I have the in-mast furling option for my new Hunter 320. In retrospect this nice option seems to have been a bad idea... I lost over 100 sq ft. of sail are becuase of the battenless main. In fact, this set up contradicts the whole B & R rig set up with a large roach sail. The question is... To try and fix this "problem", would it be better to get a larger jib (the boat came with a 115%) like a 150% or I heard tale of main sail with some kind of roll-up battens that might give me back some of the lost sail area? Does Doyle make such a beast? I also noticed that Doyle does not have a 150% head sail listed for sale...
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Mast furlerling system
My Catalina 380 came with a in-mast furling system and I love it. Granted I have a 135% jib that feeds it and strong winds on S F Bay. The boat performs well and I have no complaints. I would think that the problem that you have is with your jib. As I remember your boat is fractional rigged? I am positive that a larger jib would give you adequate lift.You may want to check with Hunter and a sail loft for sizing a jib for your boat.....Good luck
My Catalina 380 came with a in-mast furling system and I love it. Granted I have a 135% jib that feeds it and strong winds on S F Bay. The boat performs well and I have no complaints. I would think that the problem that you have is with your jib. As I remember your boat is fractional rigged? I am positive that a larger jib would give you adequate lift.You may want to check with Hunter and a sail loft for sizing a jib for your boat.....Good luck
In-mast furling on a B&R rig
Greg. I have an in-mast system on my Beneteau 40 and love it. However, the boat is masthead rigged with a 155% genoa and equipped with twin backstays. Your rig, if I remeber right, has no backstay and that limits your headsail to about 100% in the small foretriangle of a Hunter. The B&R rig gets its power from a large, roached main. I think someone made a mistake equipping your boat with an in-mast furler. Check with your dealer for a replacement, at their cost.
Greg. I have an in-mast system on my Beneteau 40 and love it. However, the boat is masthead rigged with a 155% genoa and equipped with twin backstays. Your rig, if I remeber right, has no backstay and that limits your headsail to about 100% in the small foretriangle of a Hunter. The B&R rig gets its power from a large, roached main. I think someone made a mistake equipping your boat with an in-mast furler. Check with your dealer for a replacement, at their cost.
Oh Larry...
You said "Check with the dealer for a replacement... at their cost." That's funny. Unfortunately, the inmast furling on Hunters is an option the owners chooses. It's not the dealers fault that a lot of people like this option and that Hunter continues to offer it even though it makes not sense. It is a mistake, but not the dealers. And no Hunter won't be compensating anyone either because it is an option. Even if it were standard the buyer knows what they are getting when they make the purchase.
You said "Check with the dealer for a replacement... at their cost." That's funny. Unfortunately, the inmast furling on Hunters is an option the owners chooses. It's not the dealers fault that a lot of people like this option and that Hunter continues to offer it even though it makes not sense. It is a mistake, but not the dealers. And no Hunter won't be compensating anyone either because it is an option. Even if it were standard the buyer knows what they are getting when they make the purchase.
Easier Reefing
I am getting a new 2001 290 with in-mast furling. After reading all the discussions regarding the pluses and minues of in-mast roller furling I was concened with my desision to also purchase one. Then I thought of the main reason I purchase it, and that is that my admiral hates to heel and when the wind kicks up on our current Hunter 23, she has a death grip on the mainsheet. The in-mast furling will allow me to reef earlier and easier and she will be happier and therefor I will be happier. Yes I will not sail as fast, but you can't have everything
I am getting a new 2001 290 with in-mast furling. After reading all the discussions regarding the pluses and minues of in-mast roller furling I was concened with my desision to also purchase one. Then I thought of the main reason I purchase it, and that is that my admiral hates to heel and when the wind kicks up on our current Hunter 23, she has a death grip on the mainsheet. The in-mast furling will allow me to reef earlier and easier and she will be happier and therefor I will be happier. Yes I will not sail as fast, but you can't have everything
Swing Batten
Greg you face the delemma of many who like the convenience of the smaller headsail and easily handled main. We have the solution to the lack of roach on the Rf main. The most important area on a main is the roach and any you get back is a big improvement in the boats performance. Not to do an add here but check our web page on the swing batten and maybe it is right for you. Adding more genoa is not as good a solution since it will also add handling difficulties and you may not have the proper winch size for the area. If you are going to add area add it were it will do the most good then you don't have to add as much for the same or better benefit Mark
Greg you face the delemma of many who like the convenience of the smaller headsail and easily handled main. We have the solution to the lack of roach on the Rf main. The most important area on a main is the roach and any you get back is a big improvement in the boats performance. Not to do an add here but check our web page on the swing batten and maybe it is right for you. Adding more genoa is not as good a solution since it will also add handling difficulties and you may not have the proper winch size for the area. If you are going to add area add it were it will do the most good then you don't have to add as much for the same or better benefit Mark
Give it a second thought, Kenneth
The 23 is a small, lively daysailer, where crew weight typically provides more righting moment than its shallow ballast. The 290 displaces three times as much. Its ballast weighs more than the 23 displaces. The 290 will feel much more stable than the 23. I think your wife will be more comfortable, regardless of the main you choose. She might even prefer the full main. You likely will go further out, and returning in light airs, will be glad to have more sail area.
