In-mast pros and cons

seadaddler · Aug 7, 2009

Old School

When I sailed my H-36 from Montauk,NY to Florida all off shore two of my old time crew members told me they would never own in mast and really did not think much of my Hunter either.
But not really knowing any thing about either,after a few days out in the ocean with some pretty nasty weather and wind they really like the fact of never having to leave the cockpit to reef,especially at night in the pitch black dark, staying in the cockpit was really a nice thing and at the end of the trip all told me that they felt my Hunter did a terrific job as a offshore boat.
They really thought that we would have had to go inside when the weather got bad,but we did not and the boat did very well.
Nick

Scott B · Sep 2, 2009

Sorry I'm late to this one..... but you started off with I'm open to this... but you seem set in more to argue against the inmast furling..... blah, blah, blah..... try it out on a boat first then give us your opinion based on fact, not on hearsay......

John · Sep 2, 2009

Additional experience

Ctskip said:
Scott,
I don't mean to sound as if I'm against it. I'm always open for stories. I have heard both positive and negative sides of this matter. The positive side is there is much to be learned about the proper dousing and it's deployment depends on the proper dousing. Providing the proper steps are taken in it's dousing, for me it is easier than hoisting the main the old fashioned way. The flip side is, the mess one can get into when it does jamb, half in and half out. There doesn't seem to be a good outcome should it get put away improperly. For me, personally, it sounds to be a bit on the finicky side. For me to just head into the wind and drop the main, then bungee it, sounds like a twelve year old can do it. I know a twelve year old can do it. I guess I'm just old school when it comes to my sail deployment. I'll stick to the tried and true. Thank you.
What I have noticed was that once a sail gets out of shape,(used, not abused) ( not blown out) it becomes a problem waiting to happen. It doesn't become a question of if, but when, it will jamb.
I personally don't feel there has been enough miles under the in-mast system for it to rear it's head for the problems that will be created by the system. We will find examples of those who swear by them, along with examples of those who don't. Time will tell. I do like the furling jib though. Not having to carry it on deck is what I'm talking about. Having to take off the mainsail cover gives me time to spend inspecting various parts that might just get overlooked by not having to walk along the boom with the in-mast.

I have sailed the in-mast with vertical battens, along with the in-boom horizontal battens. Not in all weather conditions either. Difference? I can't say I noticed any different sailing characteristics between the two. I'm not that into the technical aspects of sailing. Both systems, in-mast and in-boom required forethought, which sometimes I am in short supply of while underway. I know I can drop my main at any time, in any point of sail now, without any forethought, under any circumstances and still be in control of the vessel, I can regroup later. I'd be afraid to try that with an in-mast system. I'd be afraid to attempt it. I guess it's boils down to what one becomes accustom to.
I just thought I'd put the question out there and see what those here on this site have to say about it. Thanks all for your input.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

I commented before on this issue. Up until recently, I said I wasn't that crazy about in-mast furling (which is what our boat has - it came with it). It's not an issue of ease of use or potential problems; simply that I think a boat sails a fair bit better with a regular main. I recently had the following experiences after we replaced the mast:

1) I had to raise the main inside the mast. I'm not in terrible shape by any means, but I'll tell you: raising the main on a 36' boat was quite a chore and as I get older it would be far more than I could handle. As it is, I doubt most women could handle it.

2)The sail was furled incorrectly by the guy who rigged the boat and it caught as we unfurled it. All I did was go up on the foredeck, push some of the overlap back in the slot, have my wife partially furl the main back in the mast, unfurl it part way, then repeat this process a couple of times. This was certainly far easier, and probably less time consuming, than raising it.

So I stick by my original point: If your priority is getting maximum efficiency out of your sails, then an in-mast furler is probably not for you. If your priority is ease of sailing, the an in-mast furler would probably please you, at least on a larger boat.

One last point: If I had a larger boat without in-mast furling, I'd definitely look into getting a electric winch for the main halyard.

Stu Jackson · Sep 2, 2009

The only reason I distrust electric winches is that you can't FEEL if anything is binding. The force could break something.

Other than that, John, I concur. However our C34, about the same as your C36, is relatively easy to raise from the mast. Unless you have new ball bearing sheaves on every single block that the halyard goes through, it is a bear to raise from the cockpit. Some of us have installed cleats and cam cleats on the mast for singlehanding ease of raising.

Buck420 · Sep 3, 2009

Stu Jackson said:
The only reason I distrust electric winches is that you can't FEEL if anything is binding. The force could break something.

