Is Stiffness Really a Good Thing

[tom]

Motor Home Designs

Some boats seem to have been designed by the same guys that design motor homes. Boxey the most volume for length and then glue on a mast and keel. Put in a big motor and roll up sails kinda like the roll up awnings on the motor homes. Bob Perry designs sure look like boats. Some of the newer sailboats may perform well but really do look like a big plastic bottle. I think that it was Joshua Slocum who said that the most seaworthy boat was a well stoppered bottle,can survive any conditions. The best designs seem to take a good seaworthy boat and make it comfortable as opposed to taking a comfortable travel trailer and makiing it float. What I wonder is if a big production company like hunter or catalina could take a production boat and beef it up to blue water standards without making the price go out of sight. Heavier laminants,fully attached bulkheads,through bolted hull to deck joints and heavier rigging. It would seem that a few thousand dollars in hardware and fiberglass could make many production coastal cruisers much more rugged. Like the author John Vigor in his book was talking about modifying a Catalina 27 so that it could be a blue water boat. I think that at least one circumnavigated. I have no doubt that a company like catalina can make an affordable blue water boat.

 

[RichH]

Totally right, Tom

Markets have to follow the demand or not be markets any longer. Since the current demand is more for luxury, comfort, ability to 'dockside entertain', etc. rather than 'sailing' ... thats what will drive the shape of boats for some time .... Most types for "The Eloi" and a few boats for us "Morlocks'. Just look at the decline in fleet racing over the past 20 years, on the Chesapeake I'd say that its declined by 70% ... and leaves the new designs to fill the market of "Winnebagos with triangular pieces of cloth on top" that are only used in 'fair weather' or daysailing/dockside entertaining. The boatbuulding money is in the 'middle aged', first time / wannabes, .... small rigs, volumous interior boats, BIG engines, lot of 'cup holders', push button evertything. When you go to a boat show nowadays, no one is looking at the underbody, the cockpit layout (other than where the cup holders and fold down tables are) ... the hardware layout, rigging and sailplan; Nope, now its all: cushion fabric quality, double island berths, galley arrangement, massive electronics panels, microwaves, flatscreen TVs .... . "Overpriced Winnebagos with triangular pieces of cloth on top" to be parked in front of someones dockominium.

 

[newly anonymous]

better well-mannered than stiff.

A few years back I crewed a race on an ancient full-keel Cheoy Lee ketch with wooden spars. Very stiff. There was no boom vang on the main because the boom's weight kept it from skying. I was amazed at how well the boat handled puffs: the boom merely raised a few inches, thereby depowering the main automatically until the pressure returned to normal. When close reaching a puff would come and go without requiring any adjustment of the helm. That boat was stiff by any definition.Unfortunately, that old ketch tacked through 100 degrees, hobbyhorsing all the way, which made beating to weather a chore. It sometimes took several minutes to come up to speed after a tack. My modern production boat, a Hunter, tacks through 60 degrees and then accelerates nicely. Classic stiff boats won't do that. Last weekend a buddy of mine who owns an older Camper Nicholson took the helm for a few hours, and couldn't believe how high the Hunter 46 points. Stiff boats don't always have good manners. I've done a long offshore delivery on a Tayana 48, and was horrified at how much green water it took aboard. Same with an Oyster 48.5 that I sailed from LA to SF one December when we watched the bow go under water hundreds of times. I've only got 1,000 nm on my new Hunter, purchased last July, but I can guarantee you I've never once seen the bow roller dive under a wave. My new boat isn't stiff; I think about reefing around 18 knots true, depending on sea conditions and how "stiff" the passengers are. But shortening sail on this boat is incredibly easy, and in the SF wind I'm often hitting 9 knots STW partially furled. Nice thing is that when the wind gets light in the winter I've still got ample power, and at that point the stiff boats are left far behind.A well-mannered boat keeps the crew dry, points high without bashing, and is easily controlled by the helm. It doesn't wallow downwind the way those narrow hulls of yore did, nor will it broach like an IOR-era hull. It has plenty of traveler so that you can ease your way through the puffs without rounding up, and the traveler is easily reached from the helm. Most important for long passages, the wheel never wrestles the person steering.There's nothing better than a boat that doesn't forget its manners in the process of going fast.

 

[tom]

Wet Versus Dry

I would guess that other than weight Wet versus dry is a matter of freeboard. But high freeboard catches the wind. Also heavy plowing through waves is smoother than bouncing across the tops of waves. If you are daysailing or a short passage of 24 hours or so bouncing around isn't so bad. But if you are crossing an ocean and will be at sea for weeks the bouncing might wear you out. I know that a day of bay or lake sailing isn't nearly as tiring as a day out on the gulf. My recent experience is only about 24 hours at sea at a time. I was tired in my Pearson and it is a relatively narrow heavy boat. After sailing on a new Beneteau 30 something(I think that it was 34' but it was a 2005 boat) I know that a day at sea would be even more tiring. Moving around my Pearson's cockpit is a pain at anchor or at the dock but feels secure in 5-6' waves. The Benny's WIDE cockpit was a little scarey at 25-30 degrees. One crew member fell across the cockpit and fortunately he wasn't hurt. Going on deck during a rough night at sea on the benny would scare me... BUT the Benny was winning a lot of races when the wind was about 15 knots in a lake. The day I sailed was in the 20-30 knot range and the skipper didn't put in a reef as he was trying to win the race. Unfortunately the gusts heeled the boat causing it to round up losing any advantage of not putting in a reef. But if there had been ocean waves on top of the wind it would have been completely unmanageable. I've had people get sick onmy Pearson but bouncing around inside the benny at sea would almost guarentee that I'd be chumming...and I've never been sick.(knock on wood)

 

[Fred Ficarra]

I can't let this go,,,,,sorry.

