Is This Just Outdated Advice?
- Thread starter GorillaToast
- Start date
- Status
Pay no attention to the Confederate battle flag at the end of the state house, the official flag flies on the dome. It is confusing.
The boat came with the GEN 1 narrow slot and as the main is brand new i have learned to live with it
as if you price out a new compealt unit with battens its a good 10K 
Firstly, understand that the word "performance" does not alway mean the same thing to everyone. Most people equate "performance" to speed. I take it to mean, how well does it work for me in all aspects.
Sources
1) Emiliano Marino - The Sailmaker's Apprentice p.364
"Does the roach requiring the battens and headboard have to be there?
If you are a competitive sailor or want maximum sailing performance,
yes; otherwise, no.
For the sailor whose primary concerns are safety, durability, and economy in a well-found sail, the leech can be cut straight or even with a certain amount of hollow or concave curve, thus eliminating the need for battens and headboard."
2) Lin and Larry Pardey - The Self-Sufficient Sailor (sorry I can't cite the page #. My ipad doesn't show them.)
"Battens are generally a nuisance on a cruising boat. Their pockets chafe badly on the inboard ends, splitting the pocket stitching and tearing the sail if they happen to break at night. Sailing in light winds with a leftover choppy sea, a mainsail can make the most agonizing slatting and banging noises, even though it is prevented and vanged well. By eliminating the weight of the battens on the leech of the sail, the strain and wear of slatting can be greatly reduced. About half of your mainsail repairs will be eliminated when you get rid of battens; ask any sailmaker."
But on the other side of the coin...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/full-batten-main-or-partial-59294.html
posts #11 and #13 opine that one of my sources is dead wrong; at least in the modern era.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/extra-large-roach-mainsail-49796.html
post #8 supports my view.
and a very lively discussion here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/fully-battened-vs-battenless-49206.html
post # 26 mentions "...33% cheaper..."
Regarding JVB's post,
you are right. I am dumb and inexperienced, and therefore I come to the internet and forums like this to try and learn something. If I had great experience, I wouldn't have even had a question to ask. Had I started a new thread that asked "Which is better battened or battenless?" I would have gotten the same kind of differing opinions as in the "Fully-battened-vs-Battenless" thread I cited.
My doctor friend who does not own a computer, will not use a computer, and has never been on the internet, believes that anything presented on the internet is not valid, having not gone thru a double-blind study and been reported as fact in a valid publication. He's adament to the point of anger about this. He maintains that any knowledge that I say can be gained from the internet, is available to those who are willing to do the leg-work by reading books, making telephone calls and writing letters.
Fortunately, I don't agree. But then maybe...
The sources are rather dated and not entirely applicable to today's sails, construction techniques or options. The best advice of all of it was by Island Planet Sails, an actual sail maker, which you seemingly chose not to listen to. That's why I suggested people often search the net for views that support what they want them to...
We're still a long way from a 50/50 split....
I personally don't know any sailors, and I know lots and lots of them, not just racers but cruisers too, who would swap a batten/roach main for a battenless / roachless one.
I have a customers boat which I decommissioned in the fall. The full batten main was built in 1986 and is still in "workable" condition..... The stitching has been redone about 3X and the fabric is real soft and she's not the best performing sail at this point but the battens are the least of the worries on what was even then, in 1986, a "cheap" sail, and is today still going... My guess is that this sail would still out perform a battenless & roachless brand new sail..
I have a few "retired" sails in the barn and none of them were retired for anything to do with the battens. The battens and pockets all outlasted the sail...
In over 40 years of sailing family boats and my own I have never once had a sail that suffered short life due to battens. I lost one batten, back in the late 90's, but that was my fault and it cost me all of $13.00 and about 10 minutes to properly fit it. I've misplaced battens during the winter and mixed up battens for old sails with newer ones but that has been the biggest draw back to what have other wise been huge performance boosts over the alternative of no battens and no added roach.
