I'm planning to move to SE FL (West Palm Beach - Ft Lauderdale area) when I retire in a few years and hope to spend time cruising the Keys and/or the Bahamas. (Not live aboard - live aboard; just live aboard for 2-4 weeks at a time and then back home for a month and then repeat.) I'm 6'4 - 230# and am no longer limber enough to "skamper" about a pitching deck. (I sold my Precision 18 [which I liked] because the deck wasn't stable enough for me to safely sail her.) Between now and retirement, I'll sail up here in the MN-WI area. So I'm not in a hurry but I don't want to pass up the right boat if I see it. I am looking for the right boat: Keel-Centerboard, not a project boat, not a slow slug, and something that I can put on a trailer for the off season. Until very recently I was considering the Precision 23 as the best pick for my needs. But then I ran across a couple of Irwins; very interesting. Precision23 -phrf 228 - draft 1'11-5'4 - beam 8'6 -2500# - outboard -headrm 4'+ Irwin 25CB - phrf 231 - draft 2'8-6'8 - beam 8'0 - 5400# - outboard -headrm 5'9 Irwin 10/4 - phrf 228 - draft 2'9-6'8 - beam 10'4 -7000# - inboard - headrm 5'9 So the question is: *How do these two Irwins compare in sailing characteristics. Can I assume that the 10/4 is more stable initially (won't heal as much in light/medium air) but the trade off is that its motion is not as easy in a chop? Has anyone had experience with sailing both of these models? *Is the engine on the 10/4 accessible or do you need to be a contortionist like on my old Allied Seawind (you could touch it with either hand not both or you could see it; you pick) *Are there any red flag issues that I need to look for [be aware of] when I look at one of these boats? I plan to look at one of each of these Irwins this weekend so I'd appreciate any input you can give me. I thank you in advance for any help/advice you can give me. TT
Irwin 25 (8' beam) vs Irwin 10/4 (25' w 10' beam)
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I'l give you some input without knowing any one of them
Your figures answer a lot of your questions, so if boat condition is similar: The precision 23 is the smallest and the lightest and is tied for the slowest by PHRF, even with an OB that can be retracted from the water. At that weight it will bounce around in waves much more than the others. It would also appear to be very small inside, so for a person of your height it would not seem suitable. I would expect it to be a more classic trailerable and worth less money. The 25CB is more boat both inside and outside, it is the quickest of the three by PHRF and should be with a longer waterline (a presumption due to length) and a narrower beam. It too has an OB that can be retracted for boat speed. At it's weight it should be a more solid boat and handle better in waves than the 23, and with an 8 foot beam it is easily trailerable. It looks like it can accommodate your size and could be a candidate for 1st place if you want to keep it on the trailer all the time. The 10/4 is the most boat of the three. It is slower than the 25CB but that would be expected by the weight, the added beam, and the existence of a propeller to cause drag in the water. It's beam, it's weight, and the inclusion of an inboard would make this one the most cruise-able and sea-kindly of the three, but with the 10 foot beam, its width may cause problems with trailing, and may have to be kept in the water during the season. You could put it on a trailer and get a permit to trail it home after the season however. That could make this to be both more expensive to buy, and more expensive to own, but it should be more boat. I don't know for sure but the engine may be an Atomic Four and may be raw water cooled (salt water) and Fresh water cooled is better. In addition to the engine, it will have fuel tanks or a fuel tank, which will take up some of the interior, compensated for by the extra beam. If you are OK with leaving it in the water this is the one I would prefer to cruise. The inboard counts for a lot. You can eliminate scampering around on deck by proper set up. Roller furling on the jib, jiffy reefing on the main with all halyards, reef lines, boom vang, a main downhaul, and all sheets led to the cockpit. I hope that someone with more direct knowledge answers your questions, because thats the best I can do. Good luck Joe S
Your figures answer a lot of your questions, so if boat condition is similar: The precision 23 is the smallest and the lightest and is tied for the slowest by PHRF, even with an OB that can be retracted from the water. At that weight it will bounce around in waves much more than the others. It would also appear to be very small inside, so for a person of your height it would not seem suitable. I would expect it to be a more classic trailerable and worth less money. The 25CB is more boat both inside and outside, it is the quickest of the three by PHRF and should be with a longer waterline (a presumption due to length) and a narrower beam. It too has an OB that can be retracted for boat speed. At it's weight it should be a more solid boat and handle better in waves than the 23, and with an 8 foot beam it is easily trailerable. It looks like it can accommodate your size and could be a candidate for 1st place if you want to keep it on the trailer all the time. The 10/4 is the most boat of the three. It is slower than the 25CB but that would be expected by the weight, the added beam, and the existence of a propeller to cause drag in the water. It's beam, it's weight, and the inclusion of an inboard would make this one the most cruise-able and sea-kindly of the three, but with the 10 foot beam, its width may cause problems with trailing, and may have to be kept in the water during the season. You could put it on a trailer and get a permit to trail it home after the season however. That could make this to be both more expensive to buy, and more expensive to own, but it should be more boat. I don't know for sure but the engine may be an Atomic Four and may be raw water cooled (salt water) and Fresh water cooled is better. In addition to the engine, it will have fuel tanks or a fuel tank, which will take up some of the interior, compensated for by the extra beam. If you are OK with leaving it in the water this is the one I would prefer to cruise. The inboard counts for a lot. You can eliminate scampering around on deck by proper set up. Roller furling on the jib, jiffy reefing on the main with all halyards, reef lines, boom vang, a main downhaul, and all sheets led to the cockpit. I hope that someone with more direct knowledge answers your questions, because thats the best I can do. Good luck Joe S
Here is something else that might help
http://www.irwinyachts.com/aft-cockpit_files/AFT1.htm Looks like the 10/4 could have an optional Yanmar diesel.
