Today, I had an interesting conversation with a 13 year old sailor from Newport Beach. A 13 year old calling is a first for me. His dad told him to call. What he was telling me was that his dad likes to drive the boat with a lot of heel but always complains about the excessive weather helm generated every time he does. The young lad felt there was a scientific reason for that effect. He even tested it himself. The more heel he put into his dads boat the more weather helm he got. He wanted to know why that was. You just can't beat how these young sailors think. When I do seminars for young sailors I have to really be on my toes because these young guys and gals want to know WHY everything happens and you can't BS them because they will catch you. The only way I deal with their questions is by being very simple. Scintific answers only get me in trouble. Here's why it happens. Sail boats are steered by 3 things - sails, helm (which is obvious) and heel. Since the young lad is a small boat sailor I asked him if he ever lifted the center board and steered with only the sails. He said he did - a lot!! I asked him how he did it and he said to fall off he eases the main and trims the jib and to come up he trims the main and eases the jib. So far, how would you like to sail against this little guy? Anyway, that eliminated the sails and helm from the conversation. Now for heeling. To keep it real simple, when you heel the boat you are changing the underwater profile. In other words, when the boat is on its feet there is an equal amount of lift on both sides and the boat wants to go straight. Say your on starboard tack and the boat is heeling to port. What is happening then is the port side of the hull is now longer than the starboard side. The lift is no longer equal on both sides and the boat wants to turn into the wind thus creating weather helm. I'm sure there are more scientific answers, which I'll bet this lad will get into now that he knows how it works. What a polite lad he was - called me Mr. Guillette through the entire conversation and then thanked me for my time. Sailing is a good sport to get youngster into. It is something they can carry through out their lives.
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Heeling and Weather Helm
One more item - look at it from the top of the boat. When it heels - the sails and their center of effort move outward, combined with the resistance with the hull which shifts a bit, but still stays closer to the boat's center - this creates a couple which also tends to turn the boat upwind. Perhaps my crude sketch will illustrate this.
One more item - look at it from the top of the boat. When it heels - the sails and their center of effort move outward, combined with the resistance with the hull which shifts a bit, but still stays closer to the boat's center - this creates a couple which also tends to turn the boat upwind. Perhaps my crude sketch will illustrate this.
Don
Recently I was sailing with a friend on SF Bay in 25kt winds aboard his 1972 26ft Skipper Marine. We were on a close haul to Angle Island from the Berkley area (east). I suspect we were heeling 30 deg. with full jib
Recently I was sailing with a friend on SF Bay in 25kt winds aboard his 1972 26ft Skipper Marine. We were on a close haul to Angle Island from the Berkley area (east). I suspect we were heeling 30 deg. with full jib
Too much heel
You can see my reply over on the Guest Expert forum where you first asked this - but yes - 30 deg is probably too much heel. Experiment with a flatter boat - reef, ease traveller, sheet out (control twist with the vang), add halyard or cunningham tension - and reef some more. You will want to get the boat flatter and then re-evaluate the helm. It still sounds like something (else?) is way off - even with a rail in the water our J22s are not heavy at the helm. If your rudder is similar to a beach catamaran (Hobie or similar) - then rudder rake aft, or a pivoting rudder that is not all the way down, will cause the problem that you describe.
You can see my reply over on the Guest Expert forum where you first asked this - but yes - 30 deg is probably too much heel. Experiment with a flatter boat - reef, ease traveller, sheet out (control twist with the vang), add halyard or cunningham tension - and reef some more. You will want to get the boat flatter and then re-evaluate the helm. It still sounds like something (else?) is way off - even with a rail in the water our J22s are not heavy at the helm. If your rudder is similar to a beach catamaran (Hobie or similar) - then rudder rake aft, or a pivoting rudder that is not all the way down, will cause the problem that you describe.