The 23 is a small, lively daysailer, where crew weight typically provides more righting moment than its shallow ballast. The 290 displaces three times as much. Its ballast weighs more than the 23 displaces. The 290 will feel much more stable than the 23. I think your wife will be more comfortable, regardless of the main you choose. She might even prefer the full main. You likely will go further out, and returning in light airs, will be glad to have more sail area.
Oh, Justin...
You're funny, too, but I don't think the owner of that Hunter is laughing. Hunter dealers should know what their boats are designed for and not offer sailplans that won't work with them. Too many people buy a boat that is beyond their skill level and rely on the dealer for advice, when all the dealer wants to do is maximize profits. I'd sue their asses off, but that would take years. It might be better to try work out a deal of some kind. Ha-ha.
You're funny, too, but I don't think the owner of that Hunter is laughing. Hunter dealers should know what their boats are designed for and not offer sailplans that won't work with them. Too many people buy a boat that is beyond their skill level and rely on the dealer for advice, when all the dealer wants to do is maximize profits. I'd sue their asses off, but that would take years. It might be better to try work out a deal of some kind. Ha-ha.
But Larry...
I don't know how familiar you are with Hunters, but this is the most common rig configuration sold to customers on boats from 32' on up. It's crazy, but some owners (on this site) swear by it. So how are you going to cut a deal with the dealer on a rig that the majority love. What would you sue for? "My boat is too slow!" That's not a defect, it's a characteristic. You can't sue for something like that. The rig works as designed it's just a poor compromise. Your suggestion of suing and demanding a replacement at no cost are unrealistic, but typical of our litigous society. Relying on a dealer to sell you the best boat for you is unrealistic too. If you don't know enough to purchase the right boat I would suggest you learn or take your chances. By the way, Greg's original post seems to indicate that he thought it was a good option originally. I don't see how the dealer is liable for any compensation in this matter. Hunter either. There is no defect only an oxymoron. I'm sorry, but I think boat buyers are a little more responsible for their actions then you would seem to allow. Based on the facts and your suggestions it would seem an owner should seek damages from a dealer if they purchased the full roach mainsail and then decided it was too fast - the dealer should have sold then the infurling mast. Is that what you're suggesting?
I don't know how familiar you are with Hunters, but this is the most common rig configuration sold to customers on boats from 32' on up. It's crazy, but some owners (on this site) swear by it. So how are you going to cut a deal with the dealer on a rig that the majority love. What would you sue for? "My boat is too slow!" That's not a defect, it's a characteristic. You can't sue for something like that. The rig works as designed it's just a poor compromise. Your suggestion of suing and demanding a replacement at no cost are unrealistic, but typical of our litigous society. Relying on a dealer to sell you the best boat for you is unrealistic too. If you don't know enough to purchase the right boat I would suggest you learn or take your chances. By the way, Greg's original post seems to indicate that he thought it was a good option originally. I don't see how the dealer is liable for any compensation in this matter. Hunter either. There is no defect only an oxymoron. I'm sorry, but I think boat buyers are a little more responsible for their actions then you would seem to allow. Based on the facts and your suggestions it would seem an owner should seek damages from a dealer if they purchased the full roach mainsail and then decided it was too fast - the dealer should have sold then the infurling mast. Is that what you're suggesting?
Gadgets and gillickies.
