In-mast sail and no back stays???

[Ctskip]

So I'm looking into buying a new boat. I have been looking at the big three, Hunter, Beneteau and Catalina. I have always loved the Hunter. I have for years. The Bennie, although beautiful, was always out of my price range. Now I have looked at a 350 Catalina today. While looking at these new boats the last three weeks, I have learned much about in-mast sails and roller boom sails. Roller boom seems to be the way to go from what I can see and from what I have heard.
It seems from what I have heard is, the in-mast requires much maintenance and once the sail gets blown out a bit (used), it becomes a tad testy rolling it in and out of the mast. I don't know this to be true, but it is what I have heard from sales men and was wondering if anyone out there has had any problems associated with a well used sail and the in-mast roller? I'm not sure they have been out long enough to have this well used problem. It just made sense to me. So I kind of shrugged my shoulders and listened some more. Those with in-mast rollers, how do you like them and how used are they? Can you foresee any problems with a well used sail? My ears are always open as is my mind.

Another tidbit I heard was about Hunters not having a back stay and that's not good for off shore passage. ??? any thoughts? Have there been problems with the Hunter not having a back stay? I have seen solid stabilizer bars that help stabilize the mast because of the lack of a back stay. Anything to this? That concept to me, seems like an after thought. Hunter owners please feel free to chime in.
Thanks.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[Les]

Well, you've asked a number of questions--I'm not sure I can answer them all. As background, I had a 1999 Hunter 380 with the B and R rig (no backstay) with roller furling main and jib for nine years which we traded in on a 2009 Hunter 27 which we've had for a year with B and R rig and roller furling main and jib. We had no problems essentially with the Hunter 380 and we sailed it on a number of long cruises here in the northwest.

We're still fine tuning the H27. The main doesn't come out as easily as I like but the dealer is looking at putting in a new forestay to straighten the mast. I think that will work

Brion Toss, a well know rigger here in the northwest who tuned my 380 has said that the B and R rig is one of the strongest rigs available and the one he would take around the world. Somewhere on this web site is an account of a skipper who took a Hunter 49 around the world--I believe the same rig. But others can tell you more.

The Hunter is a good boat--it will take you any wheres you want.

 

[Franklin]

Any problems with furling the main has to do with how the sail is cut and how it was last furled (most problems are when trying un-furl the sail). The mast maker doesn't make the sail, so each has a different experience with a furling sail as there are many sail makers. I had a couple of problems un-furling when not furling it up last tight and with the boom in the right position in 4 years of use. With my new sail I've had many problems un-furling but believe I now have figured it out...this sail needs to be rolled up loosely so always have boat heading into the wind.

As for the lack of backstay, it is a good thing. The rig is designed to provide support in the middle of the mast from the "pumping" motion that can break a mast when sailing with headsail only. The B&R rig provides the most support in the middle of the mast of any rig and that's where most break, so those who understand the design will tell you it's the strongest design out there. Those support bars you see are not there to support the mast, they are there to provide support to the deck/hull where one of the stays connect (think exactly opposite of how it looks).

There are a lot of people who don't understand what Hunter does so they are afraid of them so you will hear all kinds of false information. Good thing you looking to verify the false info instead of just passing it on like most do.

 

[Todd Smith]

If you see how far back the spreaders are swept on a Hunter, you won't worry about the lack of backstay.

I did a delivery this spring of a Hunter 46 from South Carolina to Rhode Island. We had winds up to 42 knots or so. No problem with the strength of the rig. But the boat needed a lot more sail area for the light wind downwind sailing that was about 1/3 of the trip.

 

[Ralph18422]

In mast is easy

My first experience with in-mast was on a new Hunter 38. We loved it. When it came time to buy Hunter 38, Catalina 350 Or Beneteau 373 we chose the Catalina 350. We purchased with the inmast. The ease of use from the cockpit is wonderful. We have sailed her in 25+knots without worries. The infinite reefing makes it easy to adjust the sails to the conditions. No maintenance required (we are on freshwater lake, you may need to wash down the bearings with fresh water if you sail in salt water same as roller furling jib) I take down the mast myself and restep it in the spring. Very straight forward.

 

[dilligaf368]

In Mast furling, back stays

I own a 2002 Hunter 326 AND 2005 Jeanneau DS49 both have in-mast furling, Never have had any problem on either boat. The Hunter has the B&R rig and I have never had any worries, I've had both boats in 30+ winds and confused seas neither one had issues.
There is an issue with both boats and that is down wind. Both will point high but downwind I tack. It's never been much of an issue though.
I am currently on a 6 month cruise from Seattle to Alaska and back and feel comfortable on either boat. (the Jeanneau DS49 is faster, by a mile due to the water length)

 

[Ctskip]

Thank you for the opinions. I really was wondering about reefing and knowing how my jib tightens up ,I was a bit concerned about the main also tightening up. I still wonder what the furler systems would be with a worn sail, being somewhat loose inside the mast.

Does it,
Is there a problem going downwind with the in-mast? Are you with verticle battens or without?

Todd,
I was also wondering about a genoa or a spinnaker with no backstay? Just the thought of it makes me shiver me timbers.

Franklin,
I have always researched and analized things to death before I make a move on just about anything. I have always felt the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Thanks all

Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[Franklin]

I guess I should explain my claim that it provides the most support in the middle of the mast.

When sailing on headsail alone, especially masthead rigs with big 150 genoas, the constant yanking of the headsail on the top of the mast can cause a vibration down the mast. Some call this pumping and it goes forward, backwards, not side to side. Most rigs only provide support side to side but you will see some blue water boats with the middle stays angled a little forward and backwards but not much but I guess it's better than nothing. This is the reason many will say to never sail with just the headsail alone.

