Installing New Seacock's (A New Photo Based How To Article)

[MKirk51]

Broken Handle

Maine SailThanks a lot for adding one more task to my pre-launch list!Seriously, a very excellent tutorial on something that really had me puzzled. I too had the handle break off the Marelon valve on my galley sink. Luckily there was no leakage at all, and it was towards the end of the season, so it was left for haul-out.This is my very first boat so I was (am) no expert, and figured I’d just re-do it exactly as I found it. It definitely didn’t seem right when I tried to screw the new one on, and I started scratching my head. I talked to a plumber friend and we both agreed I was dealing with NPT vs NPS, and we both thought that was pretty weird. As the one for the head intake was Marelon also, and it looked like an identical setup, I figured that must be the way to go.Unfortunately I didn’t know about this site, and the few fellow boaters I did know were clueless also, so I just used lots of teflon tape and went for it. No leaks at all, but the handle was in the back now. Not really hard to get to but I didn't like it, and I didn’t want to back it off to a better position and risk losing the seal. The backward handle does worry me though, as I have to put all the force on the end of the handle, with no support on the pivot point, and I don’t like all that pressure placed on the thru-hull.Some questions now. At the time I had no reason to think it wasn’t built that way, and I’m unable to contact the PO, but now I wonder. Does anyone know if they even made those type of valves back in ’81? Next, it seems like you're using the kitty hair to fill in the gap between the flat backing plate and the curved hull. Correct? And lastly, is it possible to drill the flange holes from the outside? I know it would be hard to mark an accurate location for the holes, but my only other option is to pull the sink and use a 3 foot bit. And that still might not get me a workable angle. It's not directly above the sink, and very close to a bulkhead.As the saying goes, live and learn. (Or, better still, time is the best teacher but it kills all its pupils).Thanks again Maine Sail. Keep up the excellent work.

 

[MKirk51]

Broken Handle

Maine SailThanks a lot for adding one more task to my pre-launch list!Seriously, a very excellent tutorial on something that really had me puzzled. I too had the handle break off the Marelon valve on my galley sink. Luckily there was no leakage at all, and it was towards the end of the season, so it was left for haul-out.This is my very first boat so I was (am) no expert, and figured I’d just re-do it exactly as I found it. It definitely didn’t seem right when I tried to screw the new one on, and I started scratching my head. I talked to a plumber friend and we both agreed I was dealing with NPT vs NPS, and we both thought that was pretty weird. As the one for the head intake was Marelon also, and it looked like an identical setup, I figured that must be the way to go.Unfortunately I didn’t know about this site, and the few fellow boaters I did know were clueless also, so I just used lots of teflon tape and went for it. No leaks at all, but the handle was in the back now. Not really hard to get to but I didn't like it, and I didn’t want to back it off to a better position and risk losing the seal. The backward handle does worry me though, as I have to put all the force on the end of the handle, with no support on the pivot point, and I don’t like all that pressure placed on the thru-hull.Some questions now. At the time I had no reason to think it wasn’t built that way, and I’m unable to contact the PO, but now I wonder. Does anyone know if they even made those type of valves back in ’81? Next, it seems like you're using the kitty hair to fill in the gap between the flat backing plate and the curved hull. Correct? And lastly, is it possible to drill the flange holes from the outside? I know it would be hard to mark an accurate location for the holes, but my only other option is to pull the sink and use a 3 foot bit. And that still might not get me a workable angle. It's not directly above the sink, and very close to a bulkhead.As the saying goes, live and learn. (Or, better still, time is the best teacher but it kills all its pupils).Thanks again Maine Sail. Keep up the excellent work.

 

[Maine Sail]

I don't advise drilling..

I don't advise drilling from the outside of the hull. These holes, the ones for the through bolts, need to be as close to 100% 90 degrees to the surface of the backing plate as you can get or you may wind up having to rip everything out. With over and inch of solid glas there is really no wiggle rom for a bolt head thats off by a 1/16 of an inch by the time it gets to the inside of the hull. This is why I advise drilling one hole at a time then sticking the bolt in it before you drill the next..Use a drill guide and a right angle drill if you have to but do make sure they are straight. The big hole, for the through hull, can be drilled from the outside though because the pilot hole is already there as a guide.The kitty hair is used to fill the gap and to keep the backing plate in the same plane as the out side of the hull. It works well. Though not as tough as epoxy it's more than strong enough for this application. By roughing both surface, in a sense adding peaks and valleys, with a brass brush on a drill, it really adheres very, very well creating much more surface area for the stranded filler to bite into..Hope this helps and maybe I'll try and clarify on the site a little more!

