I am obsessed about sailing. If you don't believe me, ask my wife, kids, friends, etc. For me sailing is right up there in order of importance with breathing. When I'm not doing it, I'm thinking about it, reading about it, writing about it. Part of my reading of course is about what makes a really good sailboat. Conventional wisdom about what makes a good sailboat in magazine articles and books says that the terms "really good seaworthy sailboat" and "production sailboat" do not belong in the same sentence--maybe not even in the same paragraph. The cumulative weight of all those comments swayed me to the point that I was thinking "if I'm really serious about this sailing thing, my Hunter 335 is not a serious enough boat for me." This got me looking around at other boats and reading even more stuff about boat design, talking to people, going out on other boats, etc. This has led me to some interesting conclusions which I'll share for what they are worth. I've concluded that my 1992 Hunter 335 is not a boat I'd want to sail to Tonga for a variety of reasons which I'll cover in a minute. I've also concluded that I really don't want to sail to Tonga (or Tahiti, or New Zealand). At the end of the day, I like to be in a secure anchorage, grilling a filet of sockeye salmon off the stern rail with a glass of wine in my hand. When the gales blow and seas are 20 feet or more, I'd rather be reading about sailing than doing it. Having reached the conclusion that I don't want to cross oceans, I've also reached the conclusion that the "really good seaworthy boats" of conventional wisdom have some serious disadvantages for a coastal cruiser like me. A good friend of mine has a pilothouse sloop that is a foot and a half shorter than Shibumi but has a displacement that is 2.5 times as much. Whenenver we talk sailing and I might comment about reefing the main, he will say, " oh 30 knots, that's when my Tern really starts to sit up and take notice." There's a definite condescension that my Hunter is somehow inadequate. What he doesn't say is that in the 10-15 knot winds we normally sail in, his tank is dead in the water and I sail rings around him. If you want to go to sea or to play around here in gales, more displacement is appropriate (obviously in balance with length, sail area etc.) But the price of more displacement is that it either compromises performance or begets more sail area which begets heavier rigging, sometimes bowsprits etc., all of which create work and expense and are major tradeoffs in my opinion. On a recent sailing trip I helped another boater move his Formosa 41 ketch from one slip to another and marvelled at the difficulty he had maneuvering his very heavy boat with a full length keel in close quarters. Sure the full length keel will keep you on track in a cross sea. But if you're not sailing in cross seas, the lack of maneuverability imposed by a design of an unseparated full length keel and rudder are a heavy price to pay when you're going in and out of slips, fuel docks, pump out stations etc. The experience made me appreciate my fin keel and balanced rudder all the more. The wisdom is that the cockpit shouldn't be too big on the serious boat because if you get pooped you don't want to take on too much water. You also need a bridgedeck to help keep water from flooding down the companionway. Well we've been in nine foot waves and are highly unlikely to get pooped in the kind of sailing we do. A bridgedeck (while appropriate for a blue water boat) is a pain in the rear to climb over all the time, and we like our largish cockpit for stretching out and entertaining. Another good friend has a Valiant 40 which I sail with him. The Valiant 40 is a Robert Perry design and a highly successful ocean crosser. My friend has made two voyages to the South Pacific in his. Below decks, he has no more room than our 335. It's much darker and doesn't have the headroom as the profile is lower and the portlites and hatches are smaller in defense against breaking waves. The berths are much smaller and less comfortable so you can wedge into them or use a lee cloth when you're trying to sleep in a lumpy sea. He also feels he can't singlehand even on a daysail. Then there's the cost thing. I paid $58,000 for my Hunter 335 five years ago. I've invested in upgrades, improvements, and maintenance and Shibumi is in really good shape. The serious boats I reallly like that are reasonably new cost $250,000 or more. I've seen others that are in the low 100's, but they are at least 20 years old and in need of a lot of work. So given that I don't want to cross oceans,my view is that a decision to get a "serious" boat would cost me a ton of money for capabilities I don't need at the possible cost of speed, maneuverability, and comfort. What's my purpose here? I'm not trying to rationalize that my boat is perfect. I'm not suggesting that the conventional wisdom regarding blue water boats is wrong. If you're going to cross oceans, you need the strength and design to put up with conditions you can't avoid by either staying home or running into a harbor. What I'm advocating is that intended use is the number one criteria in boat selection. And if you choose to not cross oceans as I have, there is no reason to feel that your coastal cruiser is in any way inadequate for your needs despite what you may read in the sailing press or hear around the marina. At least that's my opinion! Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
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Ayah,....
...as we're prone to say around here when there's nothing else much left to say. Like a lot of things in life, it's a matter of having the right tool for the job and some of the more remote contingencies that could be encountered. If I'm going to start a flower bed outside, I'm not likely going to rent a backhoe or use a spoon fron the kitchen. Obviously, the size of the project will play a role here, but for most uses, the typical yard tools will do. Ergo, different boats for different purposes. Thanks for putting into words so well what intuition tells many of us.
