Hello All, Looking for any Catalina22 owners that struggle to get their boats upwind. I have used a standard jib,and a 135genoa, boat has new main 2022 season. While mast wind indicator seems to show sailing close hauled, the boat seems to be crabbing excessively. Sails are centered and trimmed, telltales flying. Boat is a swing keel. Anyone have similar challenges with this boat.
Issues Sailing Upwind
- Thread starter Harrit
- Start date
You might be surprised at how much more effective your keel is at preventing that crabbing if you get more water flowing over it. Try bearing off a bit to build speed then steer up to pointing mode.
Headway makes a huge difference. Also, how is she trimmed in the water? 22' is a small boat, easily affected by changes in load distribution. If she's stern heavy, you may experience a lot of Lee helm and your over steering to correct would also contribute.
Please give us all the info about the boat's sailing conditions, procedures, and your experience, you can think of.
-Will
Please give us all the info about the boat's sailing conditions, procedures, and your experience, you can think of.
-Will
Waves also make a tremendous difference, even moderate waves will push a light boat backwards with each hit. You need power to punch through them.
If you are "crabbing", fall off until you are moving forward well, you should be able to feel the difference when you get moving fast enough for the keel and rudder to "grab". Your upwind progress will vary a lot depending on different conditions.
If you are "crabbing", fall off until you are moving forward well, you should be able to feel the difference when you get moving fast enough for the keel and rudder to "grab". Your upwind progress will vary a lot depending on different conditions.
The Swing keel actually points much better than the wing so if your struggling I would check a few tings. First as suggested make sure the keel is down but then focus on the rig. Most sailors have the rig way too tight on these boats. Start with the tuning guide from North sails or the Catalina 22 National Associations Tech manual. Once you have the rig tuned properly and centered, focus on the sail shape and draft. If your over sheeted then the boat will slide. Once you have the trim under control make sure to let that headstay have some sag. For racing at the dock in light to moderate winds the forestay should move about 12 inches at nose height with no backstay on. This will power up the headsail.
The Catalina 22 is a head sail driven boat. its all your power. The main is there to mainly balance the boat and when the sails are properly trimmed is sometimes even backwinded from the Genoa. With a 135 though you should have much less of an issue. Finally if you really want to point well you need inside tracks. The OEM rail mounted tracks don't allow you to fully trim the headsail. Test it with a barber hauler rigged to the cabin top cleat and you'll see what I mean. In full pointing mode a 150 should be 3 to 6 inches off the spreader tip. Tighter if pinching and looser if lower winds. The Catalina 22 is not a Jboat of performance racer so it will not preform, as one. However with the proper setup it can do quite well even in a PHRF race.
What year boat do you have and what have you tried so far?
Thanks all, some great feedback here, appreciate it. I wondered how much the tuning aspects would impact upwind sailing, and it is something I have little experience in- so needs to be my focus. I was told the mast should have a 6-7 inch rake measured with the halyard down to the boom. I have not seen anyone mention this, so not sure if it is relevant.
How does the helm feel? If you let go of the tiller will the boat go to windward or leeward? Does the tiller pull one way or the other? Those can be good clues to where the rake is right. Too little rare and it is possible to increase lee helm, which is the type of situation Will mentioned.
About set-up and tuning, including mast rake, LakeShark mentioned the “North sails or the Catalina 22 National Associations Tech manual.”
More rake moves the center of effort aft and will encourage weather helm where the boat would turn up wind if you let go of the tiller. Experimenting with this is not that easy so unless you love the work I would focus on other elements if your rake matches the tuning guide.
If you have an adjustable backstay you can easily experiment with forestay sag by easing the backstay to add sag. This is quite effective when the winds are light but you might wish to tighten the forestay when the breeze is up to keep from getting overpowered.
I've always used a six inch rake. It works.
Have you made any calculations to determine your actual tacking angles, just to establish a baseline? If your chartplotter gives you VMG (Velocity Made Good), that data can tell you a lot. GPS tracks are also helpful. It's always possible you are pointing better than you think.
This is about the best I can achieve:
Have you made any calculations to determine your actual tacking angles, just to establish a baseline? If your chartplotter gives you VMG (Velocity Made Good), that data can tell you a lot. GPS tracks are also helpful. It's always possible you are pointing better than you think.
This is about the best I can achieve:
When / where do all you cruisers measure mast rake?
- On the trailer (have to find some level ground)
- If floating, crew and gear makes a big difference
- Including crew? (And where? In normal cockpit sailing positions? That will bring the stern down a fair bit)
- Or boot all the crew off and watch the halyard + plumb bob setup from the dock?
- Floating with all gear aboard? (stern down even more - at least with all the #$*#&$ we tend to bring)
I usually have done it from the trailer. I think afloat with minimal disturbance from commutative ballast is best, but usually that's for boats over 25'. Once you've done it once, the halyard can be marked for length to stern or stem so you can repeat it if you have to retune again another time. Then, it doesn't matter if you're able to keep her level.
-Will
-Will
On the water, with average gear and provisions.
I can't prove it, of course, but beyond that level of "precision", I question whether gear and crew (within reason) make that much difference when it comes to measuring rake. Cruiser mentality, perhaps, but I have always objectively felt like we are fairly fast and point fairly well, based on other boats going the same direction.
I can't prove it, of course, but beyond that level of "precision", I question whether gear and crew (within reason) make that much difference when it comes to measuring rake. Cruiser mentality, perhaps, but I have always objectively felt like we are fairly fast and point fairly well, based on other boats going the same direction.
When / where do all you cruisers measure mast rake?
Inquiring minds want to know. And I'm not bright enough to infer how varying rake might interact with varying keel angle as we shift weight forward or aft.
- On the trailer (have to find some level ground)
- If floating, crew and gear makes a big difference
- Including crew? (And where? In normal cockpit sailing positions? That will bring the stern down a fair bit)
- Or boot all the crew off and watch the halyard + plumb bob setup from the dock?
- Floating with all gear aboard? (stern down even more - at least with all the #$*#&$ we tend to bring)
The official answer is on its "on its lines" according to the North Sails Guide
"Start with boat sitting on its lines in the water. Hang a weight from the end of the main halyard and cleat off halyard with weight and shackle 12” below the boom. Measure distance from the aft face of the mast to where the halyard crosses the boom. This measurement should be 8” for fixed keels, 6-7” for swing keels. Adjust the headstay turnbuckle to achieve desired measurement. ".
I tune mine in the water with the boat about evenly balanced. About the only thing I can do on the trailer is make sure the mast is straight side to side with the halyard. As for @Gene Neill comments he is correct in that for the average cruiser it does not matter much. Where you store things and how many people are on board affects things a lot. When we camp 5 on board tuning is "as best as I can get it by feel" since the boat sits about 4 inches lower with all the supplies and things.
When racing though I strip the entire interior and tune very precisely for the days conditions. While I have a heavy new design wing keel it still points well and is an absolute rocket down wind. Again with a crew of 5 on board (4 at the bow) after the windward mark we set the pole and can easily gain 3-4 boat lengths on any swing keel boat going down wind. Sorta fun that is until the Leeward mark when they all pull away. It does make for some close finishes though at nationals.
North Sails Guide: https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/catalina-22-tuning-guide
It’s easy to over trim the main sheet while beating up wind. Try putting on a lot of vang (if it has one) to flatten the main and letting off of the main sheet a bit.
You tacks look much better than mine. I checked my recorded tracks and I am 15 to 20 degrees off what you show. I have lots to learn - still pretty new at sailing.
thanks for posting,
Valerie