In-Mast Furling Mainsail+ Topping Lift+ Rigid Boom Vang?

[rardiH36]

This doesn't pertain to my boat, but twice over the last year I've been on 36-42 ft cruising boats with in-mast mainsail furling (and hence loose-footed by default). Both boats were fitted with rigid boom vangs. And topping lifts. In both cases, the skipper/owner did not slacken either the topping lift or adjust the boom vang to allow the boom to drop naturally to the mainsail leach tension. Result (to me anyway) was that the mainsail's leach was always very slack = lots of twist ... even when the main sheet was moderately tensioned for close haul sailing.

Question: As opposed to my slug footed mainsail, for which I slacken the topping lift and use the boom vang primarily to prevent the boom from rising when on a beam/broad reach, is the technique different for in-mast furling set-ups as described above? I also do the same when I've reef the mainsail. Which is a loose-footed arrangement; more so than less I think.

I am aware that if the wind is slight, using the topping lift and/or the boom vang to lift the boom a bit imparts better draft for the sail. But in my two outings, the wind was more moderate/strong.

 

[Don Guillette]

rardiH36: Just a quick comment and hopefully this subject will roll on -- you know more about the mainsail sail trim controls than the boat owner!! Maybe because you spend some time on the sail trim forum!!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Interesting that both had both topping lifts AND rigid vangs. I would think that the rigid vang would be set up to lift the boom high enough to enable the main to be furled.

Sail shape controls should be similar if not identical once the sail is unfurled.

I think you're right to question the techniques of the skippers.

 

[Nodak7]

This doesn't pertain to my boat, but twice over the last year I've been on 36-42 ft cruising boats with in-mast mainsail furling (and hence loose-footed by default). Both boats were fitted with rigid boom vangs. And topping lifts. In both cases, the skipper/owner did not slacken either the topping lift or adjust the boom vang to allow the boom to drop naturally to the mainsail leach tension. Result (to me anyway) was that the mainsail's leach was always very slack = lots of twist ... even when the main sheet was moderately tensioned for close haul sailing.

Question: As opposed to my slug footed mainsail, for which I slacken the topping lift and use the boom vang primarily to prevent the boom from rising when on a beam/broad reach, is the technique different for in-mast furling set-ups as described above? I also do the same when I've reef the mainsail. Which is a loose-footed arrangement; more so than less I think.

I am aware that if the wind is slight, using the topping lift and/or the boom vang to lift the boom a bit imparts better draft for the sail. But in my two outings, the wind was more moderate/strong.

Rardi, I could be one of those owners....so I will try to give you as response. Yes it is different, at least for Hunters which have arches like I have. If you tighten up on the rigid vang to keep the leach tensioned you run the risk of bringing the boom down below the top of the arch. So as far as I am concerned that adjustment is not available to me. As far as the topping lift goes it really has very little use to me. If I want to raise the boom I can loosen the vang. Please clue me into the faults of my thinking. Thanks

 

[Paul Mermelstein]

I have a Beneteau 393 with in-mast furling. I agree with rardiH36 in that the sail controls should be used the same way as with a classical main (except that furlers have no cunningham). I have both the topping lift and rigid vang (it's really a spring compression vang, not truly rigid). I don't typically need to mess with the topping lift, since I have the system set up so that the boom raises up as the sail is unfurled and the leech takes the appropriate tension. I do use the vang for off wind control to keep the boom from rising too much. Upwind, the mainsheet and traveller are pretty much all I need (the vang doesn't do anything for me upwind). If I need more draft in light air, I might slacken the outhaul a bit. I leave the halyard and topping lift alone.

 

[seadaddler]

Vang

On my 07 H-36 my vang goes to the stop and so the boom never goes past the arch and most vangs on stock Hunters don't have the springs in the vang to push up the boom and it all depends how yyou have the topping lift adjusted with the boom up or down.
The way I have the topping lift adjusted is the boom can be pulled down a few inches and that depends on the wind and how much the mainsheet is adjusted.
Nick

 

[rardiH36]

Thanks the feed-back. Also subsequent to my opening post, I did Google "in-mast furling sail trim topping lift". Included were hits for several SBO threads going back a number of years. (Sometimes Google and Bing find stuff that the SBO forum engine doesn't seem to bring up.)

As mentioned, I don't have in-mast furling, but being on the two boats with it, something just didn't seem "trim right" with the deployed mainsails. But with no knowledge of the tricks of the in-mast furler crowd, I didn't feel correct to query the skippers. So curious after the fact.

Provided that a high arch (or dodger I suppose) doesn't affect the situation, seems that once the main is unfurled from the mast, then it is OK to slacken the topping lift (and/or pull down a spring loaded rigid vang) so that the main sheet can do its usual downward firming/shaping of the leech/sail as the boom moves towards center-line for close-haul and close reach sailing. Then at the end of the outing, need to remember to raise the boom with the topping lift (and/or by un-tensioning the vang) to the level that works for re-furling the sail into the mast. (This doesn't seem much different than with a traditional mainsail where it really helps when raising or dousing to raise the boom enough to slacken the sail/leech which removes much of the friction of the slides in the mast track.)

Not that I am going to do anything with the knowledge, but hope I've got it somewhat right!

 

[rardiH36]

.... If you tighten up on the rigid vang to keep the leach tensioned you run the risk of bringing the boom down below the top of the arch....

Nodak7:



I really don't know, but is it possible to have the clew of your main sail repositioned higher a bit, so you then have enough clearance between the arch when the boom hangs from the sail naturally without needing the topping lift or vang keeping it up? Maybe when the sail was new, the arch conflict wasn't a problem? But now if the sail has stretched several inches or more, the boom is hanging lower? Just a thought.

My experience (traditional sail slide system) on the theme occurs when comparing my two main sails. Both are serviceable but old. The one which came with the boat allows the boom to hang down to just below my 6'4" head height when I am standing in the cockpit. The other, a second-hand Catalina 36 full battened mainsail, is cut with a shorter leech which instead keeps the boom about 6" above my head. As a day cruiser rather than any sort of a racer, I've opted to use the sail that will assist keeping my thick skull further from harm's way!

 

[Don Guillette]

What do I know since I've only sailed on one Hunter (Rick Dinion and on a day where there was no wind -- we had to run the engine to fake the wind). I didn't notice the arch but in this discussion the arch seems to be the problem. It was probably designed by someone who never sailed the boat. Sort of like the curved track traveler on older Catalina's.The curved track may look cosmetically pleasing but it didn't work and was chessy mechanically -- 4 crappy rollers that fell apart over time.

A mainsail boom should be allowed to be held up by the sail itself without any help from the topping lift. You can't correctly trim the sail any other way.

 

[Nodak7]

What do I know since I've only sailed on one Hunter (Rick Dinion and on a day where there was no wind -- we had to run the engine to fake the wind). I didn't notice the arch but in this discussion the arch seems to be the problem. It was probably designed by someone who never sailed the boat. Sort of like the curved track traveler on older Catalina's.The curved track may look cosmetