inspectors estimated current market value vs asking price

[Kings Gambit]

So, there are some wet and delaminated areas in the area of the chain plate. how big if a deal is this? they are small, but there.

Pre-purchase surveys are sight only; not invasive. The new owner does not find out the true extent of such damage until his shipwrights “can open it up”, etc. Read carefully what your surveyor might be trying to tell you about it. If it’s something that sounds like “pending” deeper investigation, I’d be very careful moving forward. Maybe have a chat with him/her about it. The surveyor might tell you stuff that s/he will not commit to paper. That person is working for you on the matter of the condition of the boat. Learn all you can. Shipyard repairs add up quickly; very quickly.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

IMHO, $17K would a big price for that or similar boat. But, I’ve recently seen Newport 28s of similar age in apparent good condition being offered in the range of $12K - $15K. So that price is not completely out of the “market range.”

The law of supply and demand and inflation is doing some dramatic things right now - and I think used sailboat sales have been on a strong run over the past 2 years. I just did a comparison of the numbers and pricing of the boat we purchased 2 years ago and what is on the market today. 2 years ago, there were 15 boats for sale in model year 1999 to 2005 in the area that was limited from Massachusetts to North Carolina. Today, based on the same source (Yacht World), there are just 7 in the entire country (including one in Canada) and the average price exceeds 20% greater now than the average I calculated 2 years ago. The boats are 2 years older now, too. Also, I didn't recognize any of the boats in my area (now) as one of the ones that was advertised 2 years ago. In fact, when I looked at listings at the end of 2020, it appeared that all 15 that I targeted were off the market by the end of the year.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Thank you, and while I said inconsequential, there are a few item of serious consequence and a failed seacock and the is one of them. Thank you for the estimate, that will help in my "negotiations".

$2,000 to $3,000 for seacock replacement is ridiculous. It's not a difficult or costly job. What about it (or them) has failed? You are not clear about the chain plates. What specifically is wrong with them? Do the chain plates pass thru the deck and is the attachment to bulkheads secure? How are the bulkheads? Is the complaint only about the deck? "Wet" could be a bad reading on the meter (it happens when around metal) or it could be a very small area that can be managed. Delamination is more severe. Is it visibly delaminated and soft or is it based on a hammer sounding and without the sounding can you even tell a difference? There are so many variables that can range from very serious to inconsequential. Again, if you are looking only at 40 year old boats, they will all have "consequential" issues unless you just happen to stumble into the 1 in 10,000 that is immaculate. If you are uncomfortable with spending money after you have made the purchase of a 40 year old boat, then sailboat ownership probably isn't for you ... or you need to buy brand new. I take the Seller's side, as if you couldn't tell . Unless the boat is obviously trash, the price is probably about right. What are you expecting to find in 40 year-old boats?

 

[Kings Gambit]

$2,000 to $3,000 for seacock replacement is ridiculous.

Scott, it depends on how many are being replaced and what work must be done to remove and install them; the price of materials. They all should be replaced. It's not ridiculous, depending; and unless you've had the work done yourself on your boat you might not know what it could cost. I advised him to get an estimate from the boat yard. So, let's drop it to $1,000; still a lot. I had a friend a few years back in St. Petersburg, FL who reported that he spent $5,000 to have all of the seacocks replaced on his Sabre 28. Maybe there were other charges in there as well; like a bottom job; but I heard only "seacocks" in the "complaint."

 

[dlochner]

Well, the asking and inspectors prices are 4,800.00 different. The asking is fair and the repairs are fairly inconsequential. new cutlass bearing, a few inoperable seacocks and new main chain plates, the navigation lights don't work, the fresh water intake hose is broke and the tank is disconnected and other various hoses need replaced. oh, and the prop shaft packing needs replacing.
The surveyor used recent sales of similar boats and the repairs required.

$17,000 seems kind of high for a 40 year old boat unless it is in tip top shape, which the one you are looking at isn't. The items you list appear simple, but they may not be. Why does it need new chain plates? How are the bulkheads and decks around the chain plate?

Hoses can be expensive, up to $10 a foot. Seacocks that need to be replaced, not all can be rehabbed, are quite expensive.