Reliance on gadgetry, especially on maritime vessels, is anathema to seagoing prudence. It is a process specification rather than a design specification– a reliance on HOW something is used rather than that it IS used. This, sad to say, is typical amongst modern consumers who believe that more equipment means less responsibilitiy for them. We thus have people going to sea who view the LORAN screen like they do a video game and have not the slightest concept of how to get back when (and I do not say IF) the 12VDC fails. In my opinion Hunter has no right selling gadgets to customers who do not understand them or what their lives would be like without them. It is unethical; but it is not illegal. Caveat emptor. But then MY nature is to be didactic– if I were a salesman at Hunter I'd probably talk you out of it by mere virtue of explaining it to you, and then I'd consider what I was able to sell you instead a respectable deal on both sides. But then, my manager would never keep me on long in that capacity! The ugly fact is that if people are going to pay for it, American commerce is going to sell it to them. Unrestrained business need not know any ethical code but that the dollar is king. I do not propose formal controls on business, however; ideally a man's conscience ought to be good enough. Sadly, some guys are okay with not caring about the rest of us. The Stowaway-type furling main has several MAJOR drawbacks in sail shape and so forth, but the biggest nightmare I can think of is its theoretical propensity to electrically fail or mechancially jam under adverse weather conditions, necessitating either that you go forward to the base of the mast and hand-crank the S.O.B. in against the friction of the stalled motor or else take out the serated steak knife and give what's left of the main as a stupidity sacrifice to King Neptune. Of course all of this will have to be done in the really cosy weather conditions that caused the failure, like, let's say, Force Eight over the stern threatening a jibe and 8-10-ft combers flooding the cockpit and shorting out batteries. No thank you! My advice to the rest of us is to learn to handle the main. Slab-reefing is NOT that tough on a 32-ft boat. And keep in mind some truisms: Anything electrical is going to fail. Anything complicated is going to jam. Anything that looks easy is very likely to become difficult under the most adverse imaginable conditions. Labour-saving devices are ultimately going to ask to be paid back, on their terms (not the terms of your MasterCard). Sorry to be the bearer of such unpleasant tidings. Ok, shoot me. J Cherubini II
Reliance on gadgetry, especially on maritime vessels, is anathema to seagoing prudence. It is a process specification rather than a design specification– a reliance on HOW something is used rather than that it IS used. This, sad to say, is typical amongst modern consumers who believe that more equipment means less responsibilitiy for them. We thus have people going to sea who view the LORAN screen like they do a video game and have not the slightest concept of how to get back when (and I do not say IF) the 12VDC fails. In my opinion Hunter has no right selling gadgets to customers who do not understand them or what their lives would be like without them. It is unethical; but it is not illegal. Caveat emptor. But then MY nature is to be didactic– if I were a salesman at Hunter I'd probably talk you out of it by mere virtue of explaining it to you, and then I'd consider what I was able to sell you instead a respectable deal on both sides. But then, my manager would never keep me on long in that capacity! The ugly fact is that if people are going to pay for it, American commerce is going to sell it to them. Unrestrained business need not know any ethical code but that the dollar is king. I do not propose formal controls on business, however; ideally a man's conscience ought to be good enough. Sadly, some guys are okay with not caring about the rest of us. The Stowaway-type furling main has several MAJOR drawbacks in sail shape and so forth, but the biggest nightmare I can think of is its theoretical propensity to electrically fail or mechancially jam under adverse weather conditions, necessitating either that you go forward to the base of the mast and hand-crank the S.O.B. in against the friction of the stalled motor or else take out the serated steak knife and give what's left of the main as a stupidity sacrifice to King Neptune. Of course all of this will have to be done in the really cosy weather conditions that caused the failure, like, let's say, Force Eight over the stern threatening a jibe and 8-10-ft combers flooding the cockpit and shorting out batteries. No thank you! My advice to the rest of us is to learn to handle the main. Slab-reefing is NOT that tough on a 32-ft boat. And keep in mind some truisms: Anything electrical is going to fail. Anything complicated is going to jam. Anything that looks easy is very likely to become difficult under the most adverse imaginable conditions. Labour-saving devices are ultimately going to ask to be paid back, on their terms (not the terms of your MasterCard). Sorry to be the bearer of such unpleasant tidings. Ok, shoot me. J Cherubini II
It was my choice and I'm ok...
