J-flag when C22 racing. Is this a thing?

[Jackdaw]

Actually, I don't know that. I don't know the class rules for that boat. I didn't read those specific SI's. I don't know what weight is carried by a posting on the board in the absence of clarification in the SI. Do the class rules cover that?

I don't know for sure. As you know most SIs say that they can be amended by an official posting on the message board. I never found the SI's for the event (they are not were they said they were going to be, or where the NOR was) so I can't know for sure.

The class rules don't speak to any part of this, which I suppose is sensible.

 

[Jackdaw]

Yes...modifying the PHRF adjustment factors - such as credit for all cruising (Dacron) sails, roller furler, prop, and a few others. This is only being done for the cruising PHRF fleet with a base rate of 188 or higher, where you get a few boats that dominate the racing. So, inching up the ratings for most boats, and lowering the ratings for the few who consistently dominate to increase the competitiveness of the overall cruising boat fleet.

Are those more or less permanent? How do you deal with boats naturally getting better over time?

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Are those more or less permanent? How do you deal with boats naturally getting better over time?

Fairly permanent, except for any where I totally got it wrong. If a boat gets better and blow-away the entire fleet...then time to revisit and re-evaluate. My approach is the actively manage the PHRF ratings based on actual performance in the local fleet, rather than rely on PHRF ratings posted on website located a thousand miles away.

 

[Jackdaw]

Fairly permanent, except for any where I totally got it wrong. If a boat gets better and blow-away the entire fleet...then time to revisit and re-evaluate. My approach is the actively manage the PHRF ratings based on actual performance in the local fleet, rather than rely on PHRF ratings posted on website located a thousand miles away.

Good call. Due to active crew cross training and lots of seminar and OTW sessions, we often see boats climb the ranking ladder if they stay with it for a few years, getting better because they are racing better. Now the ratings boost is an adverse issue. The hard part is always making a boat's rating WORSE.

But its PHRF racing. It was born messy.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Good call. Due to active crew cross training and lots of seminar and OTW sessions, we often see boats climb the ranking ladder if they stay with it for a few years, getting better because they are racing better. Now the ratings boost is an adverse issue. The hard part is always making a boat's rating WORSE.

But its PHRF racing. It was born messy.

Thanks. When I told our Club racers that I want to "actively manage" the ratings, and not simply rely on PHRF ratings from a few other club sites, they expressed caution, but also agreement that it made sense. Especially since I had 7 years of scoring results (stats) as a good reference. Very few people want to get involved with adjusting PHRF ratings out of concern of negative feedback. But when you've built and earned the trust of the racers in the club, and they see you are trying to do the right thing, it is much easier. I will report back at the end of June on the results of the Spring Series to see if it worked.
The club's website is Eagle Creek Sailing Club at website www.ecsail.org if you are interested.

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks. When I told our Club racers that I want to "actively manage" the ratings, and not simply rely on PHRF ratings from a few other club sites, they expressed caution, but also agreement that it made sense. Especially since I had 7 years of scoring results (stats) as a good reference. Very few people want to get involved with adjusting PHRF ratings out of concern of negative feedback. But when you've built and earned the trust of the racers in the club, and they see you are trying to do the right thing, it is much easier. I will report back at the end of June on the results of the Spring Series to see if it worked.
The club's website is Eagle Creek Sailing Club at website www.ecsail.org if you are interested.

I'd be interested. I think there is real difference in how 'active management' might work.... are you managing real boat ratings, or handicapping skipper/crew. I guess a fleet has to agree on what the 'right thing' is. ;^) Our spin fleet would have a problem with the latter, but our non-spin fleet might be OK with that.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I'd be interested. I think there is real difference in how 'active management' might work.... are you managing real boat ratings, or handicapping skipper/crew. I guess a fleet has to agree on what the 'right thing' is. ;^) Our spin fleet would have a problem with the latter, but our non-spin fleet might be OK with that.

