I am in the process of buying a new Hunter 410 and have to make a decision about whether or not to get the in-mast furling system. What are the pros and cons and how much performance will I lose?
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I think it's great!
Just had one put on my 460 this fall, so I only had the opportunity to use it a few times before the boat was winterized. It works great! It is sooo easy to use. You will notice a small difference in performance in light air but when it starts blowing 15 to 20 knots I think it will be negligable. Our boat with the full batten main was 1150 sq ft. Furling main is 1000 sq ft, so you do lose some square footage, but ease of operation out ways that IMHO. Mark Johnson
Just had one put on my 460 this fall, so I only had the opportunity to use it a few times before the boat was winterized. It works great! It is sooo easy to use. You will notice a small difference in performance in light air but when it starts blowing 15 to 20 knots I think it will be negligable. Our boat with the full batten main was 1150 sq ft. Furling main is 1000 sq ft, so you do lose some square footage, but ease of operation out ways that IMHO. Mark Johnson
Cruising World review
I "heard" that CW did an article on the 460. In it they mentioned... What's the point of having a B&R backstayless rig with a roller furling mast. It just doesn't add up. The B&R rig was designed for a purpose (I hope). The purpose seems to be to allow a large roached powerful mainsail and small easy to handle headsails. I just don't get what's the value of the B&R rig with inmast furling. This is only my opinion, but I think inmast furling is a big step in wrong direction for cruising boats. With a battenless sail it's like flying a sheet. Not to mention what do you do if the furler gets stuck in a partially furled position in a bad situation. Another 410 owner indicated it happened to him already. An electric halyard winch or a roller furling boom seem like much better solutions to the same problem. Just offering the other point of view...
I "heard" that CW did an article on the 460. In it they mentioned... What's the point of having a B&R backstayless rig with a roller furling mast. It just doesn't add up. The B&R rig was designed for a purpose (I hope). The purpose seems to be to allow a large roached powerful mainsail and small easy to handle headsails. I just don't get what's the value of the B&R rig with inmast furling. This is only my opinion, but I think inmast furling is a big step in wrong direction for cruising boats. With a battenless sail it's like flying a sheet. Not to mention what do you do if the furler gets stuck in a partially furled position in a bad situation. Another 410 owner indicated it happened to him already. An electric halyard winch or a roller furling boom seem like much better solutions to the same problem. Just offering the other point of view...
Alex
The whole point of Hunter sail plan is to enable a big , roachy main as the main 'wind engine' with a 7/8 blade high clew-and quit small- headsail. If you take out 1.battens 2. roach . along with flat sail (opposed to wing-foiled one)needed for in-mast furling , you loose A LOT of performance . To begin with , sail area/dispacement ratios are mostly conservative on Hunters. You may notice many boats with in-mast furling mainsail , but those have mostly at least 130% genoa which can give the needed 'wind power' lost by the 'downgraded' mainsail. Also , you need to have completely stright mast for this (and then if unbent , what the dimond stays are needed for ?...). For ease of reefing , I would go for single, or -for bigger boats -dual line reefing coupled with some battcar system , or if budged -and Hunter options..- allows, one of the newer and much improved in-boom furling. For in-mast sail configuration , you don't need the benefits - and the limitations imposed by- B&R rig..
The whole point of Hunter sail plan is to enable a big , roachy main as the main 'wind engine' with a 7/8 blade high clew-and quit small- headsail. If you take out 1.battens 2. roach . along with flat sail (opposed to wing-foiled one)needed for in-mast furling , you loose A LOT of performance . To begin with , sail area/dispacement ratios are mostly conservative on Hunters. You may notice many boats with in-mast furling mainsail , but those have mostly at least 130% genoa which can give the needed 'wind power' lost by the 'downgraded' mainsail. Also , you need to have completely stright mast for this (and then if unbent , what the dimond stays are needed for ?...). For ease of reefing , I would go for single, or -for bigger boats -dual line reefing coupled with some battcar system , or if budged -and Hunter options..- allows, one of the newer and much improved in-boom furling. For in-mast sail configuration , you don't need the benefits - and the limitations imposed by- B&R rig..
in-mast furling
I have been sailing(cruising) for 20 years and heard the same arguements years back about furling headsails. Look at most marinas today and see how many boats you see without furling headsails. We have a Hunter 410 with in-mast furling(Selden) and we love it. Does it make a difference performance-wise? I really can't tell---the 410 is a very fast boat and that has been verified many times over the last year by both racers and cruisers who have been along side the boat or at the helm. I do know the convenience is something I would not do without. You can reef or stow with ease and that makes sailing more fun and comfortable. Just as you see headsail furling on most boats today, I expect to see furling mains on most boats once people get familiar with its advantages.
