"Inexpensive" Chartplotters - Raymarine, Lowrance, Garmin

[Maine Sail]

Because the marine market seems uninterested in what we really want or need. In the furor of creating pointless and pestiferous new toys for a boat, and the target electronic market seems to be 14 year old girls, we get electronics that are designed for, well, 14 year old mall-girls. Satellite imagery on a plotter? Why not a heads-up display? Hell, try and shoot for waterproof. Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices is why.
Wireless? Oh Lord, man. Get a grip on yourself. Wireless has been used for over twenty years successfully on computers. Why ever in the world would a cutting edge marine electronics industry step into the twenty first century?

I would not say that is completely true.


Wireless has been tried and it has been a pretty much utter failure in terms of reliability. Raymarine bought Suunto / TackTick and the problems are still persistent and this is a system with far more potent power, range wise, than BlueTooth. In my experience these wireless systems are about 50/50 success rate.. I could write chapters on the Ray/TackTick conundrum... All I can say is that I HOPE it gets better.

We use BlueTooth on our boat and beyond 10' the performance is utterly pathetic and extremely spotty. Until the FCC opens some more ranges that we can use on boats these problems will persist because the manufacturers hands are somewhat tied in terms of range. This is why with a tall stick you need a TackTick repeater for wind... Limited range as dictated by the FCC.

You could not pay me to depend on a BT signal for anything more than music on a boat at this point.

I tend to like the reliability of my plotters. In over 20 years of using GPS on boats and tens of thousands of miles not one single failure, that has left us without the ability to use the device, other than lightning but that even took out our "old school" compass....... This durability probably includes over 20 different devices/plotters & hand held units from Raymarine, Furuno, Garmin, Simrad, NorthStar, Magellan etc. etc.... The reliability of our on board GPS devices has vastly exceeded the reliability of our home computers, laptops and iToys. The only product that has been as reliable has been some of our Gen 2+/- iPods....

In everyday use for 30+ years our computers and tablets experience glitches and failures far more frequently. I am not a PC only or Apple only guy, I use both platforms, MacBook Pro, iPad, Android and multiple PC's... I find neither reliable enough for me to give up my dedicated plotter and yes I do use them on-board but NOT as my primary electronic nav tools.....

As an example my two month old iPad Air has crashed three times this morning alone......... :cussing:Apple can't even fix a MAJOR browser issue, with their own software, on the iPads, how are they going to deal with third party software issues?

I know how, because I am stuck in the middle of it right now between a third part app maker and Apple. Both just point the finger at each other. I have probably spent more time on the phone with Apple support, in the last year, than I have with marine manufacturers over 20 years. Oh but Apple products don't crash or have issues.... Right, and I suppose the fork is what made Rosie O'Donnell fat.... These are the sorts of glitches and reliability issues that give me little confidence in these toys as a navigation device, beyond last sting back ups.

The browser issue I have been having happens with all browsers, not just Safari, and has been going on now for well over a year on an iPad 2, iPad 4. I am now experiencing it with an iPad Air.. Apple has NOT been able to fix the issues on any of them. "We're working on it.". Chrome also fails to work too.. Apple still has no fix even for their OWN SOFTWARE and this issue has been plaguing us now for far too long.

This is why I call these our iToy's.. Apple treats it like a toy, still act as if they are running the company from a back yard tree fort, "hey my mom will drive if yours will pick up", and their support and resolution of software issues is just as pathetic as Microsoft.... They are now playing with the adults but still have the droopy, teenager, boxer exposed, pants half way down their thighs. Get some SUSPENDERS Apple!!

Sorry for the rant but these issues are simply inexcusable and can be potentially dangerous for a product people intend to use for navigation.

One navigation program causes my iPad Air to crash, unexpectedly and with no repeatable cause that I can find, just crashes. I however am stuck in the middle and the app creator has virtually no support and Apple simply points the finger back at them!!!!!!!!!!!! BTDT !!!!

Transas iSailor and Garmin seem to work okay but re-draw is considerably SLOWER than my vintage 3200 series Garmin plotter.... How is a "fast" iPad Air SLOWER than a mid 2000's Garmin 3200 series plotter on re-draw, and yes I have all the other maps I am using turned off etc. etc. etc..........:cussing:I also use, gulp, google Earth, for satellite imagery of coves etc. that can also be interesting. Using all the tools you have is good but I would not want lock myself into just one format.. On our laptop we also have nav programs such as open CPN.....