Heeling
Roger: As Old Cat stated, 30 degrees is too much heel.I would add that it is WAY too much heel. The reason is simple - there is NO benefit to that much heel in the first place. The heel range you should be shooting for is around 15 degrees. To me it is just not fun to have to fight the boat. I don't think you have a keel problem. I think it has more to do with your sail trim. Depower the main and jib and see if the boat comes back on its feet. I assume you guys know how to depower the boat but if you don't just sing out and we'll tell you how to do it.
Roger: As Old Cat stated, 30 degrees is too much heel.I would add that it is WAY too much heel. The reason is simple - there is NO benefit to that much heel in the first place. The heel range you should be shooting for is around 15 degrees. To me it is just not fun to have to fight the boat. I don't think you have a keel problem. I think it has more to do with your sail trim. Depower the main and jib and see if the boat comes back on its feet. I assume you guys know how to depower the boat but if you don't just sing out and we'll tell you how to do it.
Depowering
Yes Don - I would like to know what youdo to depower. In response to the 26footer weather helm - I sailed a 24 foot Riviera Star till this summer and it too would heel easily and then we had a heck of a pull on the rudder - we did break the first rudder. i think that the smaller cruising boats have to trade off between speed and performance in strong winds - ours was definitely not designed for strong winds but we took it out in them nevertheless. The trade off I believe is a shorter keel and rudder - hence we got a lot of slippage and a rudder that stalled a lot.
Yes Don - I would like to know what youdo to depower. In response to the 26footer weather helm - I sailed a 24 foot Riviera Star till this summer and it too would heel easily and then we had a heck of a pull on the rudder - we did break the first rudder. i think that the smaller cruising boats have to trade off between speed and performance in strong winds - ours was definitely not designed for strong winds but we took it out in them nevertheless. The trade off I believe is a shorter keel and rudder - hence we got a lot of slippage and a rudder that stalled a lot.
Depower
Nick H: The first thing you want to do is ease the traveler down and move the fairlead outside if you have in and out tracks. Generally, that will get the boat on its feet. Assume that only helps a bit. Next, you want to reduce draft depth to about 20% (crank on the outhaul and bend (not rake)the mast. Also induce twist in the main and jib and you do that with the mainsail by easing the mainsheet and boom vang. For the jib, you move the fairlead forward. Assume you want to depower the boat even further. What you do is flatten both the main and jib as much as possable because a flat sail is a less powerful sail. There comes a point with wind speed where nothing will help the heel and you have to reduce sail. This is an aside and I wish I could prove what I'm about to say. I see race boats all the time with the rail in the water, guys sitting on the other side and I can almost see part of the keel. I don't think the keel is working efficiently in that position. It looks trick but I think they are actually slow even though they look fast because all the other boats are doing the same thing. The boat drivers have the rudder cranked over fighting weather helm and it looks to me like they are creating a lot of rudder drag. I would like to match an identical boat with an identical sail set and about 15 degrees of heel and see what happens. I think the 15 degree boat would be faster. I never see Congressional Cup or America Cup boats with excessive heel(beyond degrees20). I've raced on excessively heeled boats but since I'm only the mainsheet/traverler trimmer I don't say anything because no one asks me but I think the boat would be faster with less heel and the crew in the correct position on the rail, which ain't forward or in the middle where you normally see them sitting.
Nick H: The first thing you want to do is ease the traveler down and move the fairlead outside if you have in and out tracks. Generally, that will get the boat on its feet. Assume that only helps a bit. Next, you want to reduce draft depth to about 20% (crank on the outhaul and bend (not rake)the mast. Also induce twist in the main and jib and you do that with the mainsail by easing the mainsheet and boom vang. For the jib, you move the fairlead forward. Assume you want to depower the boat even further. What you do is flatten both the main and jib as much as possable because a flat sail is a less powerful sail. There comes a point with wind speed where nothing will help the heel and you have to reduce sail. This is an aside and I wish I could prove what I'm about to say. I see race boats all the time with the rail in the water, guys sitting on the other side and I can almost see part of the keel. I don't think the keel is working efficiently in that position. It looks trick but I think they are actually slow even though they look fast because all the other boats are doing the same thing. The boat drivers have the rudder cranked over fighting weather helm and it looks to me like they are creating a lot of rudder drag. I would like to match an identical boat with an identical sail set and about 15 degrees of heel and see what happens. I think the 15 degree boat would be faster. I never see Congressional Cup or America Cup boats with excessive heel(beyond degrees20). I've raced on excessively heeled boats but since I'm only the mainsheet/traverler trimmer I don't say anything because no one asks me but I think the boat would be faster with less heel and the crew in the correct position on the rail, which ain't forward or in the middle where you normally see them sitting.
