has anyone else noticed that the West Marine (St. Paul) boat insurance has doubled in the last couple of years? I have a 1980 H33 - insured it for $25,000 three years ago, in the water in New Orleans (also have $300,000 liability coverage in the policy) - never had a claim. First year premium was $257, second year, $460, this year $550 - its not the money so much as the appearance of a "bait and switch" type of pricing strategy. Their comment if I want cheaper is to switch me to a more "basic boat" policy that declines in covered value for each year you own the boat - thus of little use to those of us with good old boats that we maintain and add equipment to. Is this typical, and is anyone else noticing this?
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Allen Schweitzer
My rates have been flat
I have a 1977 Catalina 30 & my rates haven't gone up at all. I'm in Boston with similar coverage to you. I think I'mm paying around $425 with National Marine Underwriters.
I have a 1977 Catalina 30 & my rates haven't gone up at all. I'm in Boston with similar coverage to you. I think I'mm paying around $425 with National Marine Underwriters.
Time to shop!
Jim: I think you should shop around and see what you find. I have been with BoatUS for a couple of years now and ours has been constant. Of course you must realize that we do not live in a Hurricane Alley.
Jim: I think you should shop around and see what you find. I have been with BoatUS for a couple of years now and ours has been constant. Of course you must realize that we do not live in a Hurricane Alley.
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Bob Todd
I have same coverage in RI...
...premium is only $297.00 I have not heard good things about the insurance program at West Marine. As a matter of fact, the rate they quoted me is twice what I'm paying right now. Just my two-cents (U.S.) Cheers, Bob Linkage to my boat, below.
...premium is only $297.00 I have not heard good things about the insurance program at West Marine. As a matter of fact, the rate they quoted me is twice what I'm paying right now. Just my two-cents (U.S.) Cheers, Bob Linkage to my boat, below.
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Rick
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Bob Todd
Thanks, Rick...
I certainly do love this boat. It's probably one of the cleanest 272LE's afloat. Lot's of TLC goes into it every year. Photos were by Billy Black (www.billyblack.com), pro marine photographer for a photo shoot for Cruising Direct Sails. As a matter of fact, one of the pictures is in their ad in Cruising World for Sep, Oct, and Nov issues. Got to keep a set of prints and scans and had a great day on the water. Cheers, Bob
I certainly do love this boat. It's probably one of the cleanest 272LE's afloat. Lot's of TLC goes into it every year. Photos were by Billy Black (www.billyblack.com), pro marine photographer for a photo shoot for Cruising Direct Sails. As a matter of fact, one of the pictures is in their ad in Cruising World for Sep, Oct, and Nov issues. Got to keep a set of prints and scans and had a great day on the water. Cheers, Bob
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Sean
US BOAT Rates
The rate on my '76 Cat 30 for the same coverage here in Puget Sound is $189 per year. Got the bill yesterday. Rates have gone up slightly. $600 deductible. Sean
The rate on my '76 Cat 30 for the same coverage here in Puget Sound is $189 per year. Got the bill yesterday. Rates have gone up slightly. $600 deductible. Sean
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Warren Renninger
Insurance Rates, Boats and Location
As an agent in SW Florida, you need to shop. The problem is that the good companies (including St Paul) rate on the boat and the location. Boats in the south are exposed year round and exposed to the risk of hurricanes. Thus we pay a lot more down here. Some companies also charge by the age of the boat when insured. Often the companies that are really knowledgable of boats and their uses will not write boats under a certain value (like $30,000) or under a certain length. Thus folks with older, less expensive boats have to pay more. Sorry, I pay $450 or so for a $13,000 1980 H27.
As an agent in SW Florida, you need to shop. The problem is that the good companies (including St Paul) rate on the boat and the location. Boats in the south are exposed year round and exposed to the risk of hurricanes. Thus we pay a lot more down here. Some companies also charge by the age of the boat when insured. Often the companies that are really knowledgable of boats and their uses will not write boats under a certain value (like $30,000) or under a certain length. Thus folks with older, less expensive boats have to pay more. Sorry, I pay $450 or so for a $13,000 1980 H27.
