I know this is a simple job, but I've never done it before, so I want to be sure I do it right. I need to install a cleat for my topping lift on the mast. I have the following questions: 1. How do I select the size of the cleat? I held a 6.5" cleat up and wrapped the topping lift line around it this weekend, and that seems about the right size. 2. Will a nylon or marelon cleat be sufficient? 3. What kind of fasteners should I use? The cleat package says "use 1/4" fasteners". 4. How do I ensure that I don't hit anything critical like wiring inside the mast when I drill? 5. How do I adequately seal the holes so I don't get water inside the mast? 6. How do I determine the best mast location for the cleat? I don't want it positioned so it will snag anything. Thanks in advance for the help.
installing a cleat for topping lift on mast
- Thread starter Sherry
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Why Mast Cleat
Many of you questions imply possible problems with installing a cleat on the mast. Have you considered adjusting the topping lift from the boom? You could tie a 5/16" line to the aft end of the mast-head crane and run down and tied witha tight bowline to a 3/4" single block about six inches above the boom in its stored position. Run another 5/16" line from the end of the boom , up and thru the block on the topping lift, then down to a 1" cheek block six inches forward of the end of the boom and centered on the side of the boom, then run forward to a four inch cleat mounted on the centerline /same side of the boom about four feet aft of the mast. The fasteners for the cheek block would be four 1/8" pop-rivets. The four inch cleat could be fastened with two 3/16" self tapping screws about 5/16" longer than the depth of the cleat. The pop rivets wouldn't interfere with other lines on the inside of the boom; however, you might install the screws for the cleat after filing off and rounding the points.
Many of you questions imply possible problems with installing a cleat on the mast. Have you considered adjusting the topping lift from the boom? You could tie a 5/16" line to the aft end of the mast-head crane and run down and tied witha tight bowline to a 3/4" single block about six inches above the boom in its stored position. Run another 5/16" line from the end of the boom , up and thru the block on the topping lift, then down to a 1" cheek block six inches forward of the end of the boom and centered on the side of the boom, then run forward to a four inch cleat mounted on the centerline /same side of the boom about four feet aft of the mast. The fasteners for the cheek block would be four 1/8" pop-rivets. The four inch cleat could be fastened with two 3/16" self tapping screws about 5/16" longer than the depth of the cleat. The pop rivets wouldn't interfere with other lines on the inside of the boom; however, you might install the screws for the cleat after filing off and rounding the points.
Use stainless steel fasteners
Drill only through the wall of the mast. Drill through the center of a block of wood so the your drill only sticks through about 3/8 inch. Silicone caulk will seal the back of the cleat and the holes. But a 1/4-20 tap and tap handle and thread the holes. You are going to have to find the best location by yourself. If you have never done such as this you should drill, tap and install the cleat on one fastener first set the angle that you want and mark the second hole with the drill. Then take the cleat away and drill the hole for the second fastener. IMPORTANT: the proper size drill for a 1/4-20 tap is either a # 7 number size of 7/32 fractional size. DON'T use 1/4". That is clearance size. Don't worry too much about contact with stuff in the mast. Hang a handful of wire and rope up and try to damage it with a drill, it just moves out of the way.
Drill only through the wall of the mast. Drill through the center of a block of wood so the your drill only sticks through about 3/8 inch. Silicone caulk will seal the back of the cleat and the holes. But a 1/4-20 tap and tap handle and thread the holes. You are going to have to find the best location by yourself. If you have never done such as this you should drill, tap and install the cleat on one fastener first set the angle that you want and mark the second hole with the drill. Then take the cleat away and drill the hole for the second fastener. IMPORTANT: the proper size drill for a 1/4-20 tap is either a # 7 number size of 7/32 fractional size. DON'T use 1/4". That is clearance size. Don't worry too much about contact with stuff in the mast. Hang a handful of wire and rope up and try to damage it with a drill, it just moves out of the way.
Forget the topping lift - use a Boom-Kicker!
Or a rigid vang. Topping lifts are a thing of the past.
Or a rigid vang. Topping lifts are a thing of the past.
Boom Kicker can be problematic
I personally don't like the kicker idea for a larger boat. The idea of all the leverage created by the entire length of a boom places on a point load that a kicker creates just doesn't seem right to me. On small boats its fine, but not for me on my 25. Boom kickers are a fad anyway. No offense jimq26. LOL I do agree with all the other advice about drilling into the mast. I just installed a topping lift onto my Nordica 16. Same basic plan just smaller scale.