I have been sailing(cruising) for 20 years and heard the same arguements years back about furling headsails. Look at most marinas today and see how many boats you see without furling headsails. We have a Hunter 410 with in-mast furling(Selden) and we love it. Does it make a difference performance-wise? I really can't tell---the 410 is a very fast boat and that has been verified many times over the last year by both racers and cruisers who have been along side the boat or at the helm. I do know the convenience is something I would not do without. You can reef or stow with ease and that makes sailing more fun and comfortable. Just as you see headsail furling on most boats today, I expect to see furling mains on most boats once people get familiar with its advantages.
Convenience Rules!
Have owned both inmast and regular versions of the same boat, I would agree there might be a small performance hit. But the real question is how and why you sail. If you like to cruise, and are usually single or shorthanded(or your sailing partner doesn't like to handle sails), then the inmast is the way to go. If max performance is your game, then go with the conventional. Me, I like being able to have the sails out 30 seconds after clearing the harbor without ever leaving he cockpit or having to have a crew member along. Hey, its your money!
Have owned both inmast and regular versions of the same boat, I would agree there might be a small performance hit. But the real question is how and why you sail. If you like to cruise, and are usually single or shorthanded(or your sailing partner doesn't like to handle sails), then the inmast is the way to go. If max performance is your game, then go with the conventional. Me, I like being able to have the sails out 30 seconds after clearing the harbor without ever leaving he cockpit or having to have a crew member along. Hey, its your money!
no contest
after having sailed my 410 with in-mast furling (SV Buoyant, hull #47) extensively for the past 1.5 year, including one offshore trip in excess of 1000 nautical miles, i recently helped a friend take offshore delivery of a Tyana 48 with a full-battened main and electric winches and lazyjacks. we took the Tyana 600 nautical miles over thanksgiving, and all i can say is that i'll never go back to a conventional main on a big boat. it was a massive job getting that thing up and down, one that really wanted four people but could be done with difficulty with three people or with extreme cursing and sweating with two race-seasoned veterans. if you want to race the boat, and don't plan on cruising it as a couple, by all means get a full-battened main. if you usually sail in light air, the slight performance loss of having in-mast furling might be too high a price to pay. but if you're thinking of cruising the boat shorthanded (as a couple?) in general conditions, a Seldon in-mast furling system will contribute significantly to your sailing enjoyment and safety. having the ability to shorten/strike the main in a few seconds without leaving the cockpit is a no-brainer. I don't need crew to cruise my boat, but my friend in the gorgeous new Tyana always will, this despite a split (cutter) rig. which is cool by me, because once he makes it to the carribean i'm planning to help him wrestle with that gnarly full-battened main once again. yes!
after having sailed my 410 with in-mast furling (SV Buoyant, hull #47) extensively for the past 1.5 year, including one offshore trip in excess of 1000 nautical miles, i recently helped a friend take offshore delivery of a Tyana 48 with a full-battened main and electric winches and lazyjacks. we took the Tyana 600 nautical miles over thanksgiving, and all i can say is that i'll never go back to a conventional main on a big boat. it was a massive job getting that thing up and down, one that really wanted four people but could be done with difficulty with three people or with extreme cursing and sweating with two race-seasoned veterans. if you want to race the boat, and don't plan on cruising it as a couple, by all means get a full-battened main. if you usually sail in light air, the slight performance loss of having in-mast furling might be too high a price to pay. but if you're thinking of cruising the boat shorthanded (as a couple?) in general conditions, a Seldon in-mast furling system will contribute significantly to your sailing enjoyment and safety. having the ability to shorten/strike the main in a few seconds without leaving the cockpit is a no-brainer. I don't need crew to cruise my boat, but my friend in the gorgeous new Tyana always will, this despite a split (cutter) rig. which is cool by me, because once he makes it to the carribean i'm planning to help him wrestle with that gnarly full-battened main once again. yes!
Racer or Cruiser????
