Is this how the water got in my rudder?

[njlarry]

Is this how the water got into my rudder?

We knew there had been water in the rudder from the survey and one foot square area of delamination. I drilled a hole in the base but very little water seeped out. As there were no breaks in the skin, I figured it got in where the skin wraps around the outside of the shaft.
However, when I went to try out the emergency tiller, the top of the rudder tube was full of water from a leaking deck plate. I pumped out the water into a bottle as it was very oily. As one picture shows the plywood core is soaked. The other pic shows the old and new deck plates with old failed sealant removed. I used butyl tape for the replacement which also allowed me to keep the deck plate straight so it threads close properly and allow for the deck camber.
As it is a very small area, I hope that venting it over the winter will dry out the ply. Being a small area I do not plan to start major surgery. (long list of other projects on front of it).

 

[jibes138]

My rudder delaminated and I ended up repairing it then after several years I bought a new rudder. The shaft is filled with foam so I'm not sure water goes down the shaft but it might. I think because the shaft is not sealed on the outside it just sits in a tube and bushings moisture can get in along the outside of the shaft. There is a grease fitting on the tube and you should grease it once in a while, I think the grease may also help stop moisture.

 

[njlarry]

Good point about the grease. My zerk fitting is rusted shut so hope a new replacement will fit easily.
Curious about your rudder delamination. How did you repair it and then why replace it? Did you find crevice corrosion in the shaft/webs?
Not sure yet what to do about mine. The delamination is only about a foot in diameter.

 

[jibes138]

I just drilled a bunch of holes all over the delaminate area and let it drain. Then I injected it with acetone and let it dry then injected west epoxy and clamped it while it cured. I should have vacuum bagged it so it would take the original shape, the clamping worked OK for bonding but that area of the rudder was always a little uneven and since I didn't cut the skin out and check the metal structure I always wondered about it. The flow was a little disturbed and I could feel it in the helm as a small oscillation. A new rudder from Rudy was about 2300 when I replaced it. I used the repaired one for several years including a week long offshore trip down the east coast. I barrier coated the new rudder and paint it white to keep the heat down. Most folks on the hard seem to put a bag over them to insulate from the sun also. My area was about the size of a football.
A guy next to me just had his repaired and they used a moisture meter to see where it was wet, just cut out the skin in that area and re-laminated, all while still on the boat, it was a small area maybe the size of a softball that delaminated.
Another point of entry on our rudders is where the shaft enters the laminate, if there is a leak there it could saturate the foam in the core. Not an area you can see or inspect unless you drop the rudder.
I agree that the original design of that upper bushing and deck plate leaves a lot to be desired. Having the core exposed in the helmsman seat is bad and the curvature of the seat is not conducive to properly sealing the access port. I used some thick foam material they use to seal caps on pickup trucks from leaking and it seems to work well, but a thick layer of butyl should be fine unless it keeps oozing out. The bond line is pretty thick there. Then there is the possibility of the seal in the deck plate leaking also. From a design standpoint there are many failure modes with this set up. Probably it is best to dig out the core and fill the gap with thickened epoxy so the seat doesn't flex.
I do like the long moment arm provided for the rudder with this design though. Since the rudder is a cantilever beam having the long shaft provides a good support to keep the rudder from bending. A skeg is ideal as you support the rudder on the bottom but that's just wishful thinking for us.

 

[jibes138]

If you want to get really creative make a molded adapter to fit the curvature of the seat that can go under the deck plate so the deck plate sits on a flat surface. You should be able to sell millions of them. Just make a casting of the seat by building a circular dam the same diameter as the access plate and pour some epoxy or similar then make a female mold from the male plug you created. Now you can lay up hundreds of adapters for sale to all us 34/35 owners :>) and then retire in the virgin islands.

 

[njlarry]

Great idea!! Do you really think I can get 2 grand apiece for them? Wow!Maybe WM will carry them too!
Gotta go-need to run to the shop and start the molding:dance:
Thanks for the idea, will buy you a tall cool one when I get to the islands!

But getting back to realville, thanks for your post. I am also considering cutting out the delaminated area while still on the boat and vacuum bagging the repair if the stainless internal is ok. Buying a new rudder is also a possibility but I feel in a few years I be back to a water soaked rudder again.
Although very little seeped out over several weeks in the one hole I made at the bottom. (will post a picture when I find it)
Also considering painting it white while on the hard but don't know it that would really help. Seems that the cold temps and expanding ice would do more damage than heat?

 

[rajhnsn]

I did pretty much the same thing as Jibes. When I had my bottom peeled, they peeled the rudder as well. There were rust lines under the gel coat so I was imagining that the flag was rusting away at the post. My concern was that the post would eventually separate at the most inopportune time so I replaced the rudder. Later I did an autopsy on the old rudder and found that it was securely attached and would have lasted for many more years. A previous owner had filled much of the area with epoxy that was very hard and for some reason used an iron screw to hold something in place. Probably the source of the rust. I was told by the manufacture in Florida (Foss Foam I think) that the pendent is now made of stainless as well so you do not have dissimilar metals. The seal at the post is pretty tight and I do not see any signs of leaks after four seasons.

BTW njlarry, I'm in Rock Hall as well if you want to ever take a look. Of course I'm in the water now but will likely be hauling at Sailing Emporium in November.

 

[njlarry]

I'm at Haven Harbour and would love to take a look.
Often at Red Dragon during the week, let me know if
you ever need a crew at Riverton Weds races.
ps Love the name of your 35.
(sorry all, haven't found how to private message on this forum yet)

 

[DannyS]

I had some delamination and here's how I went about fixing it.
http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=744783&highlight=rudder delamination

 

[njlarry]

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the pics and info. Looks like a very well done job.
Two questions; could you have done the same repair while the rudder was still on the boat and did you consider the pro and con of just drilling a series of holes and injecting thickened epoxy?
oops-third question, how did you get the rudder off the boat?

 

[jibes138]

NJLarry,
You need to pull out the plastic liners in your aft lockers to get at the rudder. Then you need to loosen up the steering cables and remove the quadrant. A bolt that goes through the shaft and quadrant. All this while hanging upside down like a circus contortionist. :>)

 

[DannyS]

If the boat is on the hard, you'll also have to dig a hole in the ground for the rudder to drop into in order to get it out. I did consider drilling holes and injecting with epoxy but I called Foss Foam who made the rudder and they persuaded me not to go that route. My original question to them was could I drill a bunch of holes, let it dry for a few months through the winter, then inject and vacuum bag it to put even pressure on the face. Their response was that it will never dry out as completely as it would if it were opened up and the vacuum bag pressure only works with a pliable surface, not a rigid skin. The job could certainly be done while still on the boat but much easier while laying flat. Mine had delamination on both sides so if it were on the boat, I could have done both sides at the same time but I had all winter to do the project so of course, I waited until three weeks prior to launch in the spring.