In mast furling

[kristin boyce]

Don, I am in the process of trying to absorb all of the terrific information that is contained in your book. It is really great, and makes me realize how little I know about the correct way to trim sails. My question is, when dealing with in mast furling, are there major differences in how you would go about trying to achieve correct sail trim? I have searched the archives to see if this question has been covered but was unable to find anything that relates specifically to this topic. (most everything I found was in regard to the convenience of reefing furling sails) Any help you could give me would be most appreciated.P.S. We're sailing a new H41 DS if this information is of any importance in trying to respond to my question.

 

[Broke sailor SV Marcell]

What book?

What book is this? Is this book geared towards Hunter Boats? After sailing J Boats I find it challenging trying to come up with the right trim using the B&R rig, which by the way what does B&R stand for?

 

[Bill Bell]

Furling Main Controls

B&R Rig...B & R are the initials of a couple of very smart Norwegian guys named Bergstrom and Ridder. Lars Bergstrom was an aircraft engineer. He and Ridder are behind the design of the sailboat mast rig designs known as B & R rigs. He is known also for a device most folks have on top of their mast, the apparent wind indicator or Windex(R). Furling Main Sail Controls...Halyard .Out haul.Vang.Leach Line.Traveler.Sheet.Just adjust as you would with a conventional main. All that is missing is a little roach and the horizonal battens.

 

[RichH]

Bill--

So how do you locate the draft by halyard tension, especially when the sail is just partly furled? or do you just reef/furl further to eliminate the effects of the adverse shape?What do you do with all that excess draft when the sail is furled down beyond 70%? ... or again do you just reef further than needed and suffer the speed/power reduction?

 

[Don Guillette]

Broke sailor: The book he is refering to is the The Sail Trim Users Guide and it's companion, the The Sail Trim Chart. Both are available thru the ships store on this site. It is only $33.50 for both, which includes shipping and handling, so it won't brake you too much!!The principles of sail trim apply to masthead or fractional rigs. It does not matter what you have it is all the same.

 

[Don Guillette]

Kristin Boyce: Thank you for buying my book. The reason that there is not much written is because the setup is not that common but is becoming increasingly more popular. It is an expensive option - way beyond my pocket book.The problem with in mast or boom furling is you lose a little adjustment ability because it has to be that way or you could not roll it up, but from a cruising standpoint I don't see it as a big deal. Boom furling gives a bit more improvement over in mast.A short while ago I sailed for the first time on a Hunter with in mast furling. My first thought was it was going to be tough to trim that sail but I was pleasantly surprised. Frankly, I did not notice much difference between it and a conventional setup. I did notice I had to work at it a bit more to get the shape I wanted but not much.

 

[Les Blackwell]

I agree with Bill but not Don

I have used the roller furling main since 1999 after using a tradional rig while racing. Bill, your main sail controls are right on although I think you left two out--the furling line and the topping lift. I hardly use the halyard anymore but I do use the furling line quite a bit. As the wind picks up I start to furl the main without letting go the outhaul. This flattens the main overall. Then I start to drop the traveler to leward. Don, I have to disagree with you about the cost of a roller furling main. I've been told by engineers that it cost about the same to produce a mast for roller furling as it does for a traditional mast. The only reason many builders of boats have not gone to this type of rig is they believe there are buyers who do not want it. Marketing. And it is a myth that you loose sail area in a roller furling main. Just make the mast, hense the sail, taller. As Bergstrom was reportedly to have said, it is just a wing on its side--just make it bigger.

 

[Franklin]

yep...yep....yep

and yep....yep...yep My 376 has more sail area then most boats per displacement, but it has an in mast furling system. I do agree that an in boom furling system is better...I think. I hear it can be hard to raise the sail so that's the downside. The plus side is you can have that roach and battons too giving you even more sail area.Now my mast is 60' 1" with a boom of I think 15'. That's why I have so much sail area. Now there may be a time when I'm trying to go under a bridge of 55' where I may wish I had something different, but so far so good.

 

[JC on Bainbridge]

I am not sold on them yet.

I am a bit leery of furling main, either in mast or boom. In an emergency, you can’t douse the sail quickly. And, if they ever get stuck in a storm, well………. But it is just me though.

 

[Franklin]

Getting stuck

They do get stuck from time to time, but only coming out, not going in, so it really isn't a problem in a storm. The only times I've had problems with it getting stuck is when I've messed with the haylard (I think it was too loose when I furled it).I don't have an in boom furling main but wouldn't mind trying one out someday. From what I understand of the design, it can work exactly like a standard sail. You don't have to furl it when you lower the haylard, so I'm sure you can do anything with it that you can with your sail. Now my in mast sail, I could drop the haylard if the sail was all the way out but it doesn't drop fast like a normal sail does so I don't think I would like to try that in high winds.

 

[Mulf]

JC I disagree...

that you can't douse the sail quickly. In fact, you can almost completely get to bare poles with no bundle of sail on the boom for windage. I have an H410 and it takes less than 60 seconds to go from full sail out to only the last 12" of the tail end of the main peeking out of the mast. I went from a full batten main on my H29.5 to this and would never go back.