Folks, I was more then aware of the pros and cons of the furling choice. I certainly did not pay the extra money without knowing what I was paying for. I kind of resent the implication that I walked blindly in to anything. I do a lot of single-handed/short-handed sailing and this option is a god-send. I have had no problems with the system and I think Selden is a good company. With proper care and feeding, I expect many years of use with thier product. That being said, like many of you, I was simply looking to get back what I had to trade off for this most useful option. I won't be suing anyone or even talking to my dealer other then to thank them (Tidewater in Havre De Grace, MD) for the excellent service. They were very upfront about the ramifications with this choice and the other ones I made. I am new to this, but I have used this great site and other resoources to make the best choices I can and it still seems everything is a trade-off on some level. I accept that with open arms, but it don't mean I won't try to get around the trade-off if I can. Looking around my marina, it seems the in-mast furling is becoming quite popular and I thought someone like Doyle may have cooked up a way to get back some of that roach I lost. From the previous post, it looks like I was right and I intend to hop right over there and check it out. Mark, I heard that some of these furling battens were made with a kind of tape measure type of metal and that there were problems with it after a while. Any insight in to that and do you have a cut for the 320? I guess I will pick that up on the web site... Thank you all for the input. Greg (doesn't watch his GPS like a video game
G.
Folks, I was more then aware of the pros and cons of the furling choice. I certainly did not pay the extra money without knowing what I was paying for. I kind of resent the implication that I walked blindly in to anything. I do a lot of single-handed/short-handed sailing and this option is a god-send. I have had no problems with the system and I think Selden is a good company. With proper care and feeding, I expect many years of use with thier product. That being said, like many of you, I was simply looking to get back what I had to trade off for this most useful option. I won't be suing anyone or even talking to my dealer other then to thank them (Tidewater in Havre De Grace, MD) for the excellent service. They were very upfront about the ramifications with this choice and the other ones I made. I am new to this, but I have used this great site and other resoources to make the best choices I can and it still seems everything is a trade-off on some level. I accept that with open arms, but it don't mean I won't try to get around the trade-off if I can. Looking around my marina, it seems the in-mast furling is becoming quite popular and I thought someone like Doyle may have cooked up a way to get back some of that roach I lost. From the previous post, it looks like I was right and I intend to hop right over there and check it out. Mark, I heard that some of these furling battens were made with a kind of tape measure type of metal and that there were problems with it after a while. Any insight in to that and do you have a cut for the 320? I guess I will pick that up on the web site... Thank you all for the input. Greg (doesn't watch his GPS like a video game
G.Give Greg a break
He started out asking a simple question and wound up getting hammered for it. Good luck, Greg, I think you got a few helpul answers in there.
He started out asking a simple question and wound up getting hammered for it. Good luck, Greg, I think you got a few helpul answers in there.
Good roach on stoway mainsails
Greg, For an old client of mine who asked me to get him an easy to sail fast Hinckley S.W.42 I had, in the selection process the opportunity of sailing 2 identical boats... one with an electric hood stoway mast, the other, with a fully battened main. There was a very substantial difference in speed and windward performance between the two . [both equipped with full hoist 135% genoas. The furling main just wouldn't cut it. Sorry performance by comparison. I note that without an identical "trial horse" you wouldn't really know what you were missing . In the end we bought the stoway boat and I contacted my friend Peter Grimm @ Doyle sails in FT. Lauderdale and he ,in conference with the Marblehead loft produced a R.F.Main with two spring steel folding battens aligned horizontally and the clew outhaul well into the the sail. The integral clew brought the sail almost tight to the boom and the battens recaptured almost all the lost area. The performance was far superior to the old stoway main. Didn't have an opportunity to re-sail against the full battened boat but in informal races against a variety of boats that first summer, the sail proved to be fast. Second season Doyle asked for the sail back and re-oriented the battens vertically. Easier to furl and the big roach stayed as designed. All this was 3 yrs ago. I presume it has been further refined since then. Bottom Line... You CAN have your cake and eat it to, or at least most of it. All sailboats are basically slow so we must look for that extra knot [20%] It makes the difference of sitting in that idyllic anchorage with a rum punch and watching the sun set or coming in an hour after dark with a spotlight. Leave the jib alone. Good luck.