On the B&R rigs, there are three advantages. 1) the rig is a fractional rig so the headsail is much smaller and shouldn't cause as much pumping (however, I'd reached almost hull speed with just the jib out so I'm not sure that holds water ). 2) As the headsail pulls forward on the mast, it tightens the two stays. Those stays, when they tighten, push forward on the mast in the middle via the spreaders. There are also stays connected to the mast where the stays are at that are countering that push by pulling backwards. This is where the stabilization comes from that most rigs do not have and none has it as much as the B&R rig. Since most masts break in the middle, this is very important. 3) The three stay approach give it a 120 degree angle between each stay and therefore, two stays are always providing support to the mast.

I would say though that the B&R rig needs the rig tuned just right for all this to work as designed. So that is the support to my claim that the B&R rig is the most stable rig out there.

 

[Franklin]

It's not the in-mast furling that makes them bad going downwind, it's the swept back spreaders (that is the downside to the B&R rig). To get good downwind speed in light to medium wind, you will need an Asymeterical spinacker and the rig is basically designed for that as a requirement. The swept back spreaders limit how much you can let the boom out.

Don't fear flying the spin as it connects to the mast right where the two stays also connect and so it's supported by them and is very stable.

 

[Ctskip]

From what I have read and now you have inadvertently reinforced it. Is that the B&R rig must be fine tuned and should be done by specialists. If this is true, then in no time at all, most B&R rigs will be stretched and out of tune in no time flat. It might be great once fine tuned, but how many 5 yr old B&R rigs are fine tuned every year, if not every other year? How often does this tune up last? Doesn't it require someone to actually climb the mast to tune the center spreaders? With someone hanging on the mast wouldn't that throw off any tuning of the center spreaders? Or must the mast be removed and tuned, then replaced?
Or am I barking up the wrong mast? This tune up seems like a expense that never stops. On a regular rig setup, side to side and fore to aft. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't require any center stay tunings which seem to a crucial part of the B&R set-up. Am I right or wrong? Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I appreciate it.

I see the downwind problem now , with the spreaders swept back 30 degrees, they will rub the sail. Yes?
Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[Todd Smith]

Spinnaker

Todd,
I was also wondering about a genoa or a spinnaker with no backstay? Just the thought of it makes me shiver me timbers.

If it was my boat, I would replace the furling main with a big square top fully battened sail. And add a big asymetrical spinnaker. I might need to add running backstays only for when the spinnaker was up. I would consult a pro rigger and sailmaker to see if that was really needed. But all that means that I would probably buy a different boat in the first place.

I _really_ don't like to run the motor.

Todd

 

[seadaddler]

2007 Hunter

My 07 Hunter-36 has in mast and is a dream to sail especially when single handed,its so easy to handle with the 110 jib and in mast.
I sailed my H-36 mostly off shore from Montauk,NY to North Carolina and back out off shore to Fort Pierce Florida out on the ocean always 100 NM off shore.
We had to go into NC to try and repair the Autopilot,we were getting hit with some pretty big confusing waves and the Autopilot working 24/7 just could not take the punishment and stopped working.
Maybe a full keel heavier blue water boats autopilot might have done better but other than that the boat diid very well offshore,its a shoal keel H-36 so 3 days out on the ocean and we had to hand steer with 4 crew each taking turns at the helm 24/7 offshore,with going into NC it took 9 days to get to Fort Pierce,Florida.
Raymarine did replace the wheel part of the auto and with different crew we sailed her from Fort Pierce around the keys to Punta Gorda in 4 days.
Not bad for a Hunter that some people say is not a very good sailboat,they have no clue,the B&R is rated to be one of the strongest by most.
Nick

 

[SamLust]

The B & R rig's strength is it'd inherent strength with a smaller, lighter mast section. If you follow the tuning instructions from Selden the rig is easier to tune than a double lower masthead rig. This comes from experience. I have both.

Sam

 

[John]

My 1998 C 36 has in-mast main furling. We've had it two years, and I don't know how much it was used by the previous two owners. The sail seems in pretty good shape, but clearly it's not a new sail. We have no problems getting the furler to function now. When we bought it, it was very stiff both raising and lowering it, and this got progressively worse. I replaced the car on the boom, which helped for a time. It turned out the problem was the in-haul line had swelled up from salt and was rubbing on the housing inside the furling drum. Once I replaced that, it was easy to use. I also find it is easy to service it.

One issue: It seems to me that our boat is a bit slow. I'm thinking this is related to the concave cut of the main sail, meaning it has less surface area. If I were to get an in-mast furling boat new, I'd get one with the tall mast.

Another point is that from what I'm told, the mast is basically one mast inside another. This makes it much stronger, or so I'm told.

Overall, my suspicion is that the in-boom furlers are better, but I also understand that they cost more.

 

[Franklin]

I don't think wire stretching is an issue.

 

[Ctskip]

Franklin,
So what you are saying is that once the center spreaders are tuned, they can be left alone and they be will be good to go. Visual inspection is all thats required after the initial tune-up. I'm having a hard time accepting that.
How would the average ( if we can be considered average) sailor tune his center spreaders? I hope I'm using the proper names for this tuning of the spreaders.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[Franklin]

Basically, I think wihat mostly happens with B&R rigs is a professional rigs it and checks up on it a few times that first season and then it's left alone for many many years until it gets to the point where the sailor is worried about it's strength and hires a rigger to come out and inspect it. I know I've never "tuned" my rig but did have it inspected last year and they didn't find anything wrong except light rust in a couple of places.

I had to take off some of the stays and put them back on so I want to have it tuned again but I think it's pretty close to what it was before.

Summary: Don't sweat the B&R rig. It's not weak, it's not a high maintanence rig, and it can go downwind fairly well with a spinacker. The B&R rig is something I WANT on any boat that I own.