You didn't mention if you are going to be a weekend racer or a seasonal cruiser. Also you didn't give your age and whether or not you have a wife on board. All these are factors to consider. I have met many, many people that thought performance was so important, did not go with roller furling and regreted later on. I have yet to meet anyone that regrets getting the roller furling or changed back to non-roller furling. I have met people that wished that they had gone with some other roller furling than what they had, so do your homework. Have your Hunter dealer take you out on boats with and without roller furling. Seldens are hard to beat. I have the Z-Spar and wish I had Selden, but would not go without roller furling of some type.
You didn't mention if you are going to be a weekend racer or a seasonal cruiser. Also you didn't give your age and whether or not you have a wife on board. All these are factors to consider. I have met many, many people that thought performance was so important, did not go with roller furling and regreted later on. I have yet to meet anyone that regrets getting the roller furling or changed back to non-roller furling. I have met people that wished that they had gone with some other roller furling than what they had, so do your homework. Have your Hunter dealer take you out on boats with and without roller furling. Seldens are hard to beat. I have the Z-Spar and wish I had Selden, but would not go without roller furling of some type.
the alternative...
Bob: We have a 99 H410 with the full roach main, UK Sails Lazy Cradle and jacks, with all lines run back to the cockpit. The electric winch eliminates the need for tons of muscle for raising and lowering the main. The cradle and jacks make raising and stowing the sail a breeze and we never leave the cockpit with all the lines run back. In addition to the point made that the B&R rig is designed to perform with a full roach main (and boy, does the boat fly and handle beautifully), the other possible thing to keep in mind is that heel is minimized with the full roach main while maintaining better speed versus a loose footed, in-mast furled main. Our neighbor has a year-old Beneteau 411 with the Selden in-mast furling, and it fouls about once a month - he's also had both his main and jib foul in severe weather at the same time. His large genoa overpowers his autopilot, but we can sail without autopilot and track perfectly with our large main. Naw, we'll stick with the conventional main until they works the kinks out of in-boom furling. Fair winds, /c s/v Twilight.
Bob: We have a 99 H410 with the full roach main, UK Sails Lazy Cradle and jacks, with all lines run back to the cockpit. The electric winch eliminates the need for tons of muscle for raising and lowering the main. The cradle and jacks make raising and stowing the sail a breeze and we never leave the cockpit with all the lines run back. In addition to the point made that the B&R rig is designed to perform with a full roach main (and boy, does the boat fly and handle beautifully), the other possible thing to keep in mind is that heel is minimized with the full roach main while maintaining better speed versus a loose footed, in-mast furled main. Our neighbor has a year-old Beneteau 411 with the Selden in-mast furling, and it fouls about once a month - he's also had both his main and jib foul in severe weather at the same time. His large genoa overpowers his autopilot, but we can sail without autopilot and track perfectly with our large main. Naw, we'll stick with the conventional main until they works the kinks out of in-boom furling. Fair winds, /c s/v Twilight.
To each his own...
After the go-round on this subject a couple months ago I thought I would sit this one out, but... just can't take it! Two weeks ago our club finished up a five race series with a cross-section of boats from a San Juan 23 up to a three-year old Hinkly 59. The Hinkley and a Catalina 42 (Commodors boat!) both had in-mast furling and our H-35 beat them not once, not twice, but every time, boat-for-boat. We out dragged them up wind and down wind. Even the San Juan was beating them!! Why? First, the furling mains have almost a negative roach because there are no battens so there is a tremendous loss of drive area up high where it really counts. Secondly, the leach tends to have wrinkles from premature aging due to lack of battens. Replacing these big sails every few years can get expensive. The other option I suppose is to crank up the tension on the leach line and put a big hook in the sail - more loss of efficiency. I don't consider myself a "racer" but it really goes against my grain to see a smaller boat pass me. By comparison to the furling mains, my full-batten main has absolutely beautiful shape and I expect it to retain it's shape for many many years to come, and there are no wrinkles in the leach. When the leach starts to flutter all it takes is a small adjustment on the leach line and it stops it right away, and there is no perceptable hook. When my main is put away, flaked on the boom with Dutchman system, there is no Dacron exposed to sunlight whereas all the furling mains I've seen have some Dacron exposed to sun. One argument in favor of the furling main, on a Hunter, is the newer Hunters have the boom so high up that it's really difficult to reach the boom in order to flake the sail. If that's your case then I'd say the options appear fairly limited. Personality wise, the guy with the Catalina is fairly laid-back and how fast his boat goes doesn't appear to be that important (especially if there is something good to drink), and I've seen the guy with the Hinkley, when he's not racing, has been known to kick on his engine and motor-sail. To each his own.