I have to disagree w/ you Stu. I've had an electric sheet winch on my 420 since it was commissioned 8 years ago.
You can FEEL the winch load down when it begins to bind. I have never broken anything using it and don't consider your concern to be a problem. On the other hand, the ease that the electric winch provides for trimming the sheets, furling the jib, raising the dingy up under the davids, etc., is such that, I, personally, would never want to own or sail a boat w/o one.

RE, roller furling main... I've also been using one of those for the past 8 years... I totally agree w/ John and others... IMHO, for a cruiser, their ease and convenience far outweigh the loss of sail performance ...
But, ... to each his own ... as my Granddaddy used to say...
"whatever floats your boat, son"

Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi · Sep 3, 2009

I have had both. My 98 H260 had standard main. I was 50 when I bought it and I struggled over the open companionway getting it down, sail ties on and the cover. I would come in the marina completely drenched from the experience. I have the roller furler main on my 03 H356 and have had a couple of times it was agravating to get the sail out. Given the hassle of the standard versus the roller furler, I'll take the roller furler hands down. I'm 62 now, don't worry about bleeding every tenth of a knot out of the sail and like the convenience of not leaving the cockpit. I also have a full bimini, dodger and complete to a full enclosure during the cool sailing weather. I am a cruiser, not a racer.

The fastest point of downwind sailing is a broad reach, but that is more a function of the B&R than the furling main. I did sail wing on wing, a March day, 30 knots out of the north-northwest for 40 miles and it was one of the best sails I have ever had on Kentucky Lake! The wind was pretty constant and I was the only boat out there. It was 40 degrees and sunny. I had the enclosure on and the solar heat generated from the enclosure and heat from below by running my HVAC on genset made it a very pleasant day. I had on a light sweatshirt and was very comfortable. In light air, wing on wing is not much fun, but in stiff winds, it can be a ball!

Make my vote roller furling main.

Scott B · Sep 3, 2009

Ctskip said:
Scott,
I don't mean to sound as if I'm against it. I'm always open for stories. I have heard both positive and negative sides of this matter. The positive side is there is much to be learned about the proper dousing and it's deployment depends on the proper dousing. Providing the proper steps are taken in it's dousing, for me it is easier than hoisting the main the old fashioned way. The flip side is, the mess one can get into when it does jamb, half in and half out. There doesn't seem to be a good outcome should it get put away improperly. For me, personally, it sounds to be a bit on the finicky side. For me to just head into the wind and drop the main, then bungee it, sounds like a twelve year old can do it. I know a twelve year old can do it. I guess I'm just old school when it comes to my sail deployment. I'll stick to the tried and true. Thank you.
What I have noticed was that once a sail gets out of shape,(used, not abused) ( not blown out) it becomes a problem waiting to happen. It doesn't become a question of if, but when, it will jamb.
I personally don't feel there has been enough miles under the in-mast system for it to rear it's head for the problems that will be created by the system. We will find examples of those who swear by them, along with examples of those who don't. Time will tell. I do like the furling jib though. Not having to carry it on deck is what I'm talking about. Having to take off the mainsail cover gives me time to spend inspecting various parts that might just get overlooked by not having to walk along the boom with the in-mast.

I have sailed the in-mast with vertical battens, along with the in-boom horizontal battens. Not in all weather conditions either. Difference? I can't say I noticed any different sailing characteristics between the two. I'm not that into the technical aspects of sailing. Both systems, in-mast and in-boom required forethought, which sometimes I am in short supply of while underway. I know I can drop my main at any time, in any point of sail now, without any forethought, under any circumstances and still be in control of the vessel, I can regroup later. I'd be afraid to try that with an in-mast system. I'd be afraid to attempt it. I guess it's boils down to what one becomes accustom to.
I just thought I'd put the question out there and see what those here on this site have to say about it. Thanks all for your input.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

In-mast furling has been discussed on here ad infinitum.... some like it, some don't. We all know, just like anchors, you're not going to get a concensus. We can argue technique, advantages of in-mast, disadvantages, metchods of unjamming and you'll get thousands of opinion.

I don't understand the jist of your post except to stir up controversy. You started out by saying you wanted to look into the pros and cons, but then went on to dismiss the in-mast furling and later saying it was too finicky. It seemed to me you were looking to stir things up rather than trying to discuss or look into purchasing, as you've already made up your mind. Everything you've stated is more of a summary of all the posts in the past for and against.

