It is up to a jury now
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On Land and on Sea Same Cops
The cops ability to cover another cops butt without any morals is the same whether in a car or boat, or probably an airplane. Follow link to see Florida case. These bums need to be jailed for perjury at the very least. Maybe the goon cop in Fl. that hit the rear end of the "defendant", his 7th or 8th patrol car accident, needs some driving lessons! And maybe the goon cop in CA that rear ended the sailboat should go to jail for murder in addition to perjury.
Police car cameras don't lie, but did Fla. cops?
http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20090804/4a77c050_3ca6_15526200908041090598557
The cops ability to cover another cops butt without any morals is the same whether in a car or boat, or probably an airplane. Follow link to see Florida case. These bums need to be jailed for perjury at the very least. Maybe the goon cop in Fl. that hit the rear end of the "defendant", his 7th or 8th patrol car accident, needs some driving lessons! And maybe the goon cop in CA that rear ended the sailboat should go to jail for murder in addition to perjury.
Police car cameras don't lie, but did Fla. cops?
http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20090804/4a77c050_3ca6_15526200908041090598557
I do not know if owner of sailboat was aboard time, but appears to have been the case. If so, although guest was operating boat owner retained his position as captain and would have been responsible for safe operation of sailboat to include insuring proper running lights were on during time of darkness. However, this certainly appears to be situation where authorities are protecting one of their own and DA was undoubtedly under pressure to obtain conviction where accident resulted in fatality. I understand operator (defendant) of sailboat was found to have been intoxicated, but fail to see where that condition contributed to accident when by his own omission operator of powerboat was operating at speed of 40-45 mph on moonless evening on lake. We do not know if operator of powerboat was intoxicated at time, but his speed of operation would indicate a degree of recklessness greater than any negligence on part of operator of sailboat. Bottom line: If jury is left with any question as to whether sailboat's running lights were on at time of collision, the sailboat operator walks away. Personally, irrespective of that issue, I do not believe defense counsel is going to have a difficult time with this one!
status of case
The link is from the Santa Rose paper. It gives some details that others might want to read so that facts are clear. Zeehag, I know that Clear Lake is in CA. I lived in Lakeport for many years.
http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...-begins-in-deadly-Clear-Lake-boating-accident
The link is from the Santa Rose paper. It gives some details that others might want to read so that facts are clear. Zeehag, I know that Clear Lake is in CA. I lived in Lakeport for many years.
http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...-begins-in-deadly-Clear-Lake-boating-accident
Re: status of case
Rear end collisions in motor vehicles are always the fault of the overtaking vehicle. No exceptions. You just don't rearend somebody and blame them for being drunk.
That is the argument I would use were I on the jury.
Rear end collisions in motor vehicles are always the fault of the overtaking vehicle. No exceptions. You just don't rearend somebody and blame them for being drunk.
That is the argument I would use were I on the jury.
Absolutely not true. You cannot just slam on your brakes for no reason, have someone rear end you and not share in some of the blame. Call your insurance company and they will confirm this.
Poll Results
The poll results here on SBO are telling in that 92% blame the powerboat owner. I am a little disappointed that the 92% is not "all of the above". A large percentage of blame goes to the powerboat operator. In my opinion the results indicate a misunderstanding of navigational laws and in particular boating under the influence laws.. The sailboat operator should have never been operating the boat with a blood alcohol level over the legal limit. The sail boat owner's level was apparently even higher if the reported info is correct. When are we going to learn AT NO TIME should anyone operate a vehicle/vessel while under the influence of alcohol or get in a vehicle or vessel being operated by anyone who is.
Very rarely is any accident 100% one operators fault,and all parties in this case share a percentage of blame. The reported info says the powerboat's insurance gave the powerboat 80% blame. I might even have gone a little bit higher personally.
I have a hard time as most do with the charges brought against Dinius and feel they are overly zealous by the prosecutor. I think he ( the prosecutor ) is WRONG. Maybe even criminally and civilly wrong. I have faith in the jury system Dinius would have been found not guilty of the manslaughter charges and that is why they were dropped. The boating under the influence charges may be another story. I truly hope the powerboat operator is charged criminally and or at least civilly charged also. This case should have been taken to a marine admiralty court as well in my opinion..
The poll results here on SBO are telling in that 92% blame the powerboat owner. I am a little disappointed that the 92% is not "all of the above". A large percentage of blame goes to the powerboat operator. In my opinion the results indicate a misunderstanding of navigational laws and in particular boating under the influence laws.. The sailboat operator should have never been operating the boat with a blood alcohol level over the legal limit. The sail boat owner's level was apparently even higher if the reported info is correct. When are we going to learn AT NO TIME should anyone operate a vehicle/vessel while under the influence of alcohol or get in a vehicle or vessel being operated by anyone who is.
Very rarely is any accident 100% one operators fault,and all parties in this case share a percentage of blame. The reported info says the powerboat's insurance gave the powerboat 80% blame. I might even have gone a little bit higher personally.
I have a hard time as most do with the charges brought against Dinius and feel they are overly zealous by the prosecutor. I think he ( the prosecutor ) is WRONG. Maybe even criminally and civilly wrong. I have faith in the jury system Dinius would have been found not guilty of the manslaughter charges and that is why they were dropped. The boating under the influence charges may be another story. I truly hope the powerboat operator is charged criminally and or at least civilly charged also. This case should have been taken to a marine admiralty court as well in my opinion..
Blame to go around
Ross,
The Calif. code is very clear, if you are operating a vehicle while over the limit and are involved in an accident, the accident may not be your fault, however you are still guilty of operating under the influance. May not agree with the law, but that is the legal standard... Just to be clear, I think that both operators share responsibility. A power boat going to fast on a dark night, and a sailboat being operated by an owner and a helmsman who were both over the limit. Bad choices on both parts.