Greg, For an old client of mine who asked me to get him an easy to sail fast Hinckley S.W.42 I had, in the selection process the opportunity of sailing 2 identical boats... one with an electric hood stoway mast, the other, with a fully battened main. There was a very substantial difference in speed and windward performance between the two . [both equipped with full hoist 135% genoas. The furling main just wouldn't cut it. Sorry performance by comparison. I note that without an identical "trial horse" you wouldn't really know what you were missing . In the end we bought the stoway boat and I contacted my friend Peter Grimm @ Doyle sails in FT. Lauderdale and he ,in conference with the Marblehead loft produced a R.F.Main with two spring steel folding battens aligned horizontally and the clew outhaul well into the the sail. The integral clew brought the sail almost tight to the boom and the battens recaptured almost all the lost area. The performance was far superior to the old stoway main. Didn't have an opportunity to re-sail against the full battened boat but in informal races against a variety of boats that first summer, the sail proved to be fast. Second season Doyle asked for the sail back and re-oriented the battens vertically. Easier to furl and the big roach stayed as designed. All this was 3 yrs ago. I presume it has been further refined since then. Bottom Line... You CAN have your cake and eat it to, or at least most of it. All sailboats are basically slow so we must look for that extra knot [20%] It makes the difference of sitting in that idyllic anchorage with a rum punch and watching the sun set or coming in an hour after dark with a spotlight. Leave the jib alone. Good luck.
Swinging Batten from Doyle
The most recent SAIL mag shows a Doyle main with a swinging batten as a way of getting more roach and reefing the sail in the mast. It's in the article on the 10 most interesting inventions of 2000.
The most recent SAIL mag shows a Doyle main with a swinging batten as a way of getting more roach and reefing the sail in the mast. It's in the article on the 10 most interesting inventions of 2000.
In Mast Furling
I bought a 2000 Hunter 310 from Tidewater and they specifically did not recommend the in mast furling on my boat for exactly the reason you stated. I will definitely get in mast furling on my next boat ( when my wife let's me get my Wauquiez 43 Pilot Saloon). Something to think about, especiallly in the Chesapeake, I just ordered a Doyle Crusing Spinnaker for my Hunter. I think that would be a better choice than the 150 Genny. My e-mail is ramer1@aol.com, it's always fun to sail with or have a casual race ending with many Margaritas. We should hook up sometime over the summer, my wife and I sail to Annapolis probobly every other weekend. Brad Ramer
I bought a 2000 Hunter 310 from Tidewater and they specifically did not recommend the in mast furling on my boat for exactly the reason you stated. I will definitely get in mast furling on my next boat ( when my wife let's me get my Wauquiez 43 Pilot Saloon). Something to think about, especiallly in the Chesapeake, I just ordered a Doyle Crusing Spinnaker for my Hunter. I think that would be a better choice than the 150 Genny. My e-mail is ramer1@aol.com, it's always fun to sail with or have a casual race ending with many Margaritas. We should hook up sometime over the summer, my wife and I sail to Annapolis probobly every other weekend. Brad Ramer
In-Mast Furling Considerations
Some considerations with regard to the furling main is to ensure the clew area is protected from UV. In our marina it appears the sailmaker doesn't provide full UV protection for the exposed clew area. Also, a vertical portion of the sail will be constantly exposed to UV so it would improve the life expectancy of the sail if the boat was moored with the bow facing south in the northern hemisphere. After a few years one should really check the stiching where it is exposed for failure. If your boat will have a Seldon mast then the wires/conductiors that I've seen are not marine grade, unless they've made a change in the past year, and will corrode and loose their conductivity capability over time. This is something to be aware of and watch. Increased resistance in the conductors will cause lower voltage at the motor which in turn will require more current, which causes heat, in order to generate the same power. Many of the furling mains I've seen have fluttering leaches which causes a premature brake down of the sail fabric. When your sail is new this won't be much of a problem but find out how to eliminate leach flutter and be agressive in trimming the flutter out whenever you see it ocurring. On the positive side, since furling mains are so popular and there are so many developments to try and correct the roach problem it's possible that by the time your sail need replacing that there will be a good system available. I don't know how a furling main deals with draft when furled. The performance lost with a F/M for some sailors is a matter of concern. In our local club races and out on the water our 1988 35 with cross cut sails and Trinidad