An actual selling price of $12K to $15K seems more inline with the market for boats of this vintage.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Scott, it depends on how many are being replaced and what work must be done to remove and install them; the price of materials. They all should be replaced. It's not ridiculous, depending; and unless you've had the work done yourself on your boat you might not know what it could cost. I advised him to get an estimate from the boat yard. So, let's drop it to $1,000; still a lot. I had a friend a few years back in St. Petersburg, FL who reported that he spent $5,000 to have all of the seacocks replaced on his Sabre 28. Maybe there were other charges in there as well; like a bottom job; but I heard only "seacocks" in the "complaint."

In 2015, I replaced 4 seacocks plus ball valves. Including haul-out, etc. it cost $986 b/f taxes--then. Yet add the 7% port charge, and we have >$1,000. But I've done it twice (2015 & 2019) b/c I have a lot of thru hulls (four each time); so 2x equals >$2,000. Again, check with the yard. Smaller boat; yes, likely a lower cost, etc. But who knows on a boat that old?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

In 2015, I replaced 4 seacocks plus ball valves. Including haul-out, etc. it cost $986 b/f taxes--then. Yet add the 7% port charge, and we have >$1,000. But I've done it twice (2015 & 2019) b/c I have a lot of thru hulls (four each time); so 2x equals >$2,000. Again, check with the yard. Smaller boat; yes, likely a lower cost, etc. But who knows on a boat that old?

I think that I would bet that you are used to Florida and California prices, which jaded your response. Also, I suspect that your LOA influences your yard costs regardless of the similarity of any task with a much smaller boat!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

$17,000 seems kind of high for a 40 year old boat unless it is in tip top shape, which the one you are looking at isn't. The items you list appear simple, but they may not be. Why does it need new chain plates? How are the bulkheads and decks around the chain plate?

Hoses can be expensive, up to $10 a foot. Seacocks that need to be replaced, not all can be rehabbed, are quite expensive.

An actual selling price of $12K to $15K seems more inline with the market for boats of this vintage.

Actual selling price based on what? You can look at this boat. It shows very well and is obviously ready to sail away. A 1988 model is asking almost $30,000. I don't know what chain plates are the issue but the shrouds are the only ones that pass through the deck. They have a very beefy attachment to the wood bulkheads below and they certainly don't appear to be damaged in any way (we can't really see). One photo shows some markings on the bulkhead that aren't clear what it is. If the wood is solid, I don't know why there would be any concern. The deck around the shrouds won't have any impact on the security of the shrouds if there is some wet material or softness. The repair on deck would be cosmetic. He should be able to tell if it has leaked. Who says the seacocks need to be replaced? It doesn't sound like the Buyer really knows the full story yet. I'd get a response from the Seller to see if the truth is really a better version of the story. I've experienced that surveyors often are hardest on the Seller. It's much easier to defend an overly conservative opinion in favor of the buyer. There isn't a person in the world that doesn't carry a bias and surveyors are no exception.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

There is always a lot of discussion in this forum about what a buyer should demand from a seller in a used boat transaction. There is always 2 sides to every position and the Buyer doesn't get to dictate the terms in a vacuum. In this case, there is a lot that sounds really vague. "Chain plates need to be replaced" Why? What's the issue. I didn't hear anything about cracks or crevice corrosion. There doesn't seem to be any specific complaint. Wet spots in the deck and delamination. Ok, how bad? What difference will it make? How was the delamination determined? Is it so bad that it is obvious? The photos show a pretty clean boat. Can you only find the delamination because a few hammer taps had a thud? So what? Every old boat needs constant repair and maintenance. I suspect that if the Buyer attempts to nick the Seller for every pimple, the Buyer will come out on the losing end.

 

[Kings Gambit]

In the end, I’ve never been a fan of the Newport 30. We have lots of them here in Southern California. They’re reminiscent (to me) of the Watkins 30 of Florida fame which I also did not care for. The Newport 28 is more liked. It’s prettier and has a good PHRF rating. So, I wouldn’t see any price for the N30 as one to bite on.

 

[dlochner]

Actual selling price based on what? You can look at this boat.

If the boat is sold through a broker and the broker subscribes to YachtWorld.com they are obligated to supply YachtWorld with the actual selling price. If you are a broker you will have access to this information. This is how a broker can help you decide what the asking and selling price should be.

