it for a larger tank and found that the tube would have to run over more than 10 ft to get there, plus, I would not be able to empty it without active pumping in that location. As you see, Peggie, I am stuck with this one and awaiting for a new joker valve.
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Same configuration
I have a 36cc and have the same issue. The tank is in a locker in the head just aft of the toilet. The top of the tank is a good 3+ feet above the joker valve. I haven't had too much issue since replacing the joker valve and re-lubing the pump with Superlube, but there is often four or more inches of 'water' in the toilet from seeping back down the discharge hose.
I have a 36cc and have the same issue. The tank is in a locker in the head just aft of the toilet. The top of the tank is a good 3+ feet above the joker valve. I haven't had too much issue since replacing the joker valve and re-lubing the pump with Superlube, but there is often four or more inches of 'water' in the toilet from seeping back down the discharge hose.
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