Irrational fear / Keel Bolts

[ontherocks83]

No I am not "afraid" of keel bolts, I just don't like what I can't inspect/see.

The situation is:

Our partner in NH on Lake Winnipesaukee dropped out last year on our old Catalina 30, and since she definitely was not ocean worthy so we sold her off.

We now potentially (the wifes approval being the "potential" part

) have a line on a 1 owner 1984 Catalina 30 out of Narragansett Bay. The price is very reasonable and the owner is a close family friend that I have known since I was born.

I know the history on the boat and the maintenance that was done on it.

The boat has been dry docked/winterized in his yard for the last 4 years due to health reasons.

I plan on getting a survey and getting the engine running and checking the operation of all the systems. But the one thing you can't see is if there is corrosion on the keel bolts at the keelhull joint.

I have absolutely no reason to believe anything in the keel is compromised or in poor condition. Themaintenance on the boat has been impeccable and knowing the owner and his family the boat has not been "abused". He's never even let it leave dock with out him on it.

Now to the "irrational fear" part, Aside from torquing the keel nuts to full spec to make sure thefiberglass or plywood is not compromised I have no other way to check for corrosion of the keel bolts from unknown water ingress. There is no cracking at the keel hull joint (aside from the catalina smile which is normal) and no other evidence to lead me to believe there is a problem. So I guess the big question is, Is there a point in a boats life where you should drop the keel to check the bolts as regular maintenance or do you wait for certain signs before doing anything?

If this deal goes through I will be leaving the lake for good and keeping the boat in Narragansett bay.

Which I've been wanting to do for a very, very long time and I am very excited about upgrading to the ocean!!!!!! But with that comes some anticipation of the unknown and what I can't inspect. You all have much bigger waves on the ocean

and things I wouldn't worry about on the lake I am second guessing for the ocean.

So am I being ridiculous about phantom corrosion on keel bolts or due to age is there something I should be doing before or after purchasing?

 

[JohnVTX]

Fix the smile.

 

[Benny17441]

Is your fear for safety or financial? You are likely to receive early warning signs before safety is compromised. On the financial end once those early warning signs show up your fears will become reality. I would check on haul out for survey that the keel is not weeping at the joint and there is no movement. I would check that the bolts are not leaking and that the nuts can be loosened and re-torqued one at a time. If all checked out I would feel comfortable as far as safety and then hope for the best as far as any repair in the future. Just think that you are getting a reasonable price which should offset the possibility of any repair expenses in the future.

 

[ontherocks83]

Is your fear for safety or financial? You are likely to receive early warning signs before safety is compromised. On the financial end once those early warning signs show up your fears will become reality. I would check on haul out for survey that the keel is not weeping at the joint and there is no movement. I would check that the bolts are not leaking and that the nuts can be loosened and re-torqued one at a time. If all checked out I would feel comfortable as far as safety and then hope for the best as far as any repair in the future. Just think that you are getting a reasonable price which should offset the possibility of any repair expenses in the future.

Purely safety.
I am not made of money and am on a budget but I am of the mindset that anyone that owns a boat (including me) is stupid . They are the worlds biggest waste of money, but they are an addiction that I can not live without. I try to save money where possible, but am willing to spend what is necessary to have a happy safe boat.

Any idea on a ball park to seperate and rebed a keel?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Purely safety.
I am not made of money and am on a budget but I am of the mindset that anyone that owns a boat (including me) is stupid . They are the worlds biggest waste of money, but they are an addiction that I can not live without. I try to save money where possible, but am willing to spend what is necessary to have a happy safe boat.

Any idea on a ball park to seperate and rebed a keel?

So, why would you wish to hear from a bunch of "stupid" boat owners? You'll spend what is necessary to have a happy safe boat, but you won't spend what is necessary to find out its condition in the most worrisome feature to you? Umm... Typical.

 

[JohnVTX]

So, why would you wish to hear from a bunch of "stupid" boat owners? You'll spend what is necessary to have a happy safe boat, but you won't spend what is necessary to find out its condition in the most worrisome feature to you? Umm... Typical.

He said he was getting a survey

 

[mortyd]

aren't you also worried that your surveyor is incapable to see if the keel is falling off?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

His q was what is a ballpark $$ to remove/robed the keel.

How about calling some yards near you and ask them rather than us "stupid" boat owners?

 

[ontherocks83]

Awwwww guys relax. The stupid part was a tongue in cheek joke. Maybe I should clarify. Owning a boat (unless independently wealthy) is an unwise (I.e. stupid) financial investment. However I also said that I am one of those people that doesnt care that is unwise and am willing to spend what it takes because I love sailing that much. My primary question should have been has anyone run into this before on a C30 and if so what did it cost you to fix?

Also to clarify another point made I am absolutely willing to spend the money needed on the keel to make a safe boat. I just wanted to get your opinions on whether or not you thought I was being "chicken little" or is the sky safe from falling another day?

 

[JohnVTX]

Chicken little. Survey, fix smile and move on. C30's are not known for their keels falling off.

 

[mz4wheeler]

Aside from torquing the keel nuts to full spec to make sure thefiberglass or plywood is not compromised.

Good test for a buyer but as a seller I would never allow this.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Awwwww guys relax. The stupid part was a tongue in cheek joke. Maybe I should clarify. Owning a boat (unless independently wealthy) is an unwise (I.e. stupid) financial investment. However I also said that I am one of those people that doesnt care that is unwise and am willing to spend what it takes because I love sailing that much. My primary question should have been has anyone run into this before on a C30 and if so what did it cost you to fix?

