Is a tilt trailer worth using

[davidmhull]

I am getting ready to get my trailer galvanized and have a question about the tilt feature. I will be launching a fixed keel 22' oday with about 2' draft. I am considering an extension for the tongue since where I plan to launch is fairly shallow until you get out a ways. I was playing around with the tilt taking off the old rusty chains and pins and it looks like it would be pretty handy to get the boat in the water in a hurry without having to back up so far. Are they actually useful or just a gimmick? Do any of you guys use your tilt on this class of boat? I did a search but didn't come up with anything. Thanks very much in advance.

 

[Brian S]

I don't think they do as much for a sailboat as a tongue extension would.

I have a tilt trailer on my 15' daysailer. I guess it helped when I did lawn launch, in order to careen it and work on the centerboard. On the other hand, at a very shallow ramp, I still don't think it helped much at all. Perhaps because the trailer tiled more forward than I think it ought to.

For my 192, I'd rather have the tongue extension so I can float the boat on and off. I don't winch it on very far.

 

[greenminnow]

If the boat is heavy enough that you need to float it off, the tilt feature most likely won't help. The tongue extender will be very beneficial for launch and retrieve.
Brian

 

[davidmhull]

Thanks for the replies. I'm getting the impression that nobody really uses the tilt feature. I think I will keep it intact however just in case.

 

[watercolors II]

Not recommended

As others have stated, you can dump your boat into the water but, during recovery you need to float the boat onto the trailer.

During recovery a trailer with rollers would be needed to eliminate the friction caused by bunks and then you would still be lifting up to 1000 lbs., with a 22 foot sailboat, this would stretch the limits on the trailer winch and work on the hulls bow eye to become loose.

 

[dscribner]

I tow a 25 footer and launch every weekend (June to September). Our trailer has rollers and it's a god thing. Most days, if I bury the rubber of my back tires, I can put my shoulder to the bow and launch the beast. But, more recently, I winch it off. I have a block down at the cross member of the trailer, right in front of the keel. A length of Sta Set from the winch, through the block and back. I hook the winch strap to a loop in the line and pull the other end, thereby pulling the strap down to the front of the keel. By doing this, I pull another loop forward to the bow eye. I slip it over the bow eye and the bitter end through the eye (as a pin). Now, by winching, I pull the boat off the trailer. Once floating, a quick tug on the bow line disengages it, A couple of really lousy knots to keep the line out of trouble and I'm launched and with no lower back pain. I'll sketch it up if it would be helpful to anyone.

 

[davidmhull]

Hi dscribner. I would love to see a sketch of that. You kind of lost me there on your description. I'm a firm believer in using outhauls in general and this has to be the mother of them all. My trailer only has one roller on it which is located just as the keel starts to make contact. The rest of the contact area is just boards with cleats to guide the keel in straight. The keel just rests on these boards. I'm assuming this is all that's needed since the previous owner certainly launched from it. The roller apparently takes a lot of weight because the brackets are twisted all to crap and the roller is pretty much shot. I started working on making up new heavy duty brackets yesterday. I hope that with a tongue extension and your outhaul idea I can get this baby off and on the trailer in fairly shallow water. I say fairly shallow because the launch site is in tidal water and if you catch it at low tide it's only about three feet deep at the back end of the ramp. Thanks.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

As a former sailboat dealer, I would not recommend a tilt trailer for a larger boat due to the weight issues which is a safety issue with me. Yes it is great on the smaller saiboats like the Preceision 15 which I use to own one and sold them as well. There are all types of trailers and the rollers if adjusted correctly can help with the fixed keel resting on a keel tray (fixed). However, if a hull is solely resting on the rollers, you better have alot of rollers as a few will indent the hull.

however, many folks forget that when you have a fixed keel, it is harder to get the boat on and off a trailer unless you have the trailer set up for launching particularly the deep fin keel boats. However, there is an option of drop down axles which are available allowing you to lower the trailer down for esier launching.

 

[davidmhull]

Hi Dave. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. I'm sure as a former dealer you have seen a lot more trailers then most. On my trailer there is only one roller which takes the weight and acts as sort of a guide until the keel tray is reached and then there is nothing touching the roller. The bracket that holds the roller on my trailer is obviously inadequate because it is bent like a pretzel and the roller itself is shot. The rollers seem to be reasonable priced at about $30.00 for the roller itself, the axle shaft and the clips that secure the shaft. I am going to water jet some brackets this weekend out of at least 3/8" stock and send them to be galvanized along with the trailer. Do you have an opinion on if a strap type trailer winch is better then a cable type? I need to replace my winch and I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

 

[dscribner]

Dave,

This is how I winch it off. Don't judge. Just a sketch.