Since fiberglass battens hit the scene I have never broken one. I've had many sails re-stiched and a few older style batten pockets too but all of these re-stitches were caused by UV not by the battens The sails needed it even where the battens were not.
I've owned standard batten sails, full batten and top two full sails. I have also owned a boat with a battenless & roachless furling main so I can actually speak from actual experience with all the batten or battenless options.
That battenless sail was by a long shot the worst performing sail I have owned, though I did have an antique cotton duck sail back when I was kid that was pretty bad too... The furling was convenient, loved it for that. The sail was really poor performing though... Loved the "ease of use" with the furling main but HATED the performance hit..
Your talking $465.00 for a standard C-22 sail or $520.00 for a top two full battens C-22 sail from National Sail. If I owned a C-22 I'd be opting for the top two full option, but that's just me.
Can you please list your primary reasons for wanting to go battenless/roachless? Perhaps we can help you make a decision that will help you sail your boat better and enjoy it more....
I would urge you to consider the performance (as in sailing performance not "longevity") hit you'll take....
P.S. I guess your buddy is not familiar with PubMed, clinicaltrials.gov etc.?? Same stuff he gets in his peer reviewed journals but you don't need to dig through piles of old journals to find the clinical trial data you want...
The dark gray area is what you give up by having no roach, no battens. Actually more correctly stated, you give up more than the gray area because they cut the roach slightly "negative" so they are less prone to leech flap & flutter.
We're still a long way from a 50/50 split....
I personally don't know any sailors, and I know lots and lots of them, not just racers but cruisers too, who would swap a batten/roach main for a battenless / roachless one.
I have a customers boat which I decommissioned in the fall. The full batten main was built in 1986 and is still in "workable" condition..... The stitching has been redone about 3X and the fabric is real soft and she's not the best performing sail at this point but the battens are the least of the worries on what was even then, in 1986, a "cheap" sail, and is today still going... My guess is that this sail would still out perform a battenless & roachless brand new sail..
I have a few "retired" sails in the barn and none of them were retired for anything to do with the battens. The battens and pockets all outlasted the sail...
In over 40 years of sailing family boats and my own I have never once had a sail that suffered short life due to battens. I lost one batten, back in the late 90's, but that was my fault and it cost me all of $13.00 and about 10 minutes to properly fit it. I've misplaced battens during the winter and mixed up battens for old sails with newer ones but that has been the biggest draw back to what have other wise been huge performance boosts over the alternative of no battens and no added roach.
Since fiberglass battens hit the scene I have never broken one. I've had many sails re-stiched and a few older style batten pockets too but all of these re-stitches were caused by UV not by the battens The sails needed it even where the battens were not.
I've owned standard batten sails, full batten and top two full sails. I have also owned a boat with a battenless & roachless furling main so I can actually speak from actual experience with all the batten or battenless options.
That battenless sail was by a long shot the worst performing sail I have owned, though I did have an antique cotton duck sail back when I was kid that was pretty bad too...
The furling was convenient, loved it for that. The sail was really poor performing though... Loved the "ease of use" with the furling main but HATED the performance hit..Your talking $465.00 for a standard C-22 sail or $520.00 for a top two full battens C-22 sail from National Sail. If I owned a C-22 I'd be opting for the top two full option, but that's just me.
Can you please list your primary reasons for wanting to go battenless/roachless? Perhaps we can help you make a decision that will help you sail your boat better and enjoy it more....
I would urge you to consider the performance (as in sailing performance not "longevity") hit you'll take....
P.S. I guess your buddy is not familiar with PubMed, clinicaltrials.gov etc.?? Same stuff he gets in his peer reviewed journals but you don't need to dig through piles of old journals to find the clinical trial data you want...
The dark gray area is what you give up by having no roach, no battens. Actually more correctly stated, you give up more than the gray area because they cut the roach slightly "negative" so they are less prone to leech flap & flutter.
HEINZIR
.