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Jim Logan
Thanks and Insurance Rate update
Thanks to everyone who responded - based on some of those responses, I checked with BoatUS and NMU - NMU=$538, BoatUS=$731+$14 membership, WM=$550 - but WM (St. Paul) has better medical coverage and better towing for that price- so based on that staying with WM. My orginal post was more about the doubling in in rates over a 2 year period with no claims than the absolute cost - guess WM orginal rates were "too low" but still, sounds like bait and switch to me - although guess those insurance companies have to pay for their bad investments in the stock market just like we do, except they can raise the rates. Of course, our current insurance commissioner in Louisiana being in Federal prison might have something to do with it!
Thanks to everyone who responded - based on some of those responses, I checked with BoatUS and NMU - NMU=$538, BoatUS=$731+$14 membership, WM=$550 - but WM (St. Paul) has better medical coverage and better towing for that price- so based on that staying with WM. My orginal post was more about the doubling in in rates over a 2 year period with no claims than the absolute cost - guess WM orginal rates were "too low" but still, sounds like bait and switch to me - although guess those insurance companies have to pay for their bad investments in the stock market just like we do, except they can raise the rates. Of course, our current insurance commissioner in Louisiana being in Federal prison might have something to do with it!
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Jim Logan
Thanks and Insurance Rate update
Thanks to everyone who responded - based on some of those responses, I checked with BoatUS and NMU - NMU=$538, BoatUS=$731+$14 membership, WM=$550 - but WM (St. Paul) has better medical coverage and better towing for that price- so based on that staying with WM. My orginal post was more about the doubling in in rates over a 2 year period with no claims than the absolute cost - guess WM orginal rates were "too low" but still, sounds like bait and switch to me - although guess those insurance companies have to pay for their bad investments in the stock market just like we do, except they can raise the rates. Of course, our current insurance commissioner in Louisiana being in Federal prison might have something to do with it!
Thanks to everyone who responded - based on some of those responses, I checked with BoatUS and NMU - NMU=$538, BoatUS=$731+$14 membership, WM=$550 - but WM (St. Paul) has better medical coverage and better towing for that price- so based on that staying with WM. My orginal post was more about the doubling in in rates over a 2 year period with no claims than the absolute cost - guess WM orginal rates were "too low" but still, sounds like bait and switch to me - although guess those insurance companies have to pay for their bad investments in the stock market just like we do, except they can raise the rates. Of course, our current insurance commissioner in Louisiana being in Federal prison might have something to do with it!
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Tom
I guess everything is not linear when it comes to
costs. I have a 1999 C36MKII which is valued at +$100k and my insurance is $631 for the season. I have my boat up north (Long Island Sound) which means that they only insure in the water sailing for about 75% of the year. and insure for a winter storage fee. But now when I recall my old insurance for a 1980 Watkins I paid about $400 a year for a boat worth only about $12k !?
costs. I have a 1999 C36MKII which is valued at +$100k and my insurance is $631 for the season. I have my boat up north (Long Island Sound) which means that they only insure in the water sailing for about 75% of the year. and insure for a winter storage fee. But now when I recall my old insurance for a 1980 Watkins I paid about $400 a year for a boat worth only about $12k !?
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Tom
I guess everything is not linear when it comes to
costs. I have a 1999 C36MKII which is valued at +$100k and my insurance is $631 for the season. I have my boat up north (Long Island Sound) which means that they only insure in the water sailing for about 75% of the year. and insure for a winter storage fee. But now when I recall my old insurance for a 1980 Watkins I paid about $400 a year for a boat worth only about $12k !?
costs. I have a 1999 C36MKII which is valued at +$100k and my insurance is $631 for the season. I have my boat up north (Long Island Sound) which means that they only insure in the water sailing for about 75% of the year. and insure for a winter storage fee. But now when I recall my old insurance for a 1980 Watkins I paid about $400 a year for a boat worth only about $12k !?