For now I'll stick with my 20 year 100% no failure GPS/Plotter success rate of a dedicated plotter as our primary means of electronic navigation...

We own three iPads, an iPad 2, iPad 4, iPad Air an iPhone 5 and an Android phone and you could not pay me to depend on those devices for my primary electronic navigation. Hell they can't even make their own browser work...D'oh....... Someday maybe, but right now these are back ups to back ups for us...

Do I like my iToys? Yes I actually love them. Do I have all the software for my iToys? Yes. Do I like that software? Yes I really do.. Will I depend on an iToy as a navigation device, other than my sixth string back up, not on your life, not now.........

Just my own 2¢ opinion, remember what you paid for it......

 

[Tim R.]

MaineSail is on FIRE this morning

I do think that Wifi, which is now becoming more prolific, has been a long time coming in the marine industry. But not as a reliable means to transmit crucial data but to accessorize what you already have.

Garmin has plotters now that can be controlled using their Helm application on the iPad via Wifi. This, I believe, provides a nice combination of iToys and proper devices. You have a dedicated, reliable chartplotter for your primary means of navigation. You can use Garmin's BlueChart Mobile as a backup device and a way to plan routes without having to stand at the dedicated CP. You can also use the ipad and the Helm SW to monitor what is happening at the CP. I like to steer from the low side but I also like to occasionally check my CP, speed and depth which I cannot see when sitting low in the cockpit. Now I can hang the ipad in the cockpit and see what the CP is showing including my NMEA2000 instruments.

My future setup will have a primary CP at the helm, a lessor model at the nav station for redundancy, an iPad for planning and additional CP if needed, and a handheld device that can be carried off the boat when moving about in the dinghy in fog or other situation where a mobile CP is necessary.

 

[Maine Sail]

MaineSail is on FIRE this morning

I do think that Wifi, which is now becoming more prolific, has been a long time coming in the marine industry. But not as a reliable means to transmit crucial data but to accessorize what you already have.

Garmin has plotters now that can be controlled using their Helm application on the iPad via Wifi. This, I believe, provides a nice combination of iToys and proper devices. You have a dedicated, reliable chartplotter for your primary means of navigation. You can use Garmin's BlueChart Mobile as a backup device and a way to plan routes without having to stand at the dedicated CP. You can also use the ipad and the Helm SW to monitor what is happening at the CP. I like to steer from the low side but I also like to occasionally check my CP, speed and depth which I cannot see when sitting low in the cockpit. Now I can hang the ipad in the cockpit and see what the CP is showing including my NMEA2000 instruments.

My future setup will have a primary CP at the helm, a lessor model at the nav station for redundancy, an iPad for planning and additional CP if needed, and a handheld device that can be carried off the boat when moving about in the dinghy in fog or other situation where a mobile CP is necessary.

Yeah three crashes of my iPad Air this morning after spending 45 minutes on phone support just yesterday for a "fix" that was supposed to solve this "issue".....:cussing: I think I have a bad case cranky, induced by Apple.....

 

[Tim R.]

Yeah three crashes of my iPad Air this morning after spending 45 minutes on phone support just yesterday for a "fix" that was supposed to solve this "issue".....:cussing: I think I have a bad case cranky, induced by Apple.....

Welcome to my world....until April 11th!:dance: After that it will be "no problem mon"

 

[KristinKaye]

How would I use this pad to signal my autopilot, and get info from other electronics on the boat?

If you want wireless get a a Stowe Marine NMEA Databox. It connects to the Android tablet with Bluetooth. If you want wired there are various USB/NMEA interfaces that work. Same as using a PC or laptop with navigation software to drive an autopilot.

We have never found "fish finders" to be all that useful, even for fishing. We have a separate dedicated depth sounder. However, if you want to use your tablet as a depth sounder/fish finder, there's apps for that too.

 

[KristinKaye]

For now I'll stick with my 20 year 100% no failure GPS/Plotter success rate of a dedicated plotter as our primary means of electronic navigation...

I guess not too many folks do anymore, but we still use the good old magnetic compass, paper charts and position fixing as primary. The GPS chartplotter is just a convenient backup that verifies the position fix for us and provides a real time SOG. Never have trusted electronic navigation as primary, no matter what tool is doing it.

 

[Maine Sail]

I guess not too many folks do anymore, but we still use the good old magnetic compass, paper charts and position fixing as primary. The GPS chartplotter is just a convenient backup that verifies the position fix for us and provides a real time SOG. Never have trusted electronic navigation as primary, no matter what tool is doing it.