- Jan 22, 2008
- 198
Seems to me the only real argument in favor of a battenless, roachless mainsail is the possible reduction of potential chafe problems. Just how much chafe or sail maintenance problems are you expecting on your Catalina 22? One of the sources quoted was going off on a three year cruise. The Pardeys are well known circumnavigators. The wear and chafe that these cruisers experience on their ocean voyages will NEVER be experienced on a Catalina 22 on a lake in the midwest. Sometimes those of us with smaller boats on inland lakes like to pretend we will be facing the same challenges as those with unlimited horizons. We do, to a limited extent. But our sails will not be slatting around in the doldrums for days or weeks on end. Nor will our boats be subject to the endless swells of the ocean 24/7. We may get some strong winds from time to time but nowhere near the waves the same winds would produce on the ocean or on the Great Lakes. Let's keep things in context.
My 1974 Venture 23 is about the same size as your Catalina 22. I have owned and sailed her since 1976 on the Great Lakes as well as on my local puddle. I can honestly tell you that chafe from the battens has NEVER been a problem.
Gorilla Toast: You can put whatever kind of sail you like on your boat, for whatever reason..... that's within your power. What you can't control is the price someone will charge you to make a special sail....that's the reality, brother. All you can do is search until you find a like minded sailmaker who agrees with your logic.. if, in fact, you can't find a satifactory sailmaker... then consider making your own sail. Go to www.sailrite.com for all the information you will ever need about such a project.
The bottom line is that no one here will agree with your complaint.... if you want to save money, don't order a custom made sail... or build your own.
The bottom line is that no one here will agree with your complaint.... if you want to save money, don't order a custom made sail... or build your own.
MS - out of curiosity, why have the top two battens be full for a C-22? I have an H-22 and will be replacing my sail this year, as its the original 1984 sail. And would you do it this way just for a certain size, say on your 36' would you do it differently? Is there a time when you have all full battens? My Hobie cat had all full battens.
Uncle! Uncle!
Ok, I give up. I'll be ordering a standard C22 mainsail; but I'm sticking to my guns with loose-footed!
Maine Sail: In the future I will remember to be more precise when ever I use idiomatic expressions such as "seem to split about 50/50...".
For my part, can of worms closed.
Thanks.
Ok, I give up. I'll be ordering a standard C22 mainsail; but I'm sticking to my guns with loose-footed!
Maine Sail: In the future I will remember to be more precise when ever I use idiomatic expressions such as "seem to split about 50/50...".
For my part, can of worms closed.
Thanks.
I like the loose footed plan. My main is in great shape and I have an old, original (1967 heavy built) rolling boom. My tack and clue are well made so should I be able to just remove the foot from the slot?
'Scuse me while I reopen this can of worms, Gorilla. I beg to differ with you for giving in. And this has nothing to do with sail performance or even price. You have done your research and seem to know what you want. Let me tell you a mistake I made in my photography business before you order your sail.
For several months I wanted a particular camera body that cost $5,000. Yes, it really was a $5,000 camera. No lens just the body. I told the salesman I would pick it up and pay for it when I saw him at a convention. He was happy and I was happy. While talking to him, he was adamant that I only needed the model that was $2,700. He kept telling me the two cameras were the same because they both used the same sensor. After much thought and angst, I bought the $2,700 camera and a $1,200 lens. Still saved money after buying the lens. Turns out there is a huge difference in the way the bodies operate. I wish I had paid the extra money, not bought the lens (that I don't use now anyway) and would still be happy with my decision.
My point is, it doesn't matter what we or anyone else thinks about your decision. If you buy the standard sail with roach and battens and are unhappy with it in the future, you'll kick yourself for not doing what your gut told you all along. You'll also hold it against the people on this forum for talking you into it. (By the way, I had to look up to see what a roach on a sail is. Now I know.) After reading your original question, you weren't asking advice on whether you should get a standard cut sail or one with a roach and battens. But we, as well-meaning forum members, decided it was in your best interest to talk you into buying something different. You have read everything and now have to make up your own mind.