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Joe Mullee
It's Not bait & Switch
Jim, A few facts; Fact - The concept of insurance is to share the potential for loss among many people. If enough boat owners have losses in a particular area the rates need to be increased to cover those losses if they were higher than expected. Fact - Louisiana has had many, many storms over the years. St Paul wants to make a profit in every state and is entitled to do so. Fact - Older boats (like older homes) have more claims than newer boats and pay more for their insurance as a result. Systems corrrode, engines fail, and some people don't maintain their investments as well as others. This effect of age and sometimes neglect cause older boat owners to make more claims as a group. Fact - The reason the insurance rates are higher in Louisiana than Washington, CA, LI Sound, RI, etc is because there are more claims and the severity of those claims is higher. Fact - Insurance companies don't want you to leave them. By your own admission after you checked around you found St Paul to be competitive in price and coverage. They may even be giving you a discount because of the time you've been with them. I'm an insurance agent. We're not out to screw anyone. We don't "bait and switch". If you don't like what we have to offer there's often someone else who'd be happy to have your business. Happy Sailing, Joe Mullee State Farm Insurance
Jim, A few facts; Fact - The concept of insurance is to share the potential for loss among many people. If enough boat owners have losses in a particular area the rates need to be increased to cover those losses if they were higher than expected. Fact - Louisiana has had many, many storms over the years. St Paul wants to make a profit in every state and is entitled to do so. Fact - Older boats (like older homes) have more claims than newer boats and pay more for their insurance as a result. Systems corrrode, engines fail, and some people don't maintain their investments as well as others. This effect of age and sometimes neglect cause older boat owners to make more claims as a group. Fact - The reason the insurance rates are higher in Louisiana than Washington, CA, LI Sound, RI, etc is because there are more claims and the severity of those claims is higher. Fact - Insurance companies don't want you to leave them. By your own admission after you checked around you found St Paul to be competitive in price and coverage. They may even be giving you a discount because of the time you've been with them. I'm an insurance agent. We're not out to screw anyone. We don't "bait and switch". If you don't like what we have to offer there's often someone else who'd be happy to have your business. Happy Sailing, Joe Mullee State Farm Insurance
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Joe Mullee
It's Not bait & Switch
Jim, A few facts; Fact - The concept of insurance is to share the potential for loss among many people. If enough boat owners have losses in a particular area the rates need to be increased to cover those losses if they were higher than expected. Fact - Louisiana has had many, many storms over the years. St Paul wants to make a profit in every state and is entitled to do so. Fact - Older boats (like older homes) have more claims than newer boats and pay more for their insurance as a result. Systems corrrode, engines fail, and some people don't maintain their investments as well as others. This effect of age and sometimes neglect cause older boat owners to make more claims as a group. Fact - The reason the insurance rates are higher in Louisiana than Washington, CA, LI Sound, RI, etc is because there are more claims and the severity of those claims is higher. Fact - Insurance companies don't want you to leave them. By your own admission after you checked around you found St Paul to be competitive in price and coverage. They may even be giving you a discount because of the time you've been with them. I'm an insurance agent. We're not out to screw anyone. We don't "bait and switch". If you don't like what we have to offer there's often someone else who'd be happy to have your business. Happy Sailing, Joe Mullee State Farm Insurance
Jim, A few facts; Fact - The concept of insurance is to share the potential for loss among many people. If enough boat owners have losses in a particular area the rates need to be increased to cover those losses if they were higher than expected. Fact - Louisiana has had many, many storms over the years. St Paul wants to make a profit in every state and is entitled to do so. Fact - Older boats (like older homes) have more claims than newer boats and pay more for their insurance as a result. Systems corrrode, engines fail, and some people don't maintain their investments as well as others. This effect of age and sometimes neglect cause older boat owners to make more claims as a group. Fact - The reason the insurance rates are higher in Louisiana than Washington, CA, LI Sound, RI, etc is because there are more claims and the severity of those claims is higher. Fact - Insurance companies don't want you to leave them. By your own admission after you checked around you found St Paul to be competitive in price and coverage. They may even be giving you a discount because of the time you've been with them. I'm an insurance agent. We're not out to screw anyone. We don't "bait and switch". If you don't like what we have to offer there's often someone else who'd be happy to have your business. Happy Sailing, Joe Mullee State Farm Insurance