...as we're prone to say around here when there's nothing else much left to say. Like a lot of things in life, it's a matter of having the right tool for the job and some of the more remote contingencies that could be encountered. If I'm going to start a flower bed outside, I'm not likely going to rent a backhoe or use a spoon fron the kitchen. Obviously, the size of the project will play a role here, but for most uses, the typical yard tools will do. Ergo, different boats for different purposes. Thanks for putting into words so well what intuition tells many of us.
Well stated Gary. Similar experience
We too sail one of the "production boats" that at times are the scourage of the elitists. But the other day I had an opportunity to make some interesting comparisons; Had one of the heralded "blue water cruisers" take a transient slip close to me. Helped the gent tie up and we started talking boats. Here I noticed some interesting comparisons: We both had the same Yanmar engines We both had the same Harken hardware We both had the same Raymarine electronics We both had the same F/P Genset We both had the same pumps, heads, sinks, etc. He had about 40% less accomodations below (His boat was same size as mine) I sailed in about 7kts of wind. He doesn't move. Several years back we chartered his exact model boat because we were considering buying one. It was stout, solid, and had all the handling and performance characteristics of a manhole cover. Point is he had a beautiful boat that he paid 175% more than we paid for ours and we were both using them in the same manner. 90% of the equipment on the boats was exactly the same. Coastal cruising doesn't require a battleship. It requires a reasonably stout boat crewed by a reasonably competitent skipper who understands his/her limitations and understands the boat's also. To "over-buy" a boat to add a security cushion to allow for poor judgement is pretty risky. Mother nature isn't that forgiving of fools. We're going to keep on coastal cruising in our coastal cruiser. When it comes time to go to Tonga, we'll buy a Tonga cruiser. Or maybe I'll fly there, enjoy ourselves for two weeks, and then come back and buy that TV for the forward berth to make our coastal cruiser even more comfortable.
We too sail one of the "production boats" that at times are the scourage of the elitists. But the other day I had an opportunity to make some interesting comparisons; Had one of the heralded "blue water cruisers" take a transient slip close to me. Helped the gent tie up and we started talking boats. Here I noticed some interesting comparisons: We both had the same Yanmar engines We both had the same Harken hardware We both had the same Raymarine electronics We both had the same F/P Genset We both had the same pumps, heads, sinks, etc. He had about 40% less accomodations below (His boat was same size as mine) I sailed in about 7kts of wind. He doesn't move. Several years back we chartered his exact model boat because we were considering buying one. It was stout, solid, and had all the handling and performance characteristics of a manhole cover. Point is he had a beautiful boat that he paid 175% more than we paid for ours and we were both using them in the same manner. 90% of the equipment on the boats was exactly the same. Coastal cruising doesn't require a battleship. It requires a reasonably stout boat crewed by a reasonably competitent skipper who understands his/her limitations and understands the boat's also. To "over-buy" a boat to add a security cushion to allow for poor judgement is pretty risky. Mother nature isn't that forgiving of fools. We're going to keep on coastal cruising in our coastal cruiser. When it comes time to go to Tonga, we'll buy a Tonga cruiser. Or maybe I'll fly there, enjoy ourselves for two weeks, and then come back and buy that TV for the forward berth to make our coastal cruiser even more comfortable.
Gary, let me pipe in
The only statement you made that I would dispute is in the last paragraph. (Great post, by the way) I have taken my 'coastal cruiser' to sea and in 50' seas at that. I did a lot of work to her to get her ready but that was liveaboard stuff. Very little had to be done for needed safety. (1986 H34) The boat was perfect, from Brownsville WA to Trinidad. Check my web site, I blow off steam about Antigua in some new picture posts. The heavy weight of a boat is just that, weight. The more of it, the more likely some part of that boat will fail. Coastal boats need to be stronger than ocean boats. Everything is more demanding off coasts than at sea. (on average) And I'm with you, I've been there (sea)and done that. Give me flat water and light fair weather any day.
The only statement you made that I would dispute is in the last paragraph. (Great post, by the way) I have taken my 'coastal cruiser' to sea and in 50' seas at that. I did a lot of work to her to get her ready but that was liveaboard stuff. Very little had to be done for needed safety. (1986 H34) The boat was perfect, from Brownsville WA to Trinidad. Check my web site, I blow off steam about Antigua in some new picture posts. The heavy weight of a boat is just that, weight. The more of it, the more likely some part of that boat will fail. Coastal boats need to be stronger than ocean boats. Everything is more demanding off coasts than at sea. (on average) And I'm with you, I've been there (sea)and done that. Give me flat water and light fair weather any day.
Gary, Good post and good points !