Don - have I been doing it backwards?
Hmmm, I've been flatting as much as possible _first_, and if still overpowered _then_ I induce twist. Have I been doing it backwards? Is this boat dependent? My jib has only fixed blocks so I can't do anything about the jib except ease the sheets. If the weather and wind cooperate I'll try both this weekend to see which reduces heel more for me. Typically such tests are inconclusive because the winds are so variable on my lake. ...RickM...
Hmmm, I've been flatting as much as possible _first_, and if still overpowered _then_ I induce twist. Have I been doing it backwards? Is this boat dependent? My jib has only fixed blocks so I can't do anything about the jib except ease the sheets. If the weather and wind cooperate I'll try both this weekend to see which reduces heel more for me. Typically such tests are inconclusive because the winds are so variable on my lake. ...RickM...
Dropping the Traveller
Regarding Depowering, Don Wrote: "The first thing you want to do is ease the traveler down" I am going to disagree a bit - not because I feel that Don is wrong - but because I feel that it is condition dependent. With a steady or nearly steady wind - I would agree - drop the traveller and sail on. Where I sail - inland waters - the winds are often waaaaay not steady when they get up. I used to sail my small boats off California's coast - now I sail on inland lakes in Colorado. The winds here are much shiftier and much gustier. The trouble with dropping the traveller is that it is much less ergonomic (user friendly) than using the mainsheet on the boat that I sail. Playing the traveller with a small or inexperienced crew is a PIA on a J22. It is much more comfortable, better control, to play the mainsheet. I set the vang to limit twist. With a small boat, in winds that vary from heeled to windward to rail in the water I think it is just easier - at least on a J22 - to play the mainsheet. An advantage of playing the sheet is that I add twist (to spill air off the top of the sail) when it gusts and I need it - then take it out in a lull when I don't. There are other concerns besides than boat speed, at least for we non-racers. Control, and reducing fatigue with a small and sometimes inexperienced crew also play into the decision. The jib is small on a J22 - so with a hand on the tiller and one on the sheet I have most of the boats control in hand where I can keep up with the shifts and gusts. Just a different perspective.
Regarding Depowering, Don Wrote: "The first thing you want to do is ease the traveler down" I am going to disagree a bit - not because I feel that Don is wrong - but because I feel that it is condition dependent. With a steady or nearly steady wind - I would agree - drop the traveller and sail on. Where I sail - inland waters - the winds are often waaaaay not steady when they get up. I used to sail my small boats off California's coast - now I sail on inland lakes in Colorado. The winds here are much shiftier and much gustier. The trouble with dropping the traveller is that it is much less ergonomic (user friendly) than using the mainsheet on the boat that I sail. Playing the traveller with a small or inexperienced crew is a PIA on a J22. It is much more comfortable, better control, to play the mainsheet. I set the vang to limit twist. With a small boat, in winds that vary from heeled to windward to rail in the water I think it is just easier - at least on a J22 - to play the mainsheet. An advantage of playing the sheet is that I add twist (to spill air off the top of the sail) when it gusts and I need it - then take it out in a lull when I don't. There are other concerns besides than boat speed, at least for we non-racers. Control, and reducing fatigue with a small and sometimes inexperienced crew also play into the decision. The jib is small on a J22 - so with a hand on the tiller and one on the sheet I have most of the boats control in hand where I can keep up with the shifts and gusts. Just a different perspective.