Rich wrote:Fred - Not to pick on your friend but if a Tayana is hobbyhorsing as you describe; then, by removing many hundreds of pounds of windlass, chain, stowage, and fuel from the bow, etc. getting the boat back to it proper weight/trim and loading distribution, he'd have given you much less ego satisfaction... as he's got a longer waterline length -- and if a full ~1200 sq. ft. 'up', should have left you well 'back in the chop'. A loaded bow is great for downwind but certainly just the opposite for beating. You're obviously not telling the other half of the story or do you only 'ambush race' upwind? Sloops are always better upwind because of their much tighter tacking angles ----- too bad that you wernt 'racing' downwind (in 25+) as Im sure even with his higher PHRF rating (174 vs. ~145) but longer waterline length he'd have left you far behind in his wake. Its always fun to watch an IOR 'broach coach' struggling downwind with a full press of sail on; ..... a leisurely Sunday morning breakfast in a cutter. Rich, please re-read what I wrote. First we were motoring up the straight, side by side until he fell back. Same waves at the same time.His bow sprit was a design fixture that precluded corrections. We were both sloop rigged.WATERLINE LENGTH. His boat was only about 2.5 feet longer than mine. With his canoe stern, a downwind race trophy is on my mantle EVERY TIME. Upwind, our nearly IDENTICAL waterline lengths and his FULL KEEL mean that there NEVER has existed a wind and sea condition that makes his boat faster than mine. And that's not even counting the fact that my waterline length gets longer when I heel and his doesn't.Full keel against a modern under body!? NO-WAY that boat EVER BEATS MINE!Now the part about downwind racing in 25 knots of wind. PLEASE RE-READ AGAIN. We stomped that Tayana dead uphill. (like we do with ALL full keel boats!)Did I tell you about my buddies (He built our home) 50 foot full keel ketch? We were sailing across the straights from the San Juan's. He had full sails up and was beam reaching to Port Townsend. We went the opposite direction for 10 minutes to tune our shrouds and make adjustments. Then fell on his course. We caught and passed him in 20 minutes. Then we sailed CIRCLES AROUND HIM taking pictures. To say he was PISSED is a major understatement. He was a racer in a prior life. Good thing the house was finished!Edit: Oops, forgot to mention that while motoring up the straights to Neah Bay with our buddie boat in his Tayana, we had our 12 FOOT DINGY AND 25HP YAMAHA on our stern on DAVITS. Sorry, but I forgot. And carried it there at sea during our trip including the time buddie boating with our friend and his Tayana. You might say our 'trim' left a little to be desired too.Edit: Another thing: Under body. I mentioned IOR design as more of a time reference than a design criteria. Pick any modern design. They are nearly identical to mine. The keels vary but that's about it.

 

[Ross]

When ever you see two boats going

in the same direction, the one in front is racing, the one in back is cruising. I have no doubt that many boats have passed us while we are out and have had a good round of congradulatory drinks at the end of their day. I have the boat just for me to enjoy. I have no interest in finding out if it is faster, tougher, more seakindly, serves better wine or cooks better food than someones elses boat. If that is important to them I think that is just grand. I am content with what I have and don't care to try to prove anything to anyone.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Aw, come on Ross, what's your point?

I'll race a mosquito! And you're wrong about the 'racer' being in front. We pick targets from the rear.

 

[Ross]

Fred that may be true BUT you don't

intend to stay back there. Oh! MY point. Oh yes. Almost forgot. If being competitive lights your fire then do it. It's cool. But it is not me.

 

[tom]

Stiff good comfort good

Stiff from weight in the keel tends to make a boat comfortable. Stiif from a wide beam tends to make a boat that bounces around on the waves instead of plowing through the waves. Comparable to trotting on a quarter horse or riding a Tennessee walking horse. Stiff and fast comes from a wide beam and a lot of weight in the keel down low.  A lot of the comfort seems to be the shape of the bow and stern. More pointed means less bouncing and more plowing. Fat ends mean more volume and fat ends with less weight means more bouncing. Cruising boats tend to be fat and heavy. Racers tend to be skinny and light. I forget the title of a book that I wrote on yacht design but they broke up boats into classes for their intended use. But basically light beamy boats for daysailing and heavy narrower boats for blue water cruising with a couple of intermediates. A pacific seacraft 37 would be an example of a world cruiser. A catalina 22 a daysailer/overnighter. The Catalina gets it's stiffness from the hull's shape and the PS37 from a lot of weight in the keel. To my mind some designers try to make a bigger catalina 22 and call it a world cruiser. But a 35' Catalina 22 is still a daysailer/overnighter.