I am managing boat ratings.
We have a spinnaker fleet that consists mostly of J-boats. They use their one-design rating. I'm not touching that.
The cruising fleet is mostly JAM and maybe a spinnaker or two. It is the cruising JAM fleet that I am adjusting.
Here are the changes I made:
1. Adjusted Base PHRF rating +6, based on what is typically published by US Sailing and most other PHRF sites
2. Increased Inboard Propeller credit from 3 to 6 seconds
3. Maintain the 12 second credit for non-spinnaker
4. Maintain a 3 second credit for roller furler
5. Added a 6 second credit for using all Dacron cruising sails (JAM)
6. Allow 3 second credit if foresail is 130% to 145%
7. Allow 6 second credit if foresail is less than 130%.
A sample of the adjusted PHRF ratings are:
Catalina 22 Sport = 264 decreased from 270 ODR
Catalina 22 = 282
Catalina 25 = 261
Hunter 216 = 240
S2 7.3 = 261
S2 6.9 = 231
Precision 23 = 267
Seaward 26 = 264
Ranger 22 = 237
MacGregor 26 = 267
O'Day 23 = 276

Long story, but the C22 Sport and the Seaward 26 are my "scratch boats" for the JAM fleet. These two boats have been the top performers, and have also competed very effectively against the J-boat fleet when all boats shared same start. Can't really equalize the JAM and spinnaker fleets...but I can at least bring a little more balance over a period of many, many races.

 

[Jackdaw]

I am managing boat ratings.
We have a spinnaker fleet that consists mostly of J-boats. They use their one-design rating. I'm not touching that.
The cruising fleet is mostly JAM and maybe a spinnaker or two. It is the cruising JAM fleet that I am adjusting.
Here are the changes I made:
1. Adjusted Base PHRF rating +6, based on what is typically published by US Sailing and most other PHRF sites
2. Increased Inboard Propeller credit from 3 to 6 seconds
3. Maintain the 12 second credit for non-spinnaker
4. Maintain a 3 second credit for roller furler
5. Added a 6 second credit for using all Dacron cruising sails (JAM)
6. Allow 3 second credit if foresail is 130% to 145%
7. Allow 6 second credit if foresail is less than 130%.
A sample of the adjusted PHRF ratings are:
Catalina 22 Sport = 264 decreased from 270 ODR
Catalina 22 = 282
Catalina 25 = 261
Hunter 216 = 240
S2 7.3 = 261
S2 6.9 = 231
Precision 23 = 267
Seaward 26 = 264
Ranger 22 = 237
MacGregor 26 = 267
O'Day 23 = 276

Long story, but the C22 Sport and the Seaward 26 are my "scratch boats" for the JAM fleet. These two boats have been the top performers, and have also competed very effectively against the J-boat fleet when all boats shared same start. Can't really equalize the JAM and spinnaker fleets...but I can at least bring a little more balance over a period of many, many races.

We do like things.
ALL boats get an median average of 6 pre-selected USsailing fleet reported ratings as base rating
All boats that have WYC OD fleets sail with that base number, under their OD rules.
We are may extend that to any ISAF (worldsailing.org) designated OD boat.
We give credit to other boats for :
smaller than PHRF-max headsails
non-folding props and outboards that drag
No credit given for:
white sails
roller furlers
We give penalties for the normal things, ie
oversized sails
oversized poles

We never mix spin and non-spin. Ratings can never account for that.

The whole idea is to keep the ratings thing at arms length. In general, we're reluctant to give credit for the ability of the crew, or the condition of the boat/sails. But that makes it very hard to step into the spin fleet and do well. So we keep thinking about it.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

This most significant change I made was allowing a 6 second credit for all Dacron (JAM) sails. I wanted to do something so that JAM sailors don't think they have to go out and spend a $1K++ in order to be more competitive. It gives them a little boost, but I also state that if you want to be at the top of the fleet, you have to invest in good crew, good sails, have a well-prepared boat, and regularly race. I am willing to meet them half-way, but they need to do the rest.

 

[Jackdaw]

This most significant change I made was allowing a 6 second credit for all Dacron (JAM) sails. I wanted to do something so that JAM sailors don't think they have to go out and spend a $1K++ in order to be more competitive. It gives them a little boost, but I also state that if you want to be at the top of the fleet, you have to invest in good crew, good sails, have a well-prepared boat, and regularly race. I am willing to meet them half-way, but they need to do the rest.

The hard part there is now you have to think about rating the quality and condition of dacron sails. For the first year or so, they will probably will be almost as good as laminates in most conditions. Not being critical, just another thing to think about. Or what boats will complain about.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

True...Or, I don't think about it and stick to the decision "as is".