Interior Varnish

[jibes138]

Yeah, I have never worked with shellac and don't recommend it. The reason I don't recommend it is because my good friend RichH has studied these things and knows best and he does not recommend it. Your boat, your money, so do whatever you want, but if you use shellac don't come here looking for advice.

 

[justsomeguy]

Yeah, I have never worked with shellac and don't recommend it. The reason I don't recommend it is because my good friend RichH has studied these things and knows best and he does not recommend it. Your boat, your money, so do whatever you want, but if you use shellac don't come here looking for advice.

So that's another "no", based on no experience using it on a sailboat's interior.

Got it. Thank you, David.

 

[RichH]

Yeah, I have never worked with shellac and don't recommend it. The reason I don't recommend it is because my good friend RichH has studied these things and knows best and he does not recommend it. Your boat, your money, so do whatever you want, but if you use shellac don't come here looking for advice.

Actually it was from helping my Dad. He'd work up a 'museum grade' shellac/french-polished piece, give it to someone and a few years later would be uncontrollably sobbing because of the water damage.
Yeah, I like/prefer shellac on stained interior window trim, etc. ... but I can run it through a planer if it gets rain-soaked and I need to re-do.

 

[woodster]

Thanks. Anyone else, other than bonhomme Richard?

you don't need any one else besides Richard :theman:he has told you the exact truth and the facts of life when it comes to shellac stuff looks great in the governors mansion but not on a boat ...the carriages at williamsberg va are done in french polish/shellac and it is almost a lost art if you use it out of a can like varnish you are only kidding your self

 

[justsomeguy]

you don't need any one else besides Richard :theman:he has told you the exact truth and the facts of life when it comes to shellac stuff looks great in the governors mansion but not on a boat ...the carriages at williamsberg va are done in french polish/shellac and it is almost a lost art if you use it out of a can like varnish you are only kidding your self

Well, yes I do. Call me an iconoclast.

Let me be the first to ask "why not use shellac?"

Easy repairs, water resistant, low odor, non-toxic, etc.

"...the facts of life when it comes to shellac..."

I have used it, as I wrote, with good results.

No one else has? Why not?

 

[philwsailz]

Okay, I'll bite.

As a wood boat restorer and self-taught student of cabinetry construction and finishing, I think I know plenty enough about shellac to not use it in a high-humidity environment. Shellac clouds easily in high humidity, and is easly damaged by water if left standing for any length of time.

THERE IS THAT CHANCE THOUGH that what you are using is not what we are picturing as shellac. Can you share with the group what product, (brand, any other identifiers, etc) you are using? The exact product you are using might in fact be appropriate... You might have some synthetic version or ther might be additives or polymers added that improve upon pure shellac. All the while we are poo poo-ing your use of what we think is pure shellac, based on our perceptions rather than fact or truth. Chemically speaking, the shellac I know of in its purest form is ground insect secretion that is dissolved in alcohol.

French polishing is a method whereby using a saturated rag inside a dry rag you gently rub the surface at just the right speed with just the right pressure to apply a thin layer of the bug secretion/alcohol solution where the alcohol quickly evaporates, leaving behind the solids. Too wet and you risk lifting previous layers...

You can brush shellac certainly, but in practice shellac is usually only used as a seal coat over stain to keep varnish from lifting stain upon application. For a surface that might see abuse or abrasion it is nowhere near as tough or robust as varnish or polyurethane.

 

[justsomeguy]

Okay, I'll bite.

As a wood boat restorer and self-taught student of cabinetry construction and finishing, I think I know plenty enough about shellac to not use it in a high-humidity environment. Shellac clouds easily in high humidity, and is easly damaged by water if left standing for any length of time.

THERE IS THAT CHANCE THOUGH that what you are using is not what we are picturing as shellac. Can you share with the group what product, (brand, any other identifiers, etc) you are using? The exact product you are using might in fact be appropriate... You might have some synthetic version or ther might be additives or polymers added that improve upon pure shellac. All the while we are poo poo-ing your use of what we think is pure shellac, based on our perceptions rather than fact or truth. Chemically speaking, the shellac I know of in its purest form is ground insect secretion that is dissolved in alcohol.