The broker's word is not gospel and seller can ask for any price he wants. Although, brokers have been known to turn down representing a boat because the asking price is too high for the condition of a boat.

It also seems that an unwritten rule of boat sales is the selling price will be 10-20% lower than the asking price. In this case the Surveyor's assessment of the boat's market value as being $4800 less than the asking price is not that far off.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

In the end, I’ve never been a fan of the Newport 30. We have lots of them here in Southern California. They’re reminiscent (to me) of the Watkins 30 of Florida fame which I also did not care for. The Newport 28 is more liked. It’s prettier and has a good PHRF rating. So, I wouldn’t see any price for the N30 as one to bite on.

Oh, c'mon! That's an unwarranted dis! It isn't even comparable to a Watkins 30. The PHRF of Newport 30 is favorable to just about every single production boat that you can name ... not a lot better, but no worse. According to New England PHRF rating it is 174 to 171, which is right in the mix with any 30' model Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau, etc, even Tartan and Sabre. It's not as good as S2 but it appears to perform with a better than average PHRF for 30'. Watkins 30 isn't even close to any of those. It certainly is as attractive as the Newport 28, but that's subjective. It looks like it has better tankage than other models, which is a big plus. I guess there is a reason why there are so many of them in socal but nobody seems to be letting them go. There must be a reason!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It also seems that an unwritten rule of boat sales is the selling price will be 10-20% lower than the asking price. In this case the Surveyor's assessment of the boat's market value as being $4800 less than the asking price is not that far off.

I think that is unsubstantiated (unwritten??) and not even close to reality in today's market. You're talking about trash boats probably.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Scott, let’s put it into empirical terms. Newport 28s win or otherwise do well in PHRF races here. I don’t recall seeing the 30 model winning any races, etc. But, they are not raced that much. A good rating is one that gives a boat a better time correction than it deserves based on its features, as you know. The 28 may be rated at the good edge of its performance envelope. Many light air races here in Long Beach. The lighter (3/4 ton lighter) boat will do better relative to its PHRF rating than the heavier one in, say, an 8-10 kt TWS race.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

empirical? really??

 

[Kings Gambit]

empirical? really??

Look it up. AKA “Proof is in the pudding.” If it wins, it wins.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'll take your word for it. (Not that it matters)

 

[dlochner]

The Newport 28 (all three versions) was designed by the C&C Design Group, the same folks who designed all the early C&Cs that were popular on PHRF circuit in the 80s and 90s. It ha

The Newport 30 was designed by Gary Mull, who was innovative and pushed the limits sailboat design with free standing rigs, self-tending jibs, and so forth. Mull was not one who designed fast boats for the racing crowd.

Therein lies the performance difference between the Newport 28 and 30.

 

[RoyS]

The reason you are getting so many opinions is because most of us sailors are unable to get to our own boats and we have nothing better to do as the snow melts. Here is one more comment from a sidelined sailor: As you get older you begin to think in terms of how many summers do I have left. Don't waste this summer looking at other boats if this one suits you. Buy it and get out there.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The Newport 28 (all three versions) was designed by the C&C Design Group, the same folks who designed all the early C&Cs that were popular on PHRF circuit in the 80s and 90s. It ha

The Newport 30 was designed by Gary Mull, who was innovative and pushed the limits sailboat design with free standing rigs, self-tending jibs, and so forth. Mull was not one who designed fast boats for the racing crowd.

Therein lies the performance difference between the Newport 28 and 30.

So, it appears that the reason Newport 28 wins is because somebody is/was more successful lobbying PHRF for higher numbers (192+ compared to 170 to 180 for C&C comparables). I guess that is what @Kings Gambit meant when he wrote that the boat has a "good" PHRF number! (I'm always thinking the wrong way when I think that "good" means lower number for faster boat. ) That doesn't speak very highly about PHRF as a standard for race results and measurement of performance. But, I think most sailor/racers have expressed their differences with PHRF.

Despite the design heritage between the two models, I still won't concede that the Newport 30 is a dog in comparison to a Newport 28. There is nothing wrong with the pedigree of this boat. I'm with Roy above. If it's a boat that appeals to the buyer and it's in good shape, make a deal and go sailing!