I personally don't like the kicker idea for a larger boat. The idea of all the leverage created by the entire length of a boom places on a point load that a kicker creates just doesn't seem right to me. On small boats its fine, but not for me on my 25. Boom kickers are a fad anyway. No offense jimq26. LOL I do agree with all the other advice about drilling into the mast. I just installed a topping lift onto my Nordica 16. Same basic plan just smaller scale.
Works for the rest of the world!!
and yet you say " Boom Kickers can be problematic". I guess you don't keep up with the trends on the one design fleets eh? How 'bout the 26'to 35' boats that swear by them? Man - are you way behind the times - but then again - that's your right eh?
and yet you say " Boom Kickers can be problematic". I guess you don't keep up with the trends on the one design fleets eh? How 'bout the 26'to 35' boats that swear by them? Man - are you way behind the times - but then again - that's your right eh?
Jim....be real
can you go aloft with a boom kicker? Can you use the boom kicker to raise the storm sail or any other sail? an adjustable topping lift has many many MANY uses that the boom kicker just can't do. Shit happens at sea and having another line aloft will save your life one day...that is if you go beyond....
can you go aloft with a boom kicker? Can you use the boom kicker to raise the storm sail or any other sail? an adjustable topping lift has many many MANY uses that the boom kicker just can't do. Shit happens at sea and having another line aloft will save your life one day...that is if you go beyond....
Topping lift ... other uses ...
Franklin ... Are you going aloft on a 1/4 - 5/16 line? One that has been out in the elements for who knows how long? One that has been chafing on and being chafed by the sail for all that time? (I'm not) Are you going to use a line lighter than your main halyard to hoist a storm sail? The topping lift makes a good tag line for reeving a proper line for going aloft or hoisting a storm sail, but the rest of the time it is just added windage and chafe on the sail. A boomkicker does all the jobs of a topping lift with no chafe. For a spare halyard aft, rig an external halyard in the port sheeves. The same line has multiple uses. A spare jib halyard, a spare main halyard or storm sail halyard, a topping lift. When not used as a halyard or topping lift it stows at the mast and is ready for any emergency use. S. Sauer ... pop rivets? Self tapping screws? On a 30 footer? To each his own ... but prepare to get your wallet out if you ever have to pay a rigger to work on the boom. I've never seen a self tapping screw (sheet metal screw) in 316 stainless. I have seen $100's in damage to fittings and spars caused by corrosion and sheet metal screws used on boats. The people that mount things on boats for a living use machine screws and barrier coatings so the fasteners don't mate with the spar. I've never seen a fitting installed properly with sheet metal screws. To answer the original poster's questions: 1. How do I select the size of the cleat? I held a 6.5" cleat up and wrapped the topping lift line around it this weekend, and that seems about the right size. The cleat needs only to be big enough to hold two round turns of the line that belays to it. 2. Will a nylon or marelon cleat be sufficient? Yes 3. What kind of fasteners should I use? The cleat package says "use 1/4" fasteners". 1/4-20 machine screws, probably flat head (assuming countersunk holes in the cleat). My feeling is that for a 1/4" or 5/16" line a cleat should only need 10-24 fasteners. If the line is 3/8" or larger, a cleat that needs 1/4-20 fasteners sounds about right. 4. How do I ensure that I don't hit anything critical like wiring inside the mast when I drill? The wiring in your mast should be in a conduit. Conduits usually run either right next to the sail track on the aft face of the mast or on one of the front "corners". It is highly unlikely that the wiring will be close to an area where you would want to put a cleat. 5. How do I adequately seal the holes so I don't get water inside the mast? If your mast has internal halyards there are already many places for water to get inside the mast. Don't worry about sealing the holes. Do worry about using a barrier to prevent corrosion between the the stainless steel screws and the mast. Tef-Gel or Lanacote on the threads will do the job nicely. 6. How do I determine the best mast location for the cleat? I don't want it positioned so it will snag anything. The first rule of rigging is "Fair Leads". There is only one line that the cleat can lie on. It should be at a 10deg angle to the line that keeps the topping lift centred in the mast exit. Where along that line you place the cleat is the only question. My personal preference for topping lift cleats is low on the mast. Most modern boats don't have winches on the mast and the load on a topping lift is high. If the cleat is low, you can take a turn and haul up on the line while you sweat the boom up by pulling the line away from the mast then surging the line on the cleat to hold the gain. If there is a winch on the mast, you probably need it for other things beside the topping lift. You might want to consider using rope clutches for the topping lift and the other lines the winch serves. The real qestion is ... Did the boat come with a rope topping lift when it was new in 1992? If it did, how was the topping lift rigged? Was it lead aft? where did it cleat before? What happened to the original cleat?