French polishing is a method whereby using a saturated rag inside a dry rag you gently rub the surface at just the right speed with just the right pressure to apply a thin layer of the bug secretion/alcohol solution where the alcohol quickly evaporates, leaving behind the solids. Too wet and you risk lifting previous layers...

You can brush shellac certainly, but in practice shellac is usually only used as a seal coat over stain to keep varnish from lifting stain upon application. For a surface that might see abuse or abrasion it is nowhere near as tough or robust as varnish or polyurethane.

Sorry, I'm in the middle of a starter motor swapout.

Regular old Zinsser shellac, many coats, never mind the techniques like "French polishing" or the descriptor "chatoyance". That's so...je ne sais quois.

Consider too the usefulness of the amber grains as sealant: shellac can become so watertight that it was once applied between the layers of planks on wooden sailing ships.

 

[philwsailz]

Consider too the usefulness of the amber grains as sealant: shellac can become so watertight that it was once applied between the layers of planks on wooden sailing ships.

I can't make that leap with you... You are quoting shellac application advice for marine use from a vintage wooden music box site? Great source...

Heck, it might be a good waterproofer, but those sailors of old probably didn't consider the space between the layers of planks on their wooden sailing ships as interior brightwork... It might keep the underlying wood dry but it sure as heck probably looked like almost dried Elmer's glue... If you want waterproof as your link suggests, why not use 5200 as a finish????

Hah hah, I bet you won't use shellac to seal up your below-waterline thru-hulls either.... So much for the advice from those sailors of old.... from an old music box website....

Given an opportunity to poll a decent-sized group of wood boat restorers, I think you will find it absolutely unanimous that none of them would use shellac as a final top coat for brightwork inside a boat or on deck.

Your boat, your money, your choice, so do what you want. You have that choice.

You know, every morning my kid wants to eat chocolate instead of a healthy breakfast. He stubbornly cites reasons he should not eat what he is given, despite my reasons for why he should. Just because he wants to eat chocolate doesn't mean he should... There is a better option...

 

[justsomeguy]

I can't make that leap with you... You are quoting shellac application advice for marine use from a vintage wooden music box site? Great source...

Heck, it might be a good waterproofer, but those sailors of old probably didn't consider the space between the layers of planks on their wooden sailing ships as interior brightwork... It might keep the underlying wood dry but it sure as heck probably looked like almost dried Elmer's glue... If you want waterproof as your link suggests, why not use 5200 as a finish????

Hah hah, I bet you won't use shellac to seal up your below-waterline thru-hulls either.... So much for the advice from those sailors of old.... from an old music box website....

Given an opportunity to poll a decent-sized group of wood boat restorers, I think you will find it absolutely unanimous that none of them would use shellac as a final top coat for brightwork inside a boat or on deck.

Your boat, your money, your choice, so do what you want. You have that choice.

You know, every morning my kid wants to eat chocolate instead of a healthy breakfast. He stubbornly cites reasons he should not eat what he is given, despite my reasons for why he should. Just because he wants to eat chocolate doesn't mean he should... There is a better option...

Chocolate? 5200?

The link suggests that shellac's qualities entail a certain amount of waterproofness.

Have you ever tried shellac on your boat's interior woodwork?

 

[philwsailz]

Have you ever tried it on your boat's interior woodwork?

*sigh*



No, and I bet you are going to tell me I cannot speak as a knowledgable refinisher becasuse I havent. Right? Thats okay....

I did my research and found the right product(s) for the application and applied them, (largely) per the manufacturers recommendations. I have used Sikkens Cetol, I have used Epiphanes, I have used Interlux Jet Speed and Interlux Schooner. Each have their place.