Also to clarify another point made I am absolutely willing to spend the money needed on the keel to make a safe boat. I just wanted to get your opinions on whether or not you thought I was being "chicken little" or is the sky safe from falling another day?

Owning a boat for recreational purposes is never a financial investment per se; financially, it's hardly more than owning a depreciating asset that cannot be written off. If anyone thinks it's a financial investment then I would put that person in the category of having a "stupid notion." But, it is an investment in your life-long recreation. It's a much sounder one in my opinion than those that consume cash or credit (like expensive vacations, city nightlife, and etc.) so that when you're done--it's over--nothing left except "memories" and a few pictures to boot. At the end of the road I'd rather have my well-cared-for boat that gave my wife and me countless hours of enjoyment to pass along for someone else to enjoy. Maybe that's what your close family friend is doing for you. Hope you'll be able to appreciate it.

 

[CloudDiver]

The hull is already out of the water... I'd take the opportunity to do the preemptive maintenance and dig out that plywood core, replace with glass/G-10 to include the mast compression support that is also wood. Let me clarify, its only 'preemptive' if you discover the keel stub core is bone dry... If you find that its wet, then it becomes 'required'. Have confidence in a keel stub that is solid, verify good keel bolts, and fix the smile in one go. Here is an older post that is a great example of this repair;
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/catalina-bilge-plywood-repair.130084/

 

[Capt jgw]

If the boat's been on the hard for a few years one of the key indicators is missing: On haulout if water is seen weeping from the hull / keel joint, that's not good. It means water has intruded into the joint and may have started working on the bolts. If that water is rusty, that's really bad. It means that the water has been working on the bolts long enough to degrade them. The bolts are sized to give a wide safety margin, but that margin has started to thin. You just don't know how much.
Unless the bottom has been painted since haulout, there may be water trails left by any weeping. No trails and the bottom hasn't been painted, that's good. Brown trails? Real bad. It's that simple.
The "Catalina Smile" is very common and considered not an issue, if no rusty water weeps out. Asmentioned earlier, just patch it and move on.
I have a 1969 Columbia 36, and they have the same smile. But mine has been bleeding rust for years. Last fall I was finally too scared to run it another season so I went ahead and dropped the keel. I store in a yard that lets you do your own work (most do here on Lake Michigan) so I can't quote yard rates for the work. I pulled the nuts off and had the yard lift the hull off the keel. The forward most bolt was rusted to nothing in the joint, it actually broke off when I turned the nut. The other 8 bolts were in pristine condition in the joint but were very rusted at the tops. I went ahead and replaced all of them. The yard charged me $180 each way to lift the boat, and I spent about $100 on the bolts and nuts, for a total of $460. I won't count the cost of tools as I will get to use them on other jobs. All in all the job went much better than I expected. I now have confidence that my keel won't fall off.

 

[CloudDiver]

Here is a really detailed blog in the event that you have to replace the keel bolts, plus the similar keel stub repair;
https://jeunesse27.wordpress.com/projects/

 

[ontherocks83]

Owning a boat for recreational purposes is never a financial investment per se; financially, it's hardly more than owning a depreciating asset thatgreat cannot be written off. If anyone thinks it's a financial investment then I would put that person in the category of having a "stupid notion." But, it is an investment in your life-long recreation. It's a much sounder one in my opinion than those that consume cash or credit (like expensive vacations, city nightlife, and etc.) so that when you're done--it's over--nothing left except "memories" and a few pictures to boot. At the end of the road I'd rather have my well-cared-for boat that gave my wife and me countless hours of enjoyment to pass along for someone else to enjoy. Maybe that's what your close family friend is doing for you. Hope you'll be able to appreciate it.

well said.

My family and I have had our last boat for 25 years. Now that i have children, I want them to have what i had growing up. The waste of boat money is worth its weight in gold to me in memories. My fear is going from reckless 20 something former marine to mid 30's parent and hudband and not wanting to miss simple safety things with my family. I.e. former tough guy becoming worrisome father of a 4 year old and 1 year old.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Good test for a buyer but as a seller I would never allow this.

Quite right--though he didn't say that he planned to ask the seller to do this. But if that is the plan, don't.

 

[ontherocks83]

Quite right--though he didn't say that he planned to ask the seller to do this. But if that is the plan, don't.

I understand the sentiment but before I buy the boat I want the engine started and the bolts torqued. Even if they dont torque I still want the boat, I just want to know what I am getting into before I get it. Again it is a very close family friend wanting the boat to go to someone he knows. Also part of the deal at MY suggestion is that he has to come out with me frequently to teach me the area. Again I am a lake sailor not an ocean goer yet.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I understand the sentiment but before I buy the boat I want the engine started and the bolts torqued. Even if they dont torque I still want the boat, I just want to know what I am getting into before I get it. Again it is a very close family friend wanting the boat to go to someone he knows. Also part of the deal at MY suggestion is that he has to come out with me frequently to teach me the area. Again I am a lake sailor not an ocean goer yet.

Well, whatever is mutually agreeable to you and the seller is just fine! It's an unusual expectation and I'd never agree to such a thing as a seller, but you have a history with this person and so it's a bit different. Of course, the fact that you are going to buy it either way (and presumably at the same price?) makes the timing of it kinda academic.

Starting the engine is, of course, an altogether different matter--not in the least an unusual request.

 

[Benny17441]

Purely safety.

Any idea on a ball park to seperate and rebed a keel?

If purely safety, I would not worry about it unless you intend to cruise offshore. The keel will give you plenty of warning signs before it falls off. Let the surveyor inspect the hull/keel joint and you can re-torque the nuts and if no leaks or loose bolts are found I would not worry. As prices for such jobs vary in different areas get a couple of estimates from Yards in your area.