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Jim Logan
Re: Its Not Bait and Switch, Mr. Mullee
I pondered about writing this response, given the spirit of this board and being a long-term user - but I decided that the debate might stimulate some good responses(and let me know if I am off-course). Also, the response was addressed directly to me, so.... Mr. Mullee - while I accept that Louisiana is a higher risk state, you miss my points: 1. Risk in New Orleans, Louisiana is no greater than it was in the past - but the rate increase averaged 36% each year for the last two years - thus my point that the initial rate was artificially low to entice policy holders to switch companies. This also has happened to policy holders in states other than Louisiana. 2. Most insurance companies are not only about spreading risk, but also about profit for the stockholders - much of which comes from investing the excess monies beyond that required to cover risk into things such as equities - in which the rate of return has tanked over the last two years. I'm not knocking this, far from it (I'm also an investor), but it is a reality. If you read any of the popular business press such as WSJ, Fortune, or Business Week, you would have seen many articles in the past year or so about this problem causing rate increases that have nothing to do with risk adjustment. 3. It is a fact of life that the last three insurance commissioners in Louisiana have ended their elected terms in Federal Prison - not that I am proud of it, but they didn't get there by taking care of the challenging insurance needs of the people of Louisiana, but from taking bribes from large insurance interests(Not State Farm, I am happy to say, since they are Louisiana's largest underwriter). If anyone wants to comment on this, please feel free, otherwise, I would like to go back to debating the relative merits of home-built versus purchased holding tanks and determining the phone number of Thrifty Mariner. Joe, if you want to debate this off-line, contact me at Idratherbesailing@cox.net thanks for reading - Jim Logan
I pondered about writing this response, given the spirit of this board and being a long-term user - but I decided that the debate might stimulate some good responses(and let me know if I am off-course). Also, the response was addressed directly to me, so.... Mr. Mullee - while I accept that Louisiana is a higher risk state, you miss my points: 1. Risk in New Orleans, Louisiana is no greater than it was in the past - but the rate increase averaged 36% each year for the last two years - thus my point that the initial rate was artificially low to entice policy holders to switch companies. This also has happened to policy holders in states other than Louisiana. 2. Most insurance companies are not only about spreading risk, but also about profit for the stockholders - much of which comes from investing the excess monies beyond that required to cover risk into things such as equities - in which the rate of return has tanked over the last two years. I'm not knocking this, far from it (I'm also an investor), but it is a reality. If you read any of the popular business press such as WSJ, Fortune, or Business Week, you would have seen many articles in the past year or so about this problem causing rate increases that have nothing to do with risk adjustment. 3. It is a fact of life that the last three insurance commissioners in Louisiana have ended their elected terms in Federal Prison - not that I am proud of it, but they didn't get there by taking care of the challenging insurance needs of the people of Louisiana, but from taking bribes from large insurance interests(Not State Farm, I am happy to say, since they are Louisiana's largest underwriter). If anyone wants to comment on this, please feel free, otherwise, I would like to go back to debating the relative merits of home-built versus purchased holding tanks and determining the phone number of Thrifty Mariner. Joe, if you want to debate this off-line, contact me at Idratherbesailing@cox.net thanks for reading - Jim Logan
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Jim Logan
Re: Its Not Bait and Switch, Mr. Mullee