You need to post the exact same post on the other BB websites to see what their comments are. Here you are singing to the choir. Post it here. http://members.sailnet.com/messageboard/index.cfm and especially post it here at the CW BB http://old.cruisingworld.com/forums/genlmesg/index.pl
You need to post the exact same post on the other BB websites to see what their comments are. Here you are singing to the choir. Post it here. http://members.sailnet.com/messageboard/index.cfm and especially post it here at the CW BB http://old.cruisingworld.com/forums/genlmesg/index.pl
What is really required?
We have a 92- Hunter 35.5 and the original owner ran it in the Vic-Maui race and finished respectably. Although we are relatively new to sailing I do dream of going offshore and this would not be our idea of an offshore cruiser. I certainly don't want a Cruising Pig that needs 20 K winds to move but I do feel the added displacement of a boat in the 18-22,000 pounds area provides a more comfortable ride. Do you feel production boats like Hunter are offshore suitable? What modifications do you feel are required to take it offshore? The 1st items I would think about are a deep fin keel versus the wing keel and the rigging looks a little lite to me. Any comments,
We have a 92- Hunter 35.5 and the original owner ran it in the Vic-Maui race and finished respectably. Although we are relatively new to sailing I do dream of going offshore and this would not be our idea of an offshore cruiser. I certainly don't want a Cruising Pig that needs 20 K winds to move but I do feel the added displacement of a boat in the 18-22,000 pounds area provides a more comfortable ride. Do you feel production boats like Hunter are offshore suitable? What modifications do you feel are required to take it offshore? The 1st items I would think about are a deep fin keel versus the wing keel and the rigging looks a little lite to me. Any comments,
Here's more on the same subject...
..from the saltiest sailor/author that you'd care to know, John Kretchmer. http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=jkrets002 And if I were you Gary, I wouldn't bother to post your piece on sailnet or crusing world. Their minds are made up, no sense confusing them with the facts. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
..from the saltiest sailor/author that you'd care to know, John Kretchmer. http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=jkrets002 And if I were you Gary, I wouldn't bother to post your piece on sailnet or crusing world. Their minds are made up, no sense confusing them with the facts. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
it's the fear factor
that drives some to buy bullet proof boats. When you look over the side and see sharks most people don't want to be in the water. My brother had a whale swim under his 28' boat. Then just the sea itself is intimidating. I agree 100% that most people will be happier with a fast coastal cruiser. BUT if I had the money a Pacific Seacraft 37 would be in my slip. A lot of sailing is the dreaming!!!! Knowing that you could just keep sailing out of the bay until.... you reach nirvana. (haven't found it on the charts yet) Practically most people don't need a coastal cruiser... They have a 35' cruiser that they daysail. I've met many that never overnight and their boat has refrigeration ,stove etc etc.. Probably a lively daysailor would be their best boat. Keep it in the driveway and forget slips and bottom paint. Then there are the docksitters/liveaboards that never sail except from one marina to another every other year. What they need is a houseboat. That's the great thing about america you can have whatever you can afford!!!!
that drives some to buy bullet proof boats. When you look over the side and see sharks most people don't want to be in the water. My brother had a whale swim under his 28' boat. Then just the sea itself is intimidating. I agree 100% that most people will be happier with a fast coastal cruiser. BUT if I had the money a Pacific Seacraft 37 would be in my slip. A lot of sailing is the dreaming!!!! Knowing that you could just keep sailing out of the bay until.... you reach nirvana. (haven't found it on the charts yet) Practically most people don't need a coastal cruiser... They have a 35' cruiser that they daysail. I've met many that never overnight and their boat has refrigeration ,stove etc etc.. Probably a lively daysailor would be their best boat. Keep it in the driveway and forget slips and bottom paint. Then there are the docksitters/liveaboards that never sail except from one marina to another every other year. What they need is a houseboat. That's the great thing about america you can have whatever you can afford!!!!
see Hiscock's book
Someone contemplating getting an 'ideal' cruising boat might like to read a book by Eric Hiscock called "Cruising Under Sail - incorporating voyaging under sail". There's another book I have at home called something like "choosing a cruising sailboat" that I got at Barnes & Noble last year which asks reader to take a quiz to reveal exactly what type of sailing they really do, before it goes into the different considerations that go into choosing a boat best-suited to their purpose.