Don

 

[davidmhull]

That's pretty slick dscribner. It took me a minute to figure out what you are doing there but it all makes perfect sense now. Thanks so much for the sketches. As in most things a picture is worth a thousand words. As I said, this has got to me the mother of outhauls. I'll have to get a good bit of the transom in the water to pull the keel out of the keel tray but I can see this working very nicely. If it doesn't have enough oomph I can add a block and multiply the force. I would much rather do a bunch of cranking then a bunch of shoving on the bow with my shoulder. Thanks so much.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Davidmhull;

Although the metal cable will last longer but when it really gets entangled on the winch, it could be hard to pull out. Also if you forget to tighten up the cable, I have seen it where it slapped against the bow doing damage. I would go with a strap that is rated for the weight of the boat.

Generally a roller from your description will help to get the bow up and in many cases I found them to be a hindrance. I would like to see a photo of the bunks, keel tray and that roller before going any further so I know what I am looking at. However, there are plastic vhf protected pieces that can be added to the bunks vs. carpet that will help to get the boat onto the trailer easier. If the keel tray is just metal, not good either. A photo or two would be most helpful sir.

 

[davidmhull]

I took some pictures of the trailer before I stripped it. It is at the sandblaster now and will be galvanized by next Wednesday. I was planning on putting it back together the same way that I found it because I'm assuming it worked before and it should work again. If you have any suggestions for improvement then please feel free. The roller brackets came out of the water jet really nice and all of the bunk supports will be replaced as well. Thanks for taking a look.

 

[watercolors II]

Roller use on trailers

The angle of the ramp and the hull floating level on top of the water above the trailer, I do not think the roller is needed in it,’s present position, unless you are trying to winch the hull out of the water onto the trailer.

If you float the hull onto the trailer the keel would not come in contact with the roller until the the trailer is pulled from the water and then the keel comes in contact with the back end of the keel tray forward of the roller.

Move the roller to the rear end of the forward section of the keel tray.

How many times have you backed down into the water to reposition the stern of the boat so that the rear end of the keel is centered between those very very small keel guides at the back end of the keel tray? I would make those guides almost as high as the keel is and wider at the top so when the hull and keel are floating above on the ramp and the stern starts to come in contact with them as the trailer is pulled out of the water, this guide would guide the bottom edge of the keel over to the center of the guides. No more repositioning the stern during recovery.

Your photo shows the back end of the keel about an inch above the keel tray. Make sure the keel is resting evenly at both ends of the keel. A fixed keel with a drop board, the keel should carry the weight of the hull, the bunks only support the sides from heeling during towing.

I have found that a hull roller around 1/3 of the distance from the front of the keel to the trailer winch will help lift the bow up out of the water and sink the stern to help reduce friction by the leading edges of the bunks until the last 18 inches, that’s when the winch starts winching. When pulling from the water the stern settles further down on the back of the bunks lifting the bow above this front bow roller. So, with the hull in it’s final resting place on the trailer, place this bow roller about 1/2 to 3/4 inch below the hull so as to not cause a pressure point on the hull during flexing of the trailer during towing.

 

[davidmhull]

I read your comments over a couple of times to try to make sense of it. Not your fault at all ( I have been hit by too many booms). I really like the idea of adding some height to the rear guides. Makes complete sense. The roller that was there obviously wasn't doing much because as you can see the bracket took a crap a long time ago. I think I see what you mean by moving the roller up toward the front. Easy enough to do. Check the picture and make sure I understand where I should put it. You say also to mount it 3/4" or so below the normal resting plane of the keel correct? I'm assuming you want it to bump the roller and get a good start on the front tray but not live there. Do you have any ideas about raising those rear guides on the tray? I wouldn't think a big stack of wood is going to be strong enough.

 

[greenminnow]

Dave,

This is how I winch it off. Don't judge. Just a sketch.

Don

Don,
Thanks for sharing, that is really clever!!!
Brian

 

[watercolors II]

I’m talking about 2 rollers, one for the keel and one for the bow of the boat. The keel roller would help reducing the friction of the keel on the front section of the keel pan as shown in the single photo, as you winch the boat the last foot onto the trailer. I can see by the small keel guides on the pan that the keel only fits about 6 inches onto this front pan, this roller would have to be LEVEL with the pan to be effective. Taller guides there would be a big help in centering the front of the keel as you winch the hull forward. If you are off by 3 to 4 inches the keel may not go dead center between what I see pictured.