Ross,
The Calif. code is very clear, if you are operating a vehicle while over the limit and are involved in an accident, the accident may not be your fault, however you are still guilty of operating under the influance. May not agree with the law, but that is the legal standard... Just to be clear, I think that both operators share responsibility. A power boat going to fast on a dark night, and a sailboat being operated by an owner and a helmsman who were both over the limit. Bad choices on both parts.
Tim, in a way, you are correct. If you slam on the breaks and get rear ended, you might get cited for something and if you're legally under the influence, you will get a DUI/DWI. The rear end collision however, remains the fault of the rear-ender. It is the motor vehicle operator's responsibility to maintain sufficient following distance to avoid a collision. If you rear end someone, by definition you were either too close. or not paying attention and therefor, at fault.
I also think it's time to send this to the Sails Call Lounge
I also think it's time to send this to the Sails Call Lounge
Agreed operating DUI is wrong but in this case the outcome would have been the same as a sober skipper at the helm. What would you have done differently??
This entire thing is 100% the power boaters fault and responsibility. The ONLY reason it is getting attention is a result of a corrupt political system.
This entire thing is 100% the power boaters fault and responsibility. The ONLY reason it is getting attention is a result of a corrupt political system.
I disagree, I would like to see this thread stay put until there is a verdict at least... we've gone this long here.
"What would you have done differently??
This entire thing is 100% the power boaters fault and responsibility. "
ALAN, I disagree......... Had the sailboat operator been sober he may have had a proper lookout and maybe he himself may have noticed the powerboat and it's loud noise and lights as the people on shore had done. Remember this happened on a lake at night. Sound carries especially at night. Most power boats (especially the "cigarette type " that this was can be heard long before they are seen). A proper,sober and alert look out and boat operator may have changed the outcome of this situation. While I think the powerboat gets 95% blame here I got to think had all basic navigation rules been used, including knowing if the sailboats navagation light were or were not on, it could have been a different outcome. Guess we will never know.Blame on both sides.
This entire thing is 100% the power boaters fault and responsibility. "
ALAN, I disagree......... Had the sailboat operator been sober he may have had a proper lookout and maybe he himself may have noticed the powerboat and it's loud noise and lights as the people on shore had done. Remember this happened on a lake at night. Sound carries especially at night. Most power boats (especially the "cigarette type " that this was can be heard long before they are seen). A proper,sober and alert look out and boat operator may have changed the outcome of this situation. While I think the powerboat gets 95% blame here I got to think had all basic navigation rules been used, including knowing if the sailboats navagation light were or were not on, it could have been a different outcome. Guess we will never know.Blame on both sides.
pete,
I tried putting myself in the sailboat skippers place and asking myself 'what would I do if..' At 45 mph (if you can believe that) that cigarette is traveling at 66 feet per second. At 5 kts the sailboat is traveling at 7 feet per second. Assuming there was someone on watch and aware of the approaching speed boat given the limited visibility and perception of distance, 'what would they have done?' How would they try to guess which way to turn to avoid the reckless speeder given the vastly slower sailboat?
I tried putting myself in the sailboat skippers place and asking myself 'what would I do if..' At 45 mph (if you can believe that) that cigarette is traveling at 66 feet per second. At 5 kts the sailboat is traveling at 7 feet per second. Assuming there was someone on watch and aware of the approaching speed boat given the limited visibility and perception of distance, 'what would they have done?' How would they try to guess which way to turn to avoid the reckless speeder given the vastly slower sailboat?
Not to mention the fact that there was little wind so the sailboat was restricted in it's ability to maneuver.
Alan, I think you are missing some of the message here.... the sailboat operator still has a responsibility to be sober.... It is a legal and well as moral responsibility. Using your numbers one second more notice (seven feet @ five knots) may have made this a very very close call instead of an accident. Boat lights are supposed to be visible for one mile, and I will give you speed and perception of distance but perception and response times are slower with a over the legal limit of blood alcohol. SECONDS could have made a difference in this situation. Suppose the alcohol had slowed his awareness and response time and maybe he had three second more notice had he not been drinking. I'm not saying it would have but it could have and that is why I contend the sailboat operator has a small percentage of blame here. You were very clear in who you felt had all the blame and responsibility. You did not even address the unknown (unproven) question of if the sailboats lights were or were not on. Maritime law is clear on both parties responsibility to do everything to avoid an accident,clearly being over the legal blood limit is an issue. Respectively try putting yourself in the sailboats operators position taking alcohol into account. Had it been your friend who was killed would you not be asking yourself every day had I not been drinking maybe I could have done something different maybe one more second of notice I could have avoided the boat or had done something different ?? I know I would.
Peter, I get the argument about the lights and intoxication but lets say the lights were on and the person at the helm of the sailboat were sober. Should they change course hoping to avoid a collision or hold course? What would you have done?
What action could you take
Remember that "take action" to avoid collision is more than just changing course. It could be starting the motor, it could be lighting the sails, or sounding the horn. Or even abandoning the vessel (never a prefered choice). The sad fact is we will never know if any of these could have prevented the accident. Having sailed on that lake out of Lakeport for 20+ years, at night everybody onboard was an alert and sober lookout. Why? Because I don't believe in turning my destiny over to somebody else in a over powered speedboat.
Remember that "take action" to avoid collision is more than just changing course. It could be starting the motor, it could be lighting the sails, or sounding the horn. Or even abandoning the vessel (never a prefered choice). The sad fact is we will never know if any of these could have prevented the accident. Having sailed on that lake out of Lakeport for 20+ years, at night everybody onboard was an alert and sober lookout. Why? Because I don't believe in turning my destiny over to somebody else in a over powered speedboat.
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