Someone contemplating getting an 'ideal' cruising boat might like to read a book by Eric Hiscock called "Cruising Under Sail - incorporating voyaging under sail". There's another book I have at home called something like "choosing a cruising sailboat" that I got at Barnes & Noble last year which asks reader to take a quiz to reveal exactly what type of sailing they really do, before it goes into the different considerations that go into choosing a boat best-suited to their purpose.
scratching my head?
if you need a book to figure out exactly what kind of sailing you do so you can figure out what type of boat you need; would lead me to believe you are probally better off on the couch reading than sailing.
no offense, IMHO!
if you need a book to figure out exactly what kind of sailing you do so you can figure out what type of boat you need; would lead me to believe you are probally better off on the couch reading than sailing.
no offense, IMHO!self taught sailer
Hi Dan ; Many or most of us are self taught sailers. Without books to teach me about navigation etc I would be totally lost. Same thing about boat design. A friend did the classic daysailer to world cruiser transition. He lost a lot of money on a boat he didn't need. He should have read a lot and bought an overnighter like a Catalina 22. He could have bought the C 22 for what it cost to replace his volvo diesel. My brother went straight from my Laser to a 28 foot Buccaneer which was trash. I wish my Dad had been an old salt that took me sailing and taught all I needed to know... Unfortunately I was the first in my family to sail.
Hi Dan ; Many or most of us are self taught sailers. Without books to teach me about navigation etc I would be totally lost. Same thing about boat design. A friend did the classic daysailer to world cruiser transition. He lost a lot of money on a boat he didn't need. He should have read a lot and bought an overnighter like a Catalina 22. He could have bought the C 22 for what it cost to replace his volvo diesel. My brother went straight from my Laser to a 28 foot Buccaneer which was trash. I wish my Dad had been an old salt that took me sailing and taught all I needed to know... Unfortunately I was the first in my family to sail.
Let's look at who writes the "books"
Hi, all. We all have in our sailing libraries books such as Sailing in Serafyn by the Pardys.When someone writes an exciting sailing adventure book about hairraising adventures without an engine on Narragansett Bay or on Lake Champlain in a Hunter Legend, maybe we can all get equal time. Until then, let's all enjoy our secret pleasure which entails sailing circles around Island Packets, Pacific Seacrafts, Cabo Ricos, etc. Alice C. Hunter 37.5 Arcadia Lake Champlain
Hi, all. We all have in our sailing libraries books such as Sailing in Serafyn by the Pardys.When someone writes an exciting sailing adventure book about hairraising adventures without an engine on Narragansett Bay or on Lake Champlain in a Hunter Legend, maybe we can all get equal time. Until then, let's all enjoy our secret pleasure which entails sailing circles around Island Packets, Pacific Seacrafts, Cabo Ricos, etc. Alice C. Hunter 37.5 Arcadia Lake Champlain
tom, Im self taught also
and I learned by reading a book and getting out there and doing. obviously I have learned alot about sailing since by reading. my comment was aimed at reading a book to find out what type of sailor you are. if you are a sailor, then you know what kind of sailor you are! sure, read, compare, look around, ask questions but, you ought to know what kind of sailor you are, if you are one!
and I learned by reading a book and getting out there and doing. obviously I have learned alot about sailing since by reading. my comment was aimed at reading a book to find out what type of sailor you are. if you are a sailor, then you know what kind of sailor you are! sure, read, compare, look around, ask questions but, you ought to know what kind of sailor you are, if you are one!
Among cruisers, many think of the Pardeys as
Lynn and Larry Perfect, and not in a polite way. I'm one of them. But I buy their books so I can pick and choose. Mostly I don't choose. I like the modern comforts.
Lynn and Larry Perfect, and not in a polite way. I'm one of them. But I buy their books so I can pick and choose. Mostly I don't choose. I like the modern comforts.
Great Post Gary
Gary your post was indeed an epiphany for me. I own a Watkins 27 and am always looking at other boats. My wife and I are self taught and bought our boat before we even knew how to sail. We have learned just by doing and reading and have loved every minute! I too am a sailing junkie when I am not doing it I am thinking about it. I have done a lot of reading and talking to people about boats and I get a lot of advice not to look at this type of boat or that type of boat. Your post really made me see why I get so many different opinions. Us coastal cruisers can be happy with our lighter smaller boats that are not meant to be sailed to Tonga. I love my boat and fortunately she is perfect for what I ask her to do.
Gary your post was indeed an epiphany for me. I own a Watkins 27 and am always looking at other boats. My wife and I are self taught and bought our boat before we even knew how to sail. We have learned just by doing and reading and have loved every minute! I too am a sailing junkie when I am not doing it I am thinking about it. I have done a lot of reading and talking to people about boats and I get a lot of advice not to look at this type of boat or that type of boat. Your post really made me see why I get so many different opinions. Us coastal cruisers can be happy with our lighter smaller boats that are not meant to be sailed to Tonga. I love my boat and fortunately she is perfect for what I ask her to do.
Warren Luhrs is ahead of you Gary!
BTW Uffa Fox, redoubtable UK designer of fast sailing craft during the 1930s to 1950s once said "Weight is only useful in a road roller"!
BTW Uffa Fox, redoubtable UK designer of fast sailing craft during the 1930s to 1950s once said "Weight is only useful in a road roller"!
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