Heeling
Rick & Oldcat: To beginners to intermediates reading this thread, there is a lot of correct info to cull through and if you do that you will have the complete picture of how to get a boat back on its feet. After you digest and organize all the info, then go out and try it on your boat and see what works for you. As long as a mate has thought out the process I don't think it really matters which they do first - flatten, drop the traveler or induce twist but you must be able to justify to yourself (the most important person in the equation) why you proceed the way you do. The way I do it is just the way I've done it for 100 years but as you'll see at the end of this message, I have a reason for the way I do it. The most important thing is to KNOW the various ways to depower or power up the boat for whatever conditions you are sailing in. To me, knowing what to do is EVERYTHING. The next thing you have to know is the particulars of your boat. In Oldcats and Rick's case, playing the mainsheet may be the best way to go. It is impossable for me to deal with every size boat so I always pick an average of say 30' and on a 30' the best bet is to use the traveler first and here's why. The traveler only changes the angle of attack. The traveler does not effect the shape of the sail. So, if I drop the traveler and ease the jib sheet I'm reducing power and I can easily power up by sheeting in and moving the traveler up. On the other hand, if I start with the mainsheet I'm now dealing with draft position, angle of attack and twist and eventually I'm going to be forced to do something with the traveler also. That's a lot of work, when in 95% of the situations I've run into I can get the boat back on its feet by merely dropping the traveler. If it doesn't do the job then I go on to other steps.
Rick & Oldcat: To beginners to intermediates reading this thread, there is a lot of correct info to cull through and if you do that you will have the complete picture of how to get a boat back on its feet. After you digest and organize all the info, then go out and try it on your boat and see what works for you. As long as a mate has thought out the process I don't think it really matters which they do first - flatten, drop the traveler or induce twist but you must be able to justify to yourself (the most important person in the equation) why you proceed the way you do. The way I do it is just the way I've done it for 100 years but as you'll see at the end of this message, I have a reason for the way I do it. The most important thing is to KNOW the various ways to depower or power up the boat for whatever conditions you are sailing in. To me, knowing what to do is EVERYTHING. The next thing you have to know is the particulars of your boat. In Oldcats and Rick's case, playing the mainsheet may be the best way to go. It is impossable for me to deal with every size boat so I always pick an average of say 30' and on a 30' the best bet is to use the traveler first and here's why. The traveler only changes the angle of attack. The traveler does not effect the shape of the sail. So, if I drop the traveler and ease the jib sheet I'm reducing power and I can easily power up by sheeting in and moving the traveler up. On the other hand, if I start with the mainsheet I'm now dealing with draft position, angle of attack and twist and eventually I'm going to be forced to do something with the traveler also. That's a lot of work, when in 95% of the situations I've run into I can get the boat back on its feet by merely dropping the traveler. If it doesn't do the job then I go on to other steps.
Don's right
But OldCat raises an interesting point. I suspect his traveler is more difficult to adjust than his mainsheet, and thus he avoids using it when he doesn't have to. Perhaps it doesn't have enough mechanical advantage, or perhaps it is a "two-hander." That is why I like that Harken windward sheeting setup so much - with a 3 to 1 advantage it is easy to bring the car up or to ease it WITH ONE HAND. Additionally, it is a snap to ease it in a puff and bring it right back to exactly the same position by feel - you don't even need to look at the sail. This is more difficult to do with the mainsheet. And perhaps, most importantly, you can adjust helm pressure with the traveler in very fine increments. When racing, I sail with one hand on the tiller and one on the traveler line, and adjust the latter more than the former, virtually steering the boat with the traveler position much of the time.