I pondered about writing this response, given the spirit of this board and being a long-term user - but I decided that the debate might stimulate some good responses(and let me know if I am off-course). Also, the response was addressed directly to me, so.... Mr. Mullee - while I accept that Louisiana is a higher risk state, you miss my points: 1. Risk in New Orleans, Louisiana is no greater than it was in the past - but the rate increase averaged 36% each year for the last two years - thus my point that the initial rate was artificially low to entice policy holders to switch companies. This also has happened to policy holders in states other than Louisiana. 2. Most insurance companies are not only about spreading risk, but also about profit for the stockholders - much of which comes from investing the excess monies beyond that required to cover risk into things such as equities - in which the rate of return has tanked over the last two years. I'm not knocking this, far from it (I'm also an investor), but it is a reality. If you read any of the popular business press such as WSJ, Fortune, or Business Week, you would have seen many articles in the past year or so about this problem causing rate increases that have nothing to do with risk adjustment. 3. It is a fact of life that the last three insurance commissioners in Louisiana have ended their elected terms in Federal Prison - not that I am proud of it, but they didn't get there by taking care of the challenging insurance needs of the people of Louisiana, but from taking bribes from large insurance interests(Not State Farm, I am happy to say, since they are Louisiana's largest underwriter). If anyone wants to comment on this, please feel free, otherwise, I would like to go back to debating the relative merits of home-built versus purchased holding tanks and determining the phone number of Thrifty Mariner. Joe, if you want to debate this off-line, contact me at Idratherbesailing@cox.net thanks for reading - Jim Logan
I pondered about writing this response, given the spirit of this board and being a long-term user - but I decided that the debate might stimulate some good responses(and let me know if I am off-course). Also, the response was addressed directly to me, so.... Mr. Mullee - while I accept that Louisiana is a higher risk state, you miss my points: 1. Risk in New Orleans, Louisiana is no greater than it was in the past - but the rate increase averaged 36% each year for the last two years - thus my point that the initial rate was artificially low to entice policy holders to switch companies. This also has happened to policy holders in states other than Louisiana. 2. Most insurance companies are not only about spreading risk, but also about profit for the stockholders - much of which comes from investing the excess monies beyond that required to cover risk into things such as equities - in which the rate of return has tanked over the last two years. I'm not knocking this, far from it (I'm also an investor), but it is a reality. If you read any of the popular business press such as WSJ, Fortune, or Business Week, you would have seen many articles in the past year or so about this problem causing rate increases that have nothing to do with risk adjustment. 3. It is a fact of life that the last three insurance commissioners in Louisiana have ended their elected terms in Federal Prison - not that I am proud of it, but they didn't get there by taking care of the challenging insurance needs of the people of Louisiana, but from taking bribes from large insurance interests(Not State Farm, I am happy to say, since they are Louisiana's largest underwriter). If anyone wants to comment on this, please feel free, otherwise, I would like to go back to debating the relative merits of home-built versus purchased holding tanks and determining the phone number of Thrifty Mariner. Joe, if you want to debate this off-line, contact me at Idratherbesailing@cox.net thanks for reading - Jim Logan
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Gordon McCallum
Correct: everything is NOT linear
Your premium is not linear with regards to coverage. With BoatUS, for example, you have no forced layup period. If there's a nice day in January, take advantage of it! But when you're boat is on land, there are still perils. The building where it's stored could fall on the boat (it's happened before), someone could steal your boat from your yard, a tree could fall on it, a neighbor's child could come over, play on the boat and fall off, any number of things can happen that give you reason to keep the boat insured 12 months out of the year. But about the linear question. A boat worth $5000 is worth half of a $10,000 boat. But to an insurance company, both amounts are minor risks in the long run, all else being equal. What the insurance company is risking is that nice fat liability coverage. $300,000 of liability coverage is the same exposure on either boat, whether it's an 18' Boston Whaler or a 35' Hunter. Granted, how a boat is used will affect the true risk, and that's why a good underwriter will ask you more in depth questions before binding (this helps keep bad risks out, which keeps everyone's premiums down) So a $5000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage would not cost half as much as a $10,000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage. That liability accounts for a sizable chunk of your premium. I hope that helped to clear this up a bit. ----- Just so people don't think I'm trying to hide anything, I'm a licensed insurance underwriter for BoatUS.