Exactly why I said "primary means of electronic navigation"... We too keep paper on board as well as all the old school tools.

I will fully admit to being more rusty at it than I was 30 years ago but we still do DR and often back up electronics with paper when in the fog, but not always. I know I could no longer navigate via depth and compass like I did when I was a commercial lobsterman. I used to know exactly where I was in the fog by using depth & compass as my #1 tools and following my "strings". Paper charts on a Maine lobster boat, ha, ha, ha, ha those last about 30 seconds before they are unreadable.............

The big problem is that nothing is 100% safe or 100% reliable in all circumstances. There are hundreds of uncharted rocks along this coast that are neither shown on paper nor on e-charts, so in that case both fail. You need "local knowledge" if you want to avoid them all.. One of these rocks is right in front of a friends home in Blue Hill Bay and has been reported 15-20 times over 30+ years, yet it still does not show on a single chart, paper or electronic.:cussing:

The old adage of "in a lightning strike electronics are gone" applies to compasses too only most folks don't even realize it. Compasses get taken out by lightning just like electronics do. Ours was thrown so far out of whack it required a new set of compensator rods. I was involved in three strikes this summer where the compasses were thrown off by more than 20 degrees. In two of these strikes hand held GPS devices survived but the compassed did not. In the third neither compass nor any electronics survived. I suppose, if an e-nav only guy wanted to argue the point, it could be argued in those cases that; GPS in 2 out of 3 strikes were more reliable than the compasses... Interesting perspective anyway.. It always makes a strong case for both a spare compass and GPS to be stored in Faraday box....

Most insurance surveyors & owners don't even think to check the compass after a strike. Heck MOST boaters don't even have a properly swung compass and deviation card on-board, even here in foggy Maine..

Call me a Luddite but we still practice DR skills, have a calibrated and professionally swung compass, and I still try to practice "old school skills" to keep me on my toes.

That said GPS is so damn reliable, and accurate, that keeping up with old school skills requires dedication.

Perhaps someday I will give up my pacifier/paper but I'm not quite there yet, like many are... Perhaps then I will be ready to rely more heavily on my computers and tablets.......

 

[KristinKaye]

That said GPS is so damn reliable, and accurate, that keeping up with old school skills requires dedication.

I agree 100%. I think using the old way, though, makes sailing more fun under more normal conditions. It keeps you sharp, and I especially like navigating with paper. My wife not so much. She'd rather be steering the boat and she likes the GPS charting. And I must admit that the GPS is almost dead reliable and it takes me sometimes an hour to plot cross track error and VMG that the GPS will display in real time. But I still enjoy it.

 

[BayMan]

I agree with those who suggest using a tablet rather than a chart plotter. I have a ray marine chart plotter but prefer using my windows tablet with openCPN (free) and the free raster charts. Never had an issue with bright sun light. I can plan my route at home and take it to my boat. Plus the Windows's tablet is also my computer. The chart plotter is just a chart plotter.

 

[KristinKaye]

I have a ray marine chart plotter but prefer using my windows tablet with openCPN (free) and the free raster charts.

OpenCPN is probably my favorite for route planning on my laptop. But it doesn't run on my Android. Well, it can run on Android on linux running in a chroot but I haven't tried it because I think it's best suited to 10" screen or larger, and our Android tablet is 7" screen. OpenCPN is actively developed by cruising sailors and there's a forum for it on the Cruisers forum.

On Android, MX Mariner is our favorite. Although when NOAA came out with MyNOAACharts on Android last year we participated in the beta program for that and also liked it.

 

[Delezynski]

I guess I am in the GEEK class, BUT........

I have a Standard Horizon CP-180I. It's small and I have it on a removable mount so it can go with me when I am away from the boat. I LOVE the way it works, low power, built in antenna and low cost. It uses C-Map chart chips.

I also have a 10 inch windows 8 tablet with OpenCPN and CM93 charts that works well, but NOT as well as CP. I also have an original Asus Eee (7 inch) PC that will work my Icom 706 Pactor modem and also has OpenCPN with CM93 charts. It's in storage and gets checked every month or so. And in addition we have 2 more small hand held GPS units, a Garman and an Etrex in Faraday cages.