 

[Rick Macdonald]

Stuck

Mulf - 60 seconds sounds like a long time to me!I chartered a Beneteau 411 in the BVI in May. It had in-mast furling that we all hated. I realize an experience of one boat is not enough to pass judgement. There must have been something wrong with this one. It would get stuck when coming out every time unless _I_ was the person holding tension on the outhaul while another person ground the winch to furl the thing up. It seemed like 5 but must have been at least 3 minutes, and we were both knackered by the time it was in. I held the outhaul as absolutely tightly as I could against the winch-grinder, or used the outhaul clutch as an aide. No body else on the boat believed it needed to be that tight. There was only one person on the boat willing to grind the winch that hard. Unless I provided the tension for the other guy to grind, we didn't get enough and it would foul when coming out the next time. We were the only combination of labor that could furl that thing so it would come out again.I remember watching with envy when similar Sunsail Beneteau charters in the anchorages could drop their mains in what seemed like about 5 seconds instead of 5 minutes....RickM...

 

[JC on Bainbridge]

Mulf: you may be right

Since I don't have extensive experience with a furling main, only a few times on other people's boats, so I will have to rely on you and others. I have had 1 time where the furling jib got hung up in a blow, and it was a struggle to get it down.I guess I will just have to spend more time with one, play and live with one for a while.Thanks for your input.

 

[Steve Dion]

and to Rick MacDonald

Rick:I was part of the crew on a CPM out of SF on a Jenneau 43' with in mast furling. When we tried to get the sail out the first time it took about 25-30 min. Of course we blamed it on the crew that had the boat out the previous time. We were very careful to furl it properly that evening.The next morning it was even worse. It took about 35-40 min. It sold me on NEVER-EVER having a boat with an in mast furler. I was alway skeptical about them anyway.Now I want to hear from some that have used in boom furlers. It seems that even if you have a problem , you could get it down and wrapped around the boom.

 

[Randall]

I've got a Beneteau 361 with in mast furling and love it. It's made by Charleston Spar, and I can't imagine a system more easy to use. Mechanically it's not much different than a headsail system. The line you pull the sail out with is also the outhaul, and you furl it with another line. I can flash the main out or in hand over hand (no winch)in seconds with the least amount of hassle you can imagine. No more strenuous that furling a headsail. Just need a bit of winch to set the final draft depth. Never had a problem no matter what the wind level was. If you miss the roach, you can have a sail made with verticle battens to replace it and these seem to work to good effect. All the regular sail controls apply, but I've found that draft control and angle of attack are especially critical to get power from the sail. Basically, shape your genoa the way you want then mirror that shape with the main. Don't sail quite as high as you can, bear off a bit for speed, keep the boat relatively flat, and power up the main as needed. I too would not go back to a "regular" main.

 

[Franklin]

Getting stuck and unstuck

The only way it gets stuck is if you aren't furling it up right. Out of the 30 times this year I've used mine, it's gotten stuck 3 times. The last time, last weekend, I furled it up at the dock after dropping the sail to add telltails. I am sure I didn't have the haylard tight enough. Another requirement is to have the boom slightly raised...on my boat, it's as low as I can get it. A little pressure on the outhaul helps it roll tight, but on mine it usually rolls it too tight so that the last 6" don't go in.My last time out, I rolled it up and didn't get it all in so I tried to furl it again and furl it back but it jammed. Then I tighted the haylard very tight and then furled it again. Still didn't get it all the way in so I figured I would do it again at the dock. When I got to the dock I realized that the haylard broke. Which meant I had to drop the sail. That I noticed that time of unfurling it at the dock with no haylard attached is that the main was supposed to still be jammed half way but it came out very very very smooth. So now that I know that the haylard is suppose to be very tight when furling, I THINK it might help relieving any jams to have the haylard loose when unfurling. If it ever jams on me again I'll let you know.BTW, it only take me about 45 seconds to furl mine.

 

[FlyBri737]

35 to 40 min??

If it was taking me 50 min to fuurl or unfurl my main then I would be turned off as well, but on the other hand I would have most likley quit after a few minutes anyway...After over 4 years of sailing mine hasn't got stuck yet and takes less than 30 second to unfurl and only a minute or so to get in......BrianH380

 

[Marc14857]

In Mast Furling is a Great Option

We have in mast furling on our Hunter 356 and have never had a problem either rolling it out or furling it over the past 2 1/2 seasons. A few points to remember. Per the selden manual We always furl on a stbd tack. This causes the sail to wind up counter clockwise in the mast. We always keep a little pressure on the outhaul to reduce wrinkles. When we unfurl we are also on stbd tack. You need to remember to take up the slack on the furling line as the sail is unfurled by pulling on the outhaul. If you don't take up the slack the furling line has a tendancy to jump off of the mast winch. We can get the sail in or out in under a minute without breaking a sweat. A friend of ours had a problem furling his in mast main on his new Barvaria. We showed him our technique and he has not had a problem since. The in mast main is probably the best option we have on our 356.

 

[Steve Dion]

I know, I know!

Franklin:That is what we thought too. We even tightened the halyard before we stowed it. We kept a lot of tension on the out haul.I think that something must have gone awry with the unit. It is a French boat you know!!!

 

[Franklin]

I got it....

The more I think about it, loosening the haylard when unfurling is exactly what I need to do. On the few times that I have had a jam, it's because as I pull on the outhaul, instead of the sail unfurling, it pulls the whole roll back to the openning. Why does it do that, because of the tention on the bearings from the haylard. I've been putting so much tention on the haylard when I unfurl it that it didn't want to unfurl and therefor would pull on the roll instead of unrolling the roll.So, the 3 times that my sail has jammed, it seems that the real problem isn't that it was rolled up wrong, but that I had too much pressure on the bearings...aka...haylard too tight. Man...breaking the haylard may have been a very good thing for me