Sorry for the re-opened can or worms. But I can't help but hope you will consider what I just wrote.
For several months I wanted a particular camera body that cost $5,000. Yes, it really was a $5,000 camera. No lens just the body. I told the salesman I would pick it up and pay for it when I saw him at a convention. He was happy and I was happy. While talking to him, he was adamant that I only needed the model that was $2,700. He kept telling me the two cameras were the same because they both used the same sensor. After much thought and angst, I bought the $2,700 camera and a $1,200 lens. Still saved money after buying the lens. Turns out there is a huge difference in the way the bodies operate. I wish I had paid the extra money, not bought the lens (that I don't use now anyway) and would still be happy with my decision.
My point is, it doesn't matter what we or anyone else thinks about your decision. If you buy the standard sail with roach and battens and are unhappy with it in the future, you'll kick yourself for not doing what your gut told you all along. You'll also hold it against the people on this forum for talking you into it. (By the way, I had to look up to see what a roach on a sail is. Now I know.) After reading your original question, you weren't asking advice on whether you should get a standard cut sail or one with a roach and battens. But we, as well-meaning forum members, decided it was in your best interest to talk you into buying something different. You have read everything and now have to make up your own mind.
Sorry for the re-opened can or worms. But I can't help but hope you will consider what I just wrote.
Loose footed is a GREAT feature...
Just giving you a hard time hence the winkies and smilies...
Oh and check National Sail Supply Dirk has treated me very well over the years... They have menu pricing for standard Catalina 22 sails...
Oh crap! I just realized if you get a roachless battenless sail and hate it, you'll blame me! Forget what I said. Buy whatever the heck you want!
p.s. I'm so concerned that I gave you bad advice that I'm changing my avatar to one with a beard so you won't recognize me.
p.s. I'm so concerned that I gave you bad advice that I'm changing my avatar to one with a beard so you won't recognize me.
I need to learn how to put into perspective all the things I read on these forums. It's like the issue of jacklines; many posts I read are in favor of using them, so I went out and bought webbing to make jacklines, but when I looked around at the boats in my marina, not one of them has jacklines. I guess my fellow clubmembers are just foolhardy risk-takers, or maybe there is just no need for staying on the boat when you can easily swim to any shore. Same thing with the stack pack I made last winter. I'm the only one with one, and I stopped using it because I got tired of the battens fouling in it.
I'm just a novice with a little sailboat, sailing on a little pond, trying to be a real sailor. It's cost me thousands of dollars I didn't need to spend and made me appear foolish.
Kermit - thank you for the ego boost; especially for pointing out that I never asked for advice on what type of sail to buy.
Maine Sail - National Sail Supply is where I had gotten the quote I was ranting about. I still plan to order from them. Now, I humbly as for the benifit of your experience regarding which configuration to order. First, let me say I dont' race, and have no intentions of doing so. I mostly sail before noon and after 11pm, and have had to deal with light air conditions constantly. On days off, when I can sail in the late afternoon, I have to deal with the Miami Vice wannabees in their giant power boats, and jet skiers circiling my boat ala "Waterworld". While I enjoy the erzatz "big-water" waves they produce, the flogging and slatting make it almost impossible for me to sail when the air is very light. This year, I hope to have the courage to sail in windier conditions than I did last year, in order to puch the envelope and gain more experience. Although, last year I did learn alot about sail trim in light airs, I'll find other things to do when there is no wind like learning to fish, instead of pretending I'm stuck in the doldrums for days on end..
I single-hand, and have all lines led aft. My sails appear to be the original ones, and I've been told by some club members they are pretty blown out. I use a boomkicker instead of a topping lift, I have an adjustable backstay, and the standard C22 traveler. Additional sail trim controls are, 4:1 outhaul, cunningham, vang, single-line reefing. No downhaul on the main, but one for the jib.
At this point, I'm thinking I should order a standard C22 mainsail with loose foot, 1 reef, and cunningham.
Thanks again for the reality check.
I'm just a novice with a little sailboat, sailing on a little pond, trying to be a real sailor. It's cost me thousands of dollars I didn't need to spend and made me appear foolish.
Kermit - thank you for the ego boost; especially for pointing out that I never asked for advice on what type of sail to buy.
Maine Sail - National Sail Supply is where I had gotten the quote I was ranting about. I still plan to order from them. Now, I humbly as for the benifit of your experience regarding which configuration to order. First, let me say I dont' race, and have no intentions of doing so. I mostly sail before noon and after 11pm, and have had to deal with light air conditions constantly. On days off, when I can sail in the late afternoon, I have to deal with the Miami Vice wannabees in their giant power boats, and jet skiers circiling my boat ala "Waterworld". While I enjoy the erzatz "big-water" waves they produce, the flogging and slatting make it almost impossible for me to sail when the air is very light. This year, I hope to have the courage to sail in windier conditions than I did last year, in order to puch the envelope and gain more experience. Although, last year I did learn alot about sail trim in light airs, I'll find other things to do when there is no wind like learning to fish, instead of pretending I'm stuck in the doldrums for days on end..
I single-hand, and have all lines led aft. My sails appear to be the original ones, and I've been told by some club members they are pretty blown out. I use a boomkicker instead of a topping lift, I have an adjustable backstay, and the standard C22 traveler. Additional sail trim controls are, 4:1 outhaul, cunningham, vang, single-line reefing. No downhaul on the main, but one for the jib.
At this point, I'm thinking I should order a standard C22 mainsail with loose foot, 1 reef, and cunningham.
Thanks again for the reality check.
Perspective
is interesting. I've followed this with great interest, 'cuz we used to have a C22, but never had to deal with the issue of new sails.
Essentially, your original question was why it was costing so much more $$ for so "less" material in a sail. The simple answer seemed to be "it was not stock" so therefore cost more. It then switched to the type of sail.
Sometimes you get more than you paid for on these forums.
It's good to hear that you learned how to sail in light airs - the reality is that light air sailing is lots harder to learn, so consider yourself ahead of the curve.
Good luck with whatever you buy, and have a great season.
is interesting. I've followed this with great interest, 'cuz we used to have a C22, but never had to deal with the issue of new sails.
Essentially, your original question was why it was costing so much more $$ for so "less" material in a sail. The simple answer seemed to be "it was not stock" so therefore cost more. It then switched to the type of sail.
Sometimes you get more than you paid for on these forums.
It's good to hear that you learned how to sail in light airs - the reality is that light air sailing is lots harder to learn, so consider yourself ahead of the curve.
Good luck with whatever you buy, and have a great season.
The Cat 22 is slightly overcanvassed for its size ... with a sailarea to displacement of ratio of 19. Normal boats will have the SA/D ratio somewhere between 15-17.
What happens with a roachless main is a very narrow top of the sail which produces a large horizontal 'rotor' that does nothing but induces drag and this drag is not constant with changing wind velocity making the boat very 'cranky' under some wind conditions but not others - variable ... hence the modern trend towards very large 'flat-top' highly roached and heavily battened sails - just the opposite of your original proposal.
Your boat would have to have its mast severely raked aft to balance a significantly reduced area roachless sail ... and that would require that the angle between the foot and the luff also be reduced for further lessening of the sail area or you would risk carrying the aft end of the boom very low into the cockpit when compensating for a 'roachless' mainsail to gain 'helm balance'. For this boat I would recommend two full battens near the top and two 'normal size' battens further down --- best combo for sailing ability, sail stability and longevity
The 'standard' C22 design sail plan has been successfully used since the early 1970s .. and with good reason: it 'works well' for this boat, especially in light and flukey winds.
Chafe and 'splitting' (fatigue from constantly 'folding') of the sail material at the forward end of the batten pocket can be a problem ... on cheap sails made without a few extra layers reinforcement in that area. You have to ASK for this extra reinforcement when buying 'bargain basement' sails. And, you should be ASKING for tapered battens that allow a smooth bending shape transition at this vulnerable area of the forward portion of the batten pocket - untapered battens will put undue strain and chafe onto the batten pocket at the 'forward edge' of the pocket.
For extra longevity of such a sail I would recommend that you ask to be quoted an optional set of 'auxilliary battens' .... short thin small 8-12" long battens placed between the head of the sail and first top batten, between the first and second batten - to help keep the roach very stable and less prone to 'flutter', especially *when* the sail begins to age/stretch along its leech. Roachless sails usually prematurely begin to 'flutter' (blown out) beyond what can be controlled with a 'leech line' (a leech control line would be an additional 'requirement') ... hence shorter useful service life. Applying aux. battens as above will promote a roached sail to have even more additional service life.
Also too youre not going to be exposed to large open ocean swells that endlessly roll through the 'doldrums' where the boat may sit and 'slat' for days on end in windlesss conditions.
hope this helps.
What happens with a roachless main is a very narrow top of the sail which produces a large horizontal 'rotor' that does nothing but induces drag and this drag is not constant with changing wind velocity making the boat very 'cranky' under some wind conditions but not others - variable ... hence the modern trend towards very large 'flat-top' highly roached and heavily battened sails - just the opposite of your original proposal.
Your boat would have to have its mast severely raked aft to balance a significantly reduced area roachless sail ... and that would require that the angle between the foot and the luff also be reduced for further lessening of the sail area or you would risk carrying the aft end of the boom very low into the cockpit when compensating for a 'roachless' mainsail to gain 'helm balance'. For this boat I would recommend two full battens near the top and two 'normal size' battens further down --- best combo for sailing ability, sail stability and longevity
The 'standard' C22 design sail plan has been successfully used since the early 1970s .. and with good reason: it 'works well' for this boat, especially in light and flukey winds.
Chafe and 'splitting' (fatigue from constantly 'folding') of the sail material at the forward end of the batten pocket can be a problem ... on cheap sails made without a few extra layers reinforcement in that area. You have to ASK for this extra reinforcement when buying 'bargain basement' sails. And, you should be ASKING for tapered battens that allow a smooth bending shape transition at this vulnerable area of the forward portion of the batten pocket - untapered battens will put undue strain and chafe onto the batten pocket at the 'forward edge' of the pocket.
For extra longevity of such a sail I would recommend that you ask to be quoted an optional set of 'auxilliary battens' .... short thin small 8-12" long battens placed between the head of the sail and first top batten, between the first and second batten - to help keep the roach very stable and less prone to 'flutter', especially *when* the sail begins to age/stretch along its leech. Roachless sails usually prematurely begin to 'flutter' (blown out) beyond what can be controlled with a 'leech line' (a leech control line would be an additional 'requirement') ... hence shorter useful service life. Applying aux. battens as above will promote a roached sail to have even more additional service life.
Also too youre not going to be exposed to large open ocean swells that endlessly roll through the 'doldrums' where the boat may sit and 'slat' for days on end in windlesss conditions.
hope this helps.
Last edited:
No I didn't, and here is why:
"Waters Sails is not only a Great Sail Loft, but a complete sailing system, designed for sailing fast."
As stated earlier, I don't race, and have no need to go fast in my current situation. Thanks for the link anyway.
Sailing fast or having the *potential* to sail fast is the same as sailing more 'safely'.
Keep this in mind when a 'cold front' (especially 'clear' cold front) or a severe thunderstorm is unpredicted and is quickly approaching and just happens to unexpectedly 'pops up'.
Keep this in mind when a 'cold front' (especially 'clear' cold front) or a severe thunderstorm is unpredicted and is quickly approaching and just happens to unexpectedly 'pops up'.
- Status