After the go-round on this subject a couple months ago I thought I would sit this one out, but... just can't take it! Two weeks ago our club finished up a five race series with a cross-section of boats from a San Juan 23 up to a three-year old Hinkly 59. The Hinkley and a Catalina 42 (Commodors boat!) both had in-mast furling and our H-35 beat them not once, not twice, but every time, boat-for-boat. We out dragged them up wind and down wind. Even the San Juan was beating them!! Why? First, the furling mains have almost a negative roach because there are no battens so there is a tremendous loss of drive area up high where it really counts. Secondly, the leach tends to have wrinkles from premature aging due to lack of battens. Replacing these big sails every few years can get expensive. The other option I suppose is to crank up the tension on the leach line and put a big hook in the sail - more loss of efficiency. I don't consider myself a "racer" but it really goes against my grain to see a smaller boat pass me. By comparison to the furling mains, my full-batten main has absolutely beautiful shape and I expect it to retain it's shape for many many years to come, and there are no wrinkles in the leach. When the leach starts to flutter all it takes is a small adjustment on the leach line and it stops it right away, and there is no perceptable hook. When my main is put away, flaked on the boom with Dutchman system, there is no Dacron exposed to sunlight whereas all the furling mains I've seen have some Dacron exposed to sun. One argument in favor of the furling main, on a Hunter, is the newer Hunters have the boom so high up that it's really difficult to reach the boom in order to flake the sail. If that's your case then I'd say the options appear fairly limited. Personality wise, the guy with the Catalina is fairly laid-back and how fast his boat goes doesn't appear to be that important (especially if there is something good to drink), and I've seen the guy with the Hinkley, when he's not racing, has been known to kick on his engine and motor-sail. To each his own.
This topic again??
I cannot believe we are having this discussion yet again. Mainsail furlers are: 1. Dangerous as hell. 2. Expensive. 3. Heavy. 4. Require sails that have the shape and efficiency of a bedsheet. While I realize that many people have physical limitations, an electric winch goes a long way toward solving this problem. It's also safer, cheaper, lighter, and doesn't require poorly made sails to function. Add in a Dutchman system or lazy jacks and you still have money left over. For those that are so concerned with convenience, why not just buy a powerboat? Then you won't have to deal with those nasty sails at all... MC
I cannot believe we are having this discussion yet again. Mainsail furlers are: 1. Dangerous as hell. 2. Expensive. 3. Heavy. 4. Require sails that have the shape and efficiency of a bedsheet. While I realize that many people have physical limitations, an electric winch goes a long way toward solving this problem. It's also safer, cheaper, lighter, and doesn't require poorly made sails to function. Add in a Dutchman system or lazy jacks and you still have money left over. For those that are so concerned with convenience, why not just buy a powerboat? Then you won't have to deal with those nasty sails at all... MC
Note for MC
Well, I can't remember ever actually sailing with an in-mast or even in-boom system before, but I am quite certain now that I never will. I encourage you to not hold back next time; come on, tell it like it is!!
I appreciated your input. Jay
Well, I can't remember ever actually sailing with an in-mast or even in-boom system before, but I am quite certain now that I never will. I encourage you to not hold back next time; come on, tell it like it is!!
I appreciated your input. JayLighten Up!
Let's all not forget that sailing is meant to be a pleasurable hobby. We are supposed to be having fun!
Let's all not forget that sailing is meant to be a pleasurable hobby. We are supposed to be having fun!
in mast furling
I'm sold on the in-mast furling. But, then I also got the 3 bladed prop on my new 310. Obviously, performance wasn't the big issue with us. Comfort and ease of handling was what we were interested in. We seem to do pretty well though, even if we are flying a sheet and dragging a bucket!
I'm sold on the in-mast furling. But, then I also got the 3 bladed prop on my new 310. Obviously, performance wasn't the big issue with us. Comfort and ease of handling was what we were interested in. We seem to do pretty well though, even if we are flying a sheet and dragging a bucket!
We ARE having fun!
After all, the main furling vs. non furling issue is one of the great boating debates of the century, and there are only a few days left to go. I'm sorry for being so reticent on this topic, by the way. I really DO have to learn to speak up more effectively.. MC
After all, the main furling vs. non furling issue is one of the great boating debates of the century, and there are only a few days left to go. I'm sorry for being so reticent on this topic, by the way. I really DO have to learn to speak up more effectively..
MC- Status