But OldCat raises an interesting point. I suspect his traveler is more difficult to adjust than his mainsheet, and thus he avoids using it when he doesn't have to. Perhaps it doesn't have enough mechanical advantage, or perhaps it is a "two-hander." That is why I like that Harken windward sheeting setup so much - with a 3 to 1 advantage it is easy to bring the car up or to ease it WITH ONE HAND. Additionally, it is a snap to ease it in a puff and bring it right back to exactly the same position by feel - you don't even need to look at the sail. This is more difficult to do with the mainsheet. And perhaps, most importantly, you can adjust helm pressure with the traveler in very fine increments. When racing, I sail with one hand on the tiller and one on the traveler line, and adjust the latter more than the former, virtually steering the boat with the traveler position much of the time.
Incorrect information
Don wrote: "Also induce twist in the main and jib and you do that with the mainsail by easing the mainsheet and boom vang. For the jib, you move the fairlead forward." I think you are giving some wrong infomation here which may confuse the beginners. To induce twist in the jib you have to move the fairlead aft not forward. The proper amount of heel will vary from boat to boat. Generally speaking, a boat with a wide beam should be sailed flatter than a narrow beam boat. The wide beam boat will develop hull form induced weather helm more quickly. If you have velocity prediction data for your particular boat, check to see what the maximum heel should be for a particular wind strength. My C&C 29 which has a narrow waterline beam can handle 27 degrees of heel upwind before performance is hurt. Ted
Don wrote: "Also induce twist in the main and jib and you do that with the mainsail by easing the mainsheet and boom vang. For the jib, you move the fairlead forward." I think you are giving some wrong infomation here which may confuse the beginners. To induce twist in the jib you have to move the fairlead aft not forward. The proper amount of heel will vary from boat to boat. Generally speaking, a boat with a wide beam should be sailed flatter than a narrow beam boat. The wide beam boat will develop hull form induced weather helm more quickly. If you have velocity prediction data for your particular boat, check to see what the maximum heel should be for a particular wind strength. My C&C 29 which has a narrow waterline beam can handle 27 degrees of heel upwind before performance is hurt. Ted
Don and others
Many thanks for everyone's imput. I'm new to these formus and I've learned more in 3 weeks than in the past year bounching around on the water....roger
Many thanks for everyone's imput. I'm new to these formus and I've learned more in 3 weeks than in the past year bounching around on the water....roger
Incorrect Info
Yup, your right. My mistake - to induce twist in the jib you move the fairlead aftnot forward. Thank you for catching my mistake.
Yup, your right. My mistake - to induce twist in the jib you move the fairlead aftnot forward. Thank you for catching my mistake.
Bob:
Your intuition is correct - my traveller is not the best. These are on sailing school boats that I charter for the season - cheap sailing - but not boats I can modify. In the extreme inland gustys though - I still like using the mainsheet with the vang set - the reason is that extra bit of heel control from spilling a little air off the top as it twists. I do recognize the counter-arguments: using the traveller maintains the sheet setting so it stays the same when you come back in on the traveller. You don't have to keep looking up at that top batten! A small light boat will heel over faster than a larger heavier boat - so that also plays into my choice. It would not surprise me to find the racer's are faster using the traveller - but they also have a crew to do the work or have invested in the good parts. I really like Don's perspective - most important is to understand trim so the decisions are understood and the bits all work together. Cheers!
Your intuition is correct - my traveller is not the best. These are on sailing school boats that I charter for the season - cheap sailing - but not boats I can modify. In the extreme inland gustys though - I still like using the mainsheet with the vang set - the reason is that extra bit of heel control from spilling a little air off the top as it twists. I do recognize the counter-arguments: using the traveller maintains the sheet setting so it stays the same when you come back in on the traveller. You don't have to keep looking up at that top batten! A small light boat will heel over faster than a larger heavier boat - so that also plays into my choice. It would not surprise me to find the racer's are faster using the traveller - but they also have a crew to do the work or have invested in the good parts. I really like Don's perspective - most important is to understand trim so the decisions are understood and the bits all work together. Cheers!
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