Franklin ... Are you going aloft on a 1/4 - 5/16 line? One that has been out in the elements for who knows how long? One that has been chafing on and being chafed by the sail for all that time? (I'm not) Are you going to use a line lighter than your main halyard to hoist a storm sail? The topping lift makes a good tag line for reeving a proper line for going aloft or hoisting a storm sail, but the rest of the time it is just added windage and chafe on the sail. A boomkicker does all the jobs of a topping lift with no chafe. For a spare halyard aft, rig an external halyard in the port sheeves. The same line has multiple uses. A spare jib halyard, a spare main halyard or storm sail halyard, a topping lift. When not used as a halyard or topping lift it stows at the mast and is ready for any emergency use. S. Sauer ... pop rivets? Self tapping screws? On a 30 footer? To each his own ... but prepare to get your wallet out if you ever have to pay a rigger to work on the boom. I've never seen a self tapping screw (sheet metal screw) in 316 stainless. I have seen $100's in damage to fittings and spars caused by corrosion and sheet metal screws used on boats. The people that mount things on boats for a living use machine screws and barrier coatings so the fasteners don't mate with the spar. I've never seen a fitting installed properly with sheet metal screws. To answer the original poster's questions: 1. How do I select the size of the cleat? I held a 6.5" cleat up and wrapped the topping lift line around it this weekend, and that seems about the right size. The cleat needs only to be big enough to hold two round turns of the line that belays to it. 2. Will a nylon or marelon cleat be sufficient? Yes 3. What kind of fasteners should I use? The cleat package says "use 1/4" fasteners". 1/4-20 machine screws, probably flat head (assuming countersunk holes in the cleat). My feeling is that for a 1/4" or 5/16" line a cleat should only need 10-24 fasteners. If the line is 3/8" or larger, a cleat that needs 1/4-20 fasteners sounds about right. 4. How do I ensure that I don't hit anything critical like wiring inside the mast when I drill? The wiring in your mast should be in a conduit. Conduits usually run either right next to the sail track on the aft face of the mast or on one of the front "corners". It is highly unlikely that the wiring will be close to an area where you would want to put a cleat. 5. How do I adequately seal the holes so I don't get water inside the mast? If your mast has internal halyards there are already many places for water to get inside the mast. Don't worry about sealing the holes. Do worry about using a barrier to prevent corrosion between the the stainless steel screws and the mast. Tef-Gel or Lanacote on the threads will do the job nicely. 6. How do I determine the best mast location for the cleat? I don't want it positioned so it will snag anything. The first rule of rigging is "Fair Leads". There is only one line that the cleat can lie on. It should be at a 10deg angle to the line that keeps the topping lift centred in the mast exit. Where along that line you place the cleat is the only question. My personal preference for topping lift cleats is low on the mast. Most modern boats don't have winches on the mast and the load on a topping lift is high. If the cleat is low, you can take a turn and haul up on the line while you sweat the boom up by pulling the line away from the mast then surging the line on the cleat to hold the gain. If there is a winch on the mast, you probably need it for other things beside the topping lift. You might want to consider using rope clutches for the topping lift and the other lines the winch serves. The real qestion is ... Did the boat come with a rope topping lift when it was new in 1992? If it did, how was the topping lift rigged? Was it lead aft? where did it cleat before? What happened to the original cleat?
The Rest of the World Still uses topping lifts
After a quick survey among the other longtime sailboat owners that I know and a look around the marina that I know, topping lifts were the only thing going. There were no kickers on any of the 8 boats personally known to me and none on the approximately 100 boats around the marina. Jim perhaps you are just a visionary. Or having a vision. LOL On one designs fine, for the few boats bigger that may want them fine, not for me. Other uses do include the above lifting hoisting options. My lift on my V25 is the same size as my main halyard and since its a Mac the mast comes down once and a while for maintainence anyway so no problem with worn/chafed lines. Back to the original question. Moody speaks truth in his post in regards to both the installation and sealing of the cleat. Machine screws 1/4", flat head are best. If the mast is thick enough, drilling and tapping(threading) the holes will hold. Approximately 2.5 threads minimum. If not, finding a way to get nuts behind them is best. Sheet metal screws will hold, but not nearly as well plus they will eventually work loose.
After a quick survey among the other longtime sailboat owners that I know and a look around the marina that I know, topping lifts were the only thing going. There were no kickers on any of the 8 boats personally known to me and none on the approximately 100 boats around the marina. Jim perhaps you are just a visionary. Or having a vision. LOL On one designs fine, for the few boats bigger that may want them fine, not for me. Other uses do include the above lifting hoisting options. My lift on my V25 is the same size as my main halyard and since its a Mac the mast comes down once and a while for maintainence anyway so no problem with worn/chafed lines. Back to the original question. Moody speaks truth in his post in regards to both the installation and sealing of the cleat. Machine screws 1/4", flat head are best. If the mast is thick enough, drilling and tapping(threading) the holes will hold. Approximately 2.5 threads minimum. If not, finding a way to get nuts behind them is best. Sheet metal screws will hold, but not nearly as well plus they will eventually work loose.