Your premium is not linear with regards to coverage. With BoatUS, for example, you have no forced layup period. If there's a nice day in January, take advantage of it! But when you're boat is on land, there are still perils. The building where it's stored could fall on the boat (it's happened before), someone could steal your boat from your yard, a tree could fall on it, a neighbor's child could come over, play on the boat and fall off, any number of things can happen that give you reason to keep the boat insured 12 months out of the year. But about the linear question. A boat worth $5000 is worth half of a $10,000 boat. But to an insurance company, both amounts are minor risks in the long run, all else being equal. What the insurance company is risking is that nice fat liability coverage. $300,000 of liability coverage is the same exposure on either boat, whether it's an 18' Boston Whaler or a 35' Hunter. Granted, how a boat is used will affect the true risk, and that's why a good underwriter will ask you more in depth questions before binding (this helps keep bad risks out, which keeps everyone's premiums down) So a $5000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage would not cost half as much as a $10,000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage. That liability accounts for a sizable chunk of your premium. I hope that helped to clear this up a bit. ----- Just so people don't think I'm trying to hide anything, I'm a licensed insurance underwriter for BoatUS.
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Gordon McCallum
Correct: everything is NOT linear
Your premium is not linear with regards to coverage. With BoatUS, for example, you have no forced layup period. If there's a nice day in January, take advantage of it! But when you're boat is on land, there are still perils. The building where it's stored could fall on the boat (it's happened before), someone could steal your boat from your yard, a tree could fall on it, a neighbor's child could come over, play on the boat and fall off, any number of things can happen that give you reason to keep the boat insured 12 months out of the year. But about the linear question. A boat worth $5000 is worth half of a $10,000 boat. But to an insurance company, both amounts are minor risks in the long run, all else being equal. What the insurance company is risking is that nice fat liability coverage. $300,000 of liability coverage is the same exposure on either boat, whether it's an 18' Boston Whaler or a 35' Hunter. Granted, how a boat is used will affect the true risk, and that's why a good underwriter will ask you more in depth questions before binding (this helps keep bad risks out, which keeps everyone's premiums down) So a $5000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage would not cost half as much as a $10,000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage. That liability accounts for a sizable chunk of your premium. I hope that helped to clear this up a bit. ----- Just so people don't think I'm trying to hide anything, I'm a licensed insurance underwriter for BoatUS.
Your premium is not linear with regards to coverage. With BoatUS, for example, you have no forced layup period. If there's a nice day in January, take advantage of it! But when you're boat is on land, there are still perils. The building where it's stored could fall on the boat (it's happened before), someone could steal your boat from your yard, a tree could fall on it, a neighbor's child could come over, play on the boat and fall off, any number of things can happen that give you reason to keep the boat insured 12 months out of the year. But about the linear question. A boat worth $5000 is worth half of a $10,000 boat. But to an insurance company, both amounts are minor risks in the long run, all else being equal. What the insurance company is risking is that nice fat liability coverage. $300,000 of liability coverage is the same exposure on either boat, whether it's an 18' Boston Whaler or a 35' Hunter. Granted, how a boat is used will affect the true risk, and that's why a good underwriter will ask you more in depth questions before binding (this helps keep bad risks out, which keeps everyone's premiums down) So a $5000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage would not cost half as much as a $10,000 boat with $300,000 of liability coverage. That liability accounts for a sizable chunk of your premium. I hope that helped to clear this up a bit. ----- Just so people don't think I'm trying to hide anything, I'm a licensed insurance underwriter for BoatUS.
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