 

[Maine Sail]

I don't advise drilling..

I don't advise drilling from the outside of the hull. These holes, the ones for the through bolts, need to be as close to 100% 90 degrees to the surface of the backing plate as you can get or you may wind up having to rip everything out. With over and inch of solid glas there is really no wiggle rom for a bolt head thats off by a 1/16 of an inch by the time it gets to the inside of the hull. This is why I advise drilling one hole at a time then sticking the bolt in it before you drill the next..Use a drill guide and a right angle drill if you have to but do make sure they are straight. The big hole, for the through hull, can be drilled from the outside though because the pilot hole is already there as a guide.The kitty hair is used to fill the gap and to keep the backing plate in the same plane as the out side of the hull. It works well. Though not as tough as epoxy it's more than strong enough for this application. By roughing both surface, in a sense adding peaks and valleys, with a brass brush on a drill, it really adheres very, very well creating much more surface area for the stranded filler to bite into..Hope this helps and maybe I'll try and clarify on the site a little more!

 

[Ross]

I don't think that the bolt holes could be correctly located

if someone attempted to drill them from the outside. I always drill from the fixture side. Sometimes I have to buy an extra length bit to be sure my drill chuck clears the fixture.

 

[Ross]

I don't think that the bolt holes could be correctly located

if someone attempted to drill them from the outside. I always drill from the fixture side. Sometimes I have to buy an extra length bit to be sure my drill chuck clears the fixture.

 

[CalebD]

Main Sail, I noticed all the needling you got on CSBB

the 'Cranky Sailors Bulletin Board' and boy are there some 3rd grade 'My way or the Highway' anal circumnavigating sailors over there. Little gripes about round vs. square backing plates, the varying hardness of different woods (Jacka scale? - I am too lazy to look it up right now), a few defenders of Marelon valves and a few who were served their Cheerios with urine prior to posting. The sad part of all of this is that many of them are actually grown men! Tree men dose egos and boys with bigger toys!The best part of this is that you (seemingly) calmly responded to all your detractors (nit-pickers) and owned up to any faults they might have actually found (which were few). You may be a bit anal which is a personality trait that is helpful to carefully document the tasks you are trying to enumerate. Sure I like the Don Casey articles on BuoyUS or whatever but there are no pictures to accompany the verbiage as you have so thoughtfully provided us with (also for free). I think you should do another page (or 2) on your grand buff/waxing post that you did here a while back. After you have several of these projects documented to your satisfaction MotorBoatUS might take notice and actually pay for them to augment or even replace the Don Casey library.That should take you a while. Anyway thanks for your efforts from the more common folks (< 42') over here at the slightly better tempered SBO forum.Hang in there Maine, RodC err, whoever you really are.The internet can get a bit weird so I can't blame you for not wanting to be known as Billy Joe from Daytona or such.Keep up the good work.

 

[CalebD]

Main Sail, I noticed all the needling you got on CSBB

the 'Cranky Sailors Bulletin Board' and boy are there some 3rd grade 'My way or the Highway' anal circumnavigating sailors over there. Little gripes about round vs. square backing plates, the varying hardness of different woods (Jacka scale? - I am too lazy to look it up right now), a few defenders of Marelon valves and a few who were served their Cheerios with urine prior to posting. The sad part of all of this is that many of them are actually grown men! Tree men dose egos and boys with bigger toys!The best part of this is that you (seemingly) calmly responded to all your detractors (nit-pickers) and owned up to any faults they might have actually found (which were few). You may be a bit anal which is a personality trait that is helpful to carefully document the tasks you are trying to enumerate. Sure I like the Don Casey articles on BuoyUS or whatever but there are no pictures to accompany the verbiage as you have so thoughtfully provided us with (also for free). I think you should do another page (or 2) on your grand buff/waxing post that you did here a while back. After you have several of these projects documented to your satisfaction MotorBoatUS might take notice and actually pay for them to augment or even replace the Don Casey library.That should take you a while. Anyway thanks for your efforts from the more common folks (< 42') over here at the slightly better tempered SBO forum.Hang in there Maine, RodC err, whoever you really are.The internet can get a bit weird so I can't blame you for not wanting to be known as Billy Joe from Daytona or such.Keep up the good work.