Different strokes - different folks eh?
When I look at the 10 boats moored on each side of me (20 boats totalled), I see that 7 of them have Boom-Kickers, 9 have rigid vangs (eg. Garhauer), and 4 have regular vangs. This same scene plays out across the creek and is consistant in the harbour. Every one of them has some sort of fastening device to keep the boom from swinging at the clew, whether it be a topping lift of short wire to the backstay. I don't want to be around when someone decides they are going aloft on a topping lift. Pretty dangerous.
When I look at the 10 boats moored on each side of me (20 boats totalled), I see that 7 of them have Boom-Kickers, 9 have rigid vangs (eg. Garhauer), and 4 have regular vangs. This same scene plays out across the creek and is consistant in the harbour. Every one of them has some sort of fastening device to keep the boom from swinging at the clew, whether it be a topping lift of short wire to the backstay. I don't want to be around when someone decides they are going aloft on a topping lift. Pretty dangerous.
thanks for help
I didn't mean to launch a topping lift vs. boom kicker fire storm
But the reality of the issue is I currently have the budget for a cleat and some screws, but I don't have the budget for a rigid vang or boom kicker. That money is going into a new main. I appreciate all the suggestions and instructions. I feel that I have enough info to tackle this project now. This board is awesome! Moody - you asked about the original topping lift. As far as I can tell, there never was a cleat. It's tied off to a small ring on the mast, and it's a pain when you need to adjust it. I also have no indication that it was ever lead aft. I have rope clutches on the starboard side - jib halyard, main halyard, and reefing line. No mast winch - just use the starboard cabin top winch for the three lines in the clutches. My ideal will be to run the topping lift and outhaul on the port side to the cockpit. That's on my list for future. But for now, I can resolve alot of pain by installing a cleat for the topping lift. Where can I buy Tef-Gel or Lanacote? Is that a Lowes purchase? Thanks again for the help!
I didn't mean to launch a topping lift vs. boom kicker fire storm
But the reality of the issue is I currently have the budget for a cleat and some screws, but I don't have the budget for a rigid vang or boom kicker. That money is going into a new main. I appreciate all the suggestions and instructions. I feel that I have enough info to tackle this project now. This board is awesome! Moody - you asked about the original topping lift. As far as I can tell, there never was a cleat. It's tied off to a small ring on the mast, and it's a pain when you need to adjust it. I also have no indication that it was ever lead aft. I have rope clutches on the starboard side - jib halyard, main halyard, and reefing line. No mast winch - just use the starboard cabin top winch for the three lines in the clutches. My ideal will be to run the topping lift and outhaul on the port side to the cockpit. That's on my list for future. But for now, I can resolve alot of pain by installing a cleat for the topping lift. Where can I buy Tef-Gel or Lanacote? Is that a Lowes purchase? Thanks again for the help!
Dealers ...
Tef-Gel dealer in TN: Sea Ray, Inc. Knoxville,TN 37914 865-525-9940 I think West Marine should have both Lanacote and Tef-Gel. Tef-Gel is the best stuff I've ever used for keeping threads free. However it is a one-trick pony ... not much use for anything else. Lanacote (from Forespar) is lanolin based (sheep grease), does almost as good a job as Tef-Gel and has other uses on the boat. A dab of Lanacote on the threads of turnbuckles and life-line fittings will keep the threads working properly.
Tef-Gel dealer in TN: Sea Ray, Inc. Knoxville,TN 37914 865-525-9940 I think West Marine should have both Lanacote and Tef-Gel. Tef-Gel is the best stuff I've ever used for keeping threads free. However it is a one-trick pony ... not much use for anything else. Lanacote (from Forespar) is lanolin based (sheep grease), does almost as good a job as Tef-Gel and has other uses on the boat. A dab of Lanacote on the threads of turnbuckles and life-line fittings will keep the threads working properly.
anhydrous lanolin?
I have a tub of anhydrous lanolin that my engine mechanic gave me - said to use it anywhere you would use silicone grease. Is that an adequate substitute for Lanacote?
I have a tub of anhydrous lanolin that my engine mechanic gave me - said to use it anywhere you would use silicone grease. Is that an adequate substitute for Lanacote?
successful!
Cleat is successfully installed and working great. Thanks to all who contributed. Next project - replace the topping lift line itself . . .
Cleat is successfully installed and working great. Thanks to all who contributed. Next project - replace the topping lift line itself . . .
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