Stu Jackson · Sep 3, 2009

Buck420 said:
Stu Jackson said:

The only reason I distrust electric winches is that you can't FEEL if anything is binding. The force could break something.

I have to disagree w/ you Stu. I've had an electric sheet winch on my 420 since it was commissioned 8 years ago.
You can FEEL the winch load down when it begins to bind. I have never broken anything using it and don't consider your concern to be a problem. On the other hand, the ease that the electric winch provides

Click to expand

Buck,

That's very good feedback. Could you please explain a little bit more as just HOW you get that "feel?" Thanks.

Scott B · Sep 3, 2009

Ctskip said:
Scott,
It would seem to me that you are the one "stirring" things up. I was looking for a discussion and I got one. End of story. When I started the discussion I had never tried them, now I have, with the discussion long over. And now you POP UP, late to the discussion, with paddle in hand, ready to stir.
You say,
_________________________________________________________________________
"Sorry I'm late to this one..... but you started off with I'm open to this... but you seem set in more to argue against the inmast furling..... blah, blah, blah..... try it out on a boat first then give us your opinion based on fact, not on hearsay"
____________________________________________________________
Having now tested the items, I now mention my take on them. I was looking for a discussion. I got one, thank you. Whats wrong with that? Am I not suppose to do that? This is a forum isn't it? Is it not open for discussion? Can I not look and seek opinions and offer mine?
Your words again_______________________________________________________________________
"In-mast furling has been discussed on here ad infinitum.... some like it, some don't. We all know, just like anchors, you're not going to get a concensus. We can argue technique, advantages of in-mast, disadvantages, metchods of unjamming and you'll get thousands of opinion.

I don't understand the jist of your post except to stir up controversy. You started out by saying you wanted to look into the pros and cons, but then went on to dismiss the in-mast furling and later saying it was too finicky. It seemed to me you were looking to stir things up rather than trying to discuss or look into purchasing, as you've already made up your mind. Everything you've stated is more of a summary of all the posts in the past for and against."
_______________________________________________"
It seems to me that you are the one being controversial here, not me. Thanks for your opinion. I'll put it with all the others.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

I was late to this post being on holidays.

I have to look into this somewhat "new" technology in sailing. There's not a lot of experience with these units, never mind well worn main sails out there. I have come up with the conclusion, reading about the nightmares of the in-mast main becoming jammed and if it's not done just so

Sorry, but you started off with wanting to look into in-mast then went on to say you have come to a conclusion. If I misinterpreted, my mistake. I didn't understand what you were looking for in the original post, except to discount in-mast furling.

Maine Sail · Sep 3, 2009

Ctskip said:
This is what I have to say about the taste of the pot.... If you don't like it, please remove your spoon from the pot and stick it in your mouth. Thank you.

At this point I must call into question your moderating skills, not to mention your spelling and communication skills.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

CT,

After reading this post I don't find Scott's moderation in question at all. You might want to tone down your approach in the public forums. This is not the war room and your post was, at least as I read it, an attempt at stirring the pot..

As for in mast furlers I would own one again in a heart beat. The pro's for me far outweighed the cons. I don't race my boat and would love a furling main again. I had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA issues with my in mast furler, and thought I don't own one currently, I think the hype about how difficult they are is way over blown and 99.9% user error. They are not rocket science and nowhere near as finicky as you have made them out to be. 20 seconds in 20 seconds out reefing was easy as pie..

Phil Herring · Sep 3, 2009

I recall that there some jamming issues with the technology when it was brand new, but as easy as they are now I'd have one.

I spent a summer sailing in SF Bay, where I never left the dock without at least one reef. It would have been fantastic to have there.

Buck420 · Sep 3, 2009

Stu Jackson said:
Buck420 said:

Buck,

That's very good feedback. Could you please explain a little bit more as just HOW you get that "feel?" Thanks.

Click to expand

OK, Stu, you kinda got me ...
Actually, I should have said you can HEAR it load down, (and FEEL it in your soul)
Mine is a Lewmar PS2, which they no longer make. The motor is a bit underpowered and under heavy load (like bringing in a jib sheet upwind w/ 20+ kts of wind), the winch will "grind" almost to a halt (sorta like me under the same load), or the breaker will trip.
So, your concern may be well founded w/ more powerful sheet winches.
Having said that, just because they MIGHT be able to create a problem should still not be a reason to forgo having (an) electric sheet winch. A foolish operator can ruin almost anything w/ improper use.

In-mast pros and cons

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