http://www.irwinyachts.com/aft-cockpit_files/AFT1.htm Looks like the 10/4 could have an optional Yanmar diesel.
Thanks Joe
I appreciate your comments. Speed: These 3 boats are virtually the same speed with the 25 being only 3 seconds per mile faster. If I understand the rating system, a significant difference would be for example between the Santana 23 at 171 and the Seaward 23 at 285; the Santana is 114 seconds per mile faster. I'm not saying anything bad about the Seaward. It is clearly a nicer, more comfortable heavier boat with much more to offer the cruiser. And the Santana might be pretty Spartan quarters for a two week cruise with 2 people aboard. Irwin 25 - LOA 25'6 - LWL 20'6 - Beam 8'0 - 2000 15hp Yamaha Irwin 10/4 -LOA 25'4 -LWL 21'10 -Beam 10'4 - 15HP Volvo gasoline inboard I'm surprised that with these two Irwins being virtually the same length and the 10/4 being 2000# heavier, that it is still as fast as the lighter boat. That is saying a lot for the design. But as you pointed out, it will not be fun or cheep to trailer. So it is a boat that goes in the water once per year and stays until the end of the season. What I would like to hear about is whether the beamier 10/4 is more or is it less comfortable in a chop than the 25? And which one will be more easy to control as the wind picks up?
I appreciate your comments. Speed: These 3 boats are virtually the same speed with the 25 being only 3 seconds per mile faster. If I understand the rating system, a significant difference would be for example between the Santana 23 at 171 and the Seaward 23 at 285; the Santana is 114 seconds per mile faster. I'm not saying anything bad about the Seaward. It is clearly a nicer, more comfortable heavier boat with much more to offer the cruiser. And the Santana might be pretty Spartan quarters for a two week cruise with 2 people aboard. Irwin 25 - LOA 25'6 - LWL 20'6 - Beam 8'0 - 2000 15hp Yamaha Irwin 10/4 -LOA 25'4 -LWL 21'10 -Beam 10'4 - 15HP Volvo gasoline inboard I'm surprised that with these two Irwins being virtually the same length and the 10/4 being 2000# heavier, that it is still as fast as the lighter boat. That is saying a lot for the design. But as you pointed out, it will not be fun or cheep to trailer. So it is a boat that goes in the water once per year and stays until the end of the season. What I would like to hear about is whether the beamier 10/4 is more or is it less comfortable in a chop than the 25? And which one will be more easy to control as the wind picks up?
I would think that the 10/4 would be much more comfortable
It is also as fast as the 23 because it has more sail area. The 23 would appear to be a day sailor with a cudy cabin, The 10/4 is a Pocket cruiser. The 25CB is between the two with cruising accommodations closer to the 10/4 Play with this link it may help some http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
It is also as fast as the 23 because it has more sail area. The 23 would appear to be a day sailor with a cudy cabin, The 10/4 is a Pocket cruiser. The 25CB is between the two with cruising accommodations closer to the 10/4 Play with this link it may help some http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Carl's Calculator - A great help
Thanks for the link to Carl's Calculator. That was a great help in evaluating the performance characteristics that I needed. The motion comfort rating (even though created by Brewer "tongue in cheek") was helpful in making the comparison that I needed. Soon to be an Irwin owner... TT
Thanks for the link to Carl's Calculator. That was a great help in evaluating the performance characteristics that I needed. The motion comfort rating (even though created by Brewer "tongue in cheek") was helpful in making the comparison that I needed. Soon to be an Irwin owner... TT
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