 

[Stillraining]

Woops!

I just relized I placed this in the wrong Forum earlier today.So here it is again.>>Hello Scott, we are working on Titanium Ball Valves/seacocks. Currently we're working to get the design simplified to keep the price as low as possible. Check our Website www.titanmarine.biz as they will appear as soon as available. There will be a slight galvanic issue with the bronze/titanium joining but by using the bonding wire technique with the bronze valve, the galvanic corrosion of the valve will be minimumized. The titanium will be unaffected, but still keep an eye on the valve and your zincs as always. Best regards and Happy New Year, Hugh Richadrs<<

 

[Stillraining]

Woops!

I just relized I placed this in the wrong Forum earlier today.So here it is again.>>Hello Scott, we are working on Titanium Ball Valves/seacocks. Currently we're working to get the design simplified to keep the price as low as possible. Check our Website www.titanmarine.biz as they will appear as soon as available. There will be a slight galvanic issue with the bronze/titanium joining but by using the bonding wire technique with the bronze valve, the galvanic corrosion of the valve will be minimumized. The titanium will be unaffected, but still keep an eye on the valve and your zincs as always. Best regards and Happy New Year, Hugh Richadrs<<

 

[Maine Sail]

If you read the first..

Zach,If you read the first entry on my web site titled "A Bad Idea" http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls your set up is the type I was referring to! Unfortunately I did not happen to have a photo of an actual installation, like yours, so made one to simulate it with that Marelon valve and the through hull. You have what looks to be a gate valve, not even a ball valve, but I can't be 100% sure with that photo's resolution. The valve is screwed directly to the through hull or "mushroom head" as some call it. We can only hope you don't have mis-matched threads eg: NPT/NPS.Your set up is unfortunately not a real or proper seacock with a through bolted flange. You're not alone however as many production builders do this. It saves labor time, and money, and keeps the cost of boats down. It's part of the little details and reasons why a 36 foot Morris cost 600K and a 36 foot Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau cost under $175k. The problem is that without the through bolted flange you run risk of breaking the through hull off. Seacocks are designed for safety & strength and the cross section or thickness of the bronze on a typical through hull pales in comparison to that of a proper seacock. Your set up, a valve directly bolted to the through hull, can also become a potential leak point because there is nothing to hold or keep the through hull straight, and in place, other than the marine sealant and a small locking nut. Opening and closing of the valve, over time, can cause twist and an eventual leak.I hope I have answered your question?

 

[Maine Sail]

If you read the first..

Zach,If you read the first entry on my web site titled "A Bad Idea" http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls your set up is the type I was referring to! Unfortunately I did not happen to have a photo of an actual installation, like yours, so made one to simulate it with that Marelon valve and the through hull. You have what looks to be a gate valve, not even a ball valve, but I can't be 100% sure with that photo's resolution. The valve is screwed directly to the through hull or "mushroom head" as some call it. We can only hope you don't have mis-matched threads eg: NPT/NPS.Your set up is unfortunately not a real or proper seacock with a through bolted flange. You're not alone however as many production builders do this. It saves labor time, and money, and keeps the cost of boats down. It's part of the little details and reasons why a 36 foot Morris cost 600K and a 36 foot Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau cost under $175k. The problem is that without the through bolted flange you run risk of breaking the through hull off. Seacocks are designed for safety & strength and the cross section or thickness of the bronze on a typical through hull pales in comparison to that of a proper seacock. Your set up, a valve directly bolted to the through hull, can also become a potential leak point because there is nothing to hold or keep the through hull straight, and in place, other than the marine sealant and a small locking nut. Opening and closing of the valve, over time, can cause twist and an eventual leak.I hope I have answered your question?