The second roller would go in front of that small cross bunk in front of the keel pan. As the hull is floated onto the trailer the hull would come into contact with this bunk. As you winch the hull forward it would have to slide up over this bunk. Think of what your trailer looks like sitting in the water on the angled launch ramp. With the boat sitting level on the water above the trailer, this cross bunk would be much higher towards the top of the water than the rear bunks. From the front of the hull towards the keel the bottom of the hull gets deeper and deeper into the water. The deeper part of the hull comes in contact with this cross bunk long before you have the hull winched into it’s final resting place. As the hull has to slide up this bunk friction is created, stress is added on the bow eye in the bow and also is added to the winch and cable. A roller placed in front of this cross member would be higher than the cross bunk sitting on the angled ramp, as the bow comes in it would make contact with this roller before the hull further back would make contact with the bunk. As the hull moves forward on this roller it would continue to lift higher and higher out of the water. It would then sink the stern to start mirroring the angle of the trailer under the water. This is the roller that should be lower than the hull when the boat is removed from the water.

See attached photos of front hull rollers!


Test; as you float the boat onto the trailer place one or two people at the stern of the boat to sink the stern deeper into the water. The bow will now lift higher out of the water and winching the hull forward will now become easier. This bow roller takes the place of these people in the stern of the boat.

The rear keel guides must be high to come in contact with the rear end of the keel. When the hull is winch up to it’s final place the rear end of the keel could be floating a foot above the rear end of the keel pan.

 

[davidmhull]

Thanks watercolor. Does your boat rest on the bunk boards and the roller? I don't see a keel tray. You can see in the pictures of my setup that the bunk boards are way the heck up the sides of the hull. They literally just keep the boat from falling over. When she is sitting on the tray you can put your fingers between the bunk boards and the hull unless you rock it toward you. What I have is WAY different then what you have. You have to understand that I have never launched this boat from this trailer. I have sailed all my life but this is my first trailer sailor so I really don't know how the boat is going to behave at the ramp. Thanks so much for taking time to provide pictures and provide advice.

 

[watercolors II]

Having never trailered a boat before you have not encountered all of the problems of loading the boat back on the trailer and the problems you’re going to have. Until you experience those problems you will not understand what I’ve been trying to tell you on fixing up this trailer.

The photos I have supplied are all of swing keel boats in which the bunks carry the weight of the hull and half of the weight of the keel rests on the center of the trailer. Your hull configuration with the drop board and fixed keel has to sit on a long keel support to carry the weight which is different but, the extra little additions for loading the boat are the same for both models. The alignment of the keel and the bow roller for lifting the bow is a must.

I know you want to fix this trailer up but, until you do a number of recoveries you’ll not understand the changes you need to make. Launching is easy, getting the boat back on the trailer is the hard part!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Davidmhull

I looked over the photos you posted and there are many issues. First you have a shoal draft keel. In one photo, the keel tray is wood and short with the rear of the keel not down on the keel tray. There is a roller just aft of the keel tray. Then you have an cradle style support for the forward hull area. Here are my suggestions.

Remove that cradle style contraption and the short keel tray to include the roller. I would suggest the following.

1. Longer more stout keel tray for the entire length of the shoal draft keel as this will carry the weight of the boat. You want that resting completely on the keel tray. If a metal keel tray, affix a thin piece of marine treated wood but if marine treated wood, then affix carpet. You will need to raise or lower the bunk boards which are designed in this case to keep the boat upright.

2. Add a winch stand with winch and bow rubber snubber or something like that is pictured by watercolors. The arm protruding out does not need to be that far.

3. Make sure that 10% of the entire weight of the boat and trailer is on the hitch for safety reasons particularly if there are no brakes on the trailer this being a single axle.

4. I would add a roller on the front brace going across the trailer right in front of that winch stand so the bow area of the hull will not hit that portion of the trailer.
KERMIT, POST A PHOTO OF YOURS SO EVERYONE WILL SEE WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

5. I could not tell if your axle is welded to the trailer or can be moved. Do that only in trying to adjust the weight.

6. Add new carpet on the bunks.

7. Also, purchase guide ons for attachment to the back end of the trailer to guide it onto the trailer.

I learned from Ron Frisosky who designed sailboat trailers for nearly every sailboat out there. He is now deceased but learned a lot from him plus my involvement with the water ballast Hunters too.