I ALSO have a Dell 7 inch Android that has a GREAT anchor watch alarm system (Sailsafe) on it for when I want to sleep when the wind comes up. It also has a built in GPS with Plan2Nav, Active Captain (also on the Windows tablet) Tides & Currents and MyNOAACharts, PocketGrib Lite, MUF Predictor Apps on it....

Sooooo with all that on board, we FIRST use the chart plotter at all times. BUT, the real jewel in our nav suite is our Yeoman chart plotter with a small GPS connected to it!

Not my photo, but it looks like us!

It lets me plot my position on our paper charts with GPS accuracy, BUT, in the event of a massive EMP, I just carry on with DR after the GPS no longer works!!

In truth, I mostly only use it when we are off shore and out of sight of land. BUT it sure does give me a lot of piece of mind!

Greg

 

[dscribner]

Re: "Inexpensive" Chartplotters - Raymarine, Lowrance, Garmi

MS,

Now what did I tell you about Apple, young man? Hmmm?

If the difference is between having and not, I'll stick with my Android. Comparing it to my Garmin 76c, the Android is more accurate, based on tringulating position at anchor. I don't think I'd trust it for ocean passages but if I were preparing for an ocean passage my pockets would be deeper and dropping $600 on a single use tool might not bother me.

 

[JonnyQuest]

So now that we definitively solved the question of which chart plotter to use , how do y'all mount your chart plotters in small cockpit boats without binnacles to mount to? I know some solutions are:

1. Swing out arm
2. Cut hole in cabin wall and mount through
3. Sumner made a neat bracket that hangs from lifeline
4. ???????? (Your solutions here)

Photos would be nice.

 

[Delezynski]

So now that we definitively solved the question of which chart plotter to use , how do y'all mount your chart plotters in small cockpit boats without binnacles to mount to?

Photos would be nice.

I needed a spray hood to cover the front of the main hatch (we were going blue water). Once in place, this made a perfect "dashboard" for our plotter, radar and cockpit speakers & other stuff.

View from inside the cockpit....
​

The 2 small looking black round items on the middle left are ball mounts where I can attach the plotter and the radar head.With the ball mounts they can be moved around so I get the view I want and they come off easy to store below when I am not there.

View as I was building it

​

You can see all our photos at;
http://www.svguenevere.com/prep/proj/spray/


Greg

 

[Paltherr]

Re: "Inexpensive" Chartplotters - Raymarine, Lowrance, Garmi

Thanks to all who answered. Your posts have given us additional options to think about! We appreciate your expertise, knowledge, and willingness to share.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I'm still curious about the power draw from my laptop. I know Maine thinks I've still got "Old Sparky" in the boat, (don't think I didn't catch that), but I unceremoniously let it slide quietly into the dumpster with little fanfare.

But my laptop charges by a device from Best Buy, the most wondrous chinese store of them all, (hey I like them, they have smart kids), called an 'igreen' or something of that nature. Of course every known substance or object in the damn universe now says either 'green' or has an 'i' attached to it, so I may be confusing it with 'green coal' or something. At least it is not making 110v out of 12v, and then back again, is it? Hell it might, because for the life of me I can not figure out how to make 19 volts out of twelve..

 

[KristinKaye]

We have a car charger for our Dell laptop that charges the 19V battery from 12V. It draws about 2 amps with the battery charged and screen going. If the screen goes off then it draws about 1 amp. Quite a bit more than a tablet where the current draw is milliamps and we have a simple USB charger for that.

The larger screen of the laptop is nice for OpenCPN to do route planning, etc.. But the capability of tablet computers, in my opinion, is fast making laptops obsolete.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Oh no, don't say that. Wife is squalling like a cut dog now for me to get an ipad thingy. I haven't even admitted here on this site yet that she bought the accursed gopro, ooooopss...

 

[WayneH]

Re: "Inexpensive" Chartplotters - Raymarine, Lowrance, Garmi

Chris, just to make it harder to resist the wife, my Admiral and I were cruising through Academy the other day. She found these plastic bags from "No Limits" that completely enclose a smartphone and has a clear screen that allows you to USE your smartphone. She said something about me carrying my phone with me while I kayak fish. THEN she saw the larger ones for Ipads. So we got one for my phone and one for her Ipad.

Just don't go to Academy if you want to resist buying an Ipad for while longer. You've been warned.

 

[KristinKaye]

LOL! I never really got into those fruit computers too much. Our Galaxy Tab2 works pretty good, although getting the 10" screen one instead of the 7" that we got would've probably been nicer as far as a chartplotter goes.