There are other brands that others will have as a favorite, for some personal reason of their own. Be contrarian if you want, heck we all are at some level. You rebel...

Just know that, (with the exception of your boat) shellac is not a marine finish. Never will be.

Have you ever used 3-in-1 oil for your car's crankcase? Why not? Its oil.......

Re: your edit. I can only guess as to its suitability as a waterproofer... I mean really, your source for your quote is from a music box collector... I would not go on that as a basis for me using it in my boat in the same application.

And to add, if your cited source actually is correct it might actually water-proof the wood, but from experience outside of a boat shellac looks pretty nasty when it gets wet...


Do what you want, its your boat! Have fune with it. Just know there is a snowball's chance in Hell you are going to bring any argument that sways me...

 

[justsomeguy]

Looks like the discussion has been touched on before, back in '07.

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=93153

Due to it's delicacy when alcohol is spilled, and the preponderance of alcohol amongst sailors, I wouldn't suggest shellac for horizontal surfaces.

Vertical only.

 

[Panta Rei]

I'm a paint/finishing engineer and find this thread very interesting. Some good points here, I'd like to add a few.
I'd have to say that Shellac would not be my first thought when refinishing the interior of a sailboat but it's really not that bad of a choice. Much like teak oils, it’s very easily repaired and can re coated yearly if desired. I'd have to say it's a preference not a misapplication.
Just keep in mind that technology has moved on a long way since Shellac was the finish of choice. I'm sure it likely contributed to the invention of the coaster.
I used shellac as a sealer when I refinished my boat. It’s a great odor stopper. I used it for any unfinished wood. (under cushions, mattresses ETC ) It gets rid of the OLD boat smell without replacing the wood. Sealed the lazarettes (SP?)after I took a power washer to them. I also sealed the engine compartment before I re-installed the sound dampening material.

As for the original question about the gloss finish on the interior of an O’day. I think it is great as long as it was done well. You could easily apply a coat or two of “Epiphanes rubbed effect” over it to give it my favorite interior finish. See attachedhttp://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=959 A true rubbed effect look without the work. I used 2 to 3 coats of gloss under the Rubbed Effect varnish and got a great look. 7 coats would be that much better and a great look for a Clorox bottle type boat. (no slam on O’day, same goes for Hunter Jeanneau, Catalina, Beneteau etc.)

Here is a photo of my O'day with the Rubbed effect varnish. You could easily change the look of the boat you are considering with one or two coats. And I agree, Any well finished Teak (regardless of product) looks many times better than wood (like) product used on new boats. The best way to save resources is to make the best out of what we have. A tip of the hat to all of you.

 

[RichH]

Consider too the usefulness of the amber grains as sealant: shellac can become so watertight that it was once applied between the layers of planks on wooden sailing ships.

Yup, raw shellac flakes were mixed with a bit of (tung?) vegetable oil and fine sawdust, then heated until the mix melted and then was simply poured into/onto what needed to be sealed. During WWII my father served as the master carpenter at a famed Phila. shipyard, and I still have some chunks of wooden (Lignum Vitae) prop shaft, etc. bearings that were removed from destroyers and subs that were in for refit, etc. .... and which were clearly put together with thickened and melted shellac as the sealant.
I also learned from him how to use melted shellac flakes to reset the bearings and escapement jewels in antique clocks. I just re-jeweled a family heirloom 125-year 'oldster' two weeks ago.

Shellac is good stuff; but, it has its limitations.

 

[Brian S]

If I recall, I once saw a PBS show on Venetian gondolas. The master craftsmen who build gondolas use a lacquer finish for all that black parts. Different than shellac.

There was talk of the "old technology" of shellac, and what old time sailors would use. According to Le Tonkinois, their varnish formulation is a really old recipe of just oil and resin. I have to say I loved applying it. FAR easier to maintain a wet edge than solvent thinned varnish like Pettit or Epiphanes I've used in the past. We'll see how well it lasts compared to the newer solvent-based varnish formulas.