 

[Salish Sea Cruiser]

Drilling from outside of hull

First off, let me stae up front, I have never replaced a thru-hull before, but I do have many years experience as a woodworker and general tinkerer. My first inclination when reading about not being able to access it for drilling from the inside was to agree with Ross and Mainsail that you would never be able to align the holes if you drilled them from the outside. But after thinking about my current boat, which has proper seacocks, and my previous boat which did not, I realized that I would be lucky to get to half of the thru-hulls from the inside with a drill, let alone with a drill guide on it. If it were me, before I tore up my interior, I would build a drilling jig and drill them from the outside. I would 1 1/2 or 2" oak or other very hardwood for the jig and drill the guide holes in the exact pattern on drill press, they have to be precise. Also drill a center hole the exact size as the hole for your thru-hull. I would then run a thru-hull through the oak jig and through the hull and put a nut on it on the inside and lock it down. I would now have a very secure and accurate drill guide. Now drill the holes.I hope this makes at least a little sense. Mainsail, I din't want to jump in on your thread, but I just couldn't resist. It's these kinds of projects that make boat owning so much fun.John

 

[Salish Sea Cruiser]

Drilling from outside of hull

First off, let me stae up front, I have never replaced a thru-hull before, but I do have many years experience as a woodworker and general tinkerer. My first inclination when reading about not being able to access it for drilling from the inside was to agree with Ross and Mainsail that you would never be able to align the holes if you drilled them from the outside. But after thinking about my current boat, which has proper seacocks, and my previous boat which did not, I realized that I would be lucky to get to half of the thru-hulls from the inside with a drill, let alone with a drill guide on it. If it were me, before I tore up my interior, I would build a drilling jig and drill them from the outside. I would 1 1/2 or 2" oak or other very hardwood for the jig and drill the guide holes in the exact pattern on drill press, they have to be precise. Also drill a center hole the exact size as the hole for your thru-hull. I would then run a thru-hull through the oak jig and through the hull and put a nut on it on the inside and lock it down. I would now have a very secure and accurate drill guide. Now drill the holes.I hope this makes at least a little sense. Mainsail, I din't want to jump in on your thread, but I just couldn't resist. It's these kinds of projects that make boat owning so much fun.John

 

[Ross]

That might work but you are betting that you can drill a

1/4 inch hole through 1 inch of fiberglass reinforced plastic and hit a 1/4 inch hole dead center on the other side. Then you are betting that you can do it three times. I have earned my living as a machinist and I know that that is a feat that is hard to accomplish in the shop but on a curved hull I think that it would be nearly impossible. If you are well experienced then you can drill perpendicular closely enough by eye for the purposes discribed here.

 

[Ross]

That might work but you are betting that you can drill a

1/4 inch hole through 1 inch of fiberglass reinforced plastic and hit a 1/4 inch hole dead center on the other side. Then you are betting that you can do it three times. I have earned my living as a machinist and I know that that is a feat that is hard to accomplish in the shop but on a curved hull I think that it would be nearly impossible. If you are well experienced then you can drill perpendicular closely enough by eye for the purposes discribed here.

 

[Salish Sea Cruiser]

The amount of curvature where the thru-hull goes

could definitely cause me some headaches, particularly if it was concave at that point. And drills do like to wander in fiberglass. And IF I could get the drill in there, I would feel comfortable drilling it from the inside by eye. I think I would be seriously looking at alternatives before I tore my cabinet or floor out to get to it though. I think the original premise was that he couldn't get to it from the inside.

 

[Salish Sea Cruiser]

The amount of curvature where the thru-hull goes

could definitely cause me some headaches, particularly if it was concave at that point. And drills do like to wander in fiberglass. And IF I could get the drill in there, I would feel comfortable drilling it from the inside by eye. I think I would be seriously looking at alternatives before I tore my cabinet or floor out to get to it though. I think the original premise was that he couldn't get to it from the inside.

 

[MKirk51]

Thanks guys

Appreciate the responses about outside drilling. I live an hour from the boat so I haven't had a chance to eyeball it yet, but my impression is that it's gonna be iffy getting to it. I've borrowed a right-angle drill before so I don't know why that didn't occur to me. Thanks again MaineSail. Hopefully that will do the trick.

 

[MKirk51]

Thanks guys

Appreciate the responses about outside drilling. I live an hour from the boat so I haven't had a chance to eyeball it yet, but my impression is that it's gonna be iffy getting to it. I've borrowed a right-angle drill before so I don't know why that didn't occur to me. Thanks again MaineSail. Hopefully that will do the trick.