bottom paint easily cruises by any similar boat with a F/M. And speaking of Hinkleys, our 35 beats a F/M Hinkly 59 on a boat-for-boat basis all the time. And the Hinkly is a fairly new boat with a skipper and crew that knows how to sail and can afford what it takes, after all, it cost him about $1.5 M including the piano. If our boat had a furling main it would perform about the same as having 1-1/2 to 2 reefs in. At that rate I would be motoring a lot. Slab reefing on our boat is relatively easy, with markings on the main halyard and a Dutchman flaking system, with an Autohelm it's a one man job. On the other hand, many of the newer boats have the boom up really high which makes reefing more difficult and safety-wise this is a problem for me. I like to wrap my arm around the boom. With regard to your question about the jib size, I would recommend you stay with the 115. With a 150 and an apparent wind above, say, 18 knots, the sail will be overpowered and if used much in the 18 to 24 range it will become blown-out quickly. Changing headsails with a husband-wife team will cause problems unless your wife steers and you do the foredeck work. The solution for sailpower in off-the-wind sailing is a good asymetrical or two. For sailing to weather a lot of patience will help. The backstayless B&R rig is good for carying a large roach which is where all the power is. Look at the sails on the cats in "The Race"; now there's some roach! Did I hear one of them hit 45 knots? The fact that so many people want F/Ms should help keep the resale value up. Setting sail and putting the sail away will be much easier so you'll probably use the boat more. Have fun - that's what it's all about - and enjoy your new boat!
Some considerations with regard to the furling main is to ensure the clew area is protected from UV. In our marina it appears the sailmaker doesn't provide full UV protection for the exposed clew area. Also, a vertical portion of the sail will be constantly exposed to UV so it would improve the life expectancy of the sail if the boat was moored with the bow facing south in the northern hemisphere. After a few years one should really check the stiching where it is exposed for failure. If your boat will have a Seldon mast then the wires/conductiors that I've seen are not marine grade, unless they've made a change in the past year, and will corrode and loose their conductivity capability over time. This is something to be aware of and watch. Increased resistance in the conductors will cause lower voltage at the motor which in turn will require more current, which causes heat, in order to generate the same power. Many of the furling mains I've seen have fluttering leaches which causes a premature brake down of the sail fabric. When your sail is new this won't be much of a problem but find out how to eliminate leach flutter and be agressive in trimming the flutter out whenever you see it ocurring. On the positive side, since furling mains are so popular and there are so many developments to try and correct the roach problem it's possible that by the time your sail need replacing that there will be a good system available. I don't know how a furling main deals with draft when furled. The performance lost with a F/M for some sailors is a matter of concern. In our local club races and out on the water our 1988 35 with cross cut sails and Trinidad bottom paint easily cruises by any similar boat with a F/M. And speaking of Hinkleys, our 35 beats a F/M Hinkly 59 on a boat-for-boat basis all the time. And the Hinkly is a fairly new boat with a skipper and crew that knows how to sail and can afford what it takes, after all, it cost him about $1.5 M including the piano. If our boat had a furling main it would perform about the same as having 1-1/2 to 2 reefs in. At that rate I would be motoring a lot. Slab reefing on our boat is relatively easy, with markings on the main halyard and a Dutchman flaking system, with an Autohelm it's a one man job. On the other hand, many of the newer boats have the boom up really high which makes reefing more difficult and safety-wise this is a problem for me. I like to wrap my arm around the boom. With regard to your question about the jib size, I would recommend you stay with the 115. With a 150 and an apparent wind above, say, 18 knots, the sail will be overpowered and if used much in the 18 to 24 range it will become blown-out quickly. Changing headsails with a husband-wife team will cause problems unless your wife steers and you do the foredeck work. The solution for sailpower in off-the-wind sailing is a good asymetrical or two. For sailing to weather a lot of patience will help. The backstayless B&R rig is good for carying a large roach which is where all the power is. Look at the sails on the cats in "The Race"; now there's some roach! Did I hear one of them hit 45 knots? The fact that so many people want F/Ms should help keep the resale value up. Setting sail and putting the sail away will be much easier so you'll probably use the boat more. Have fun - that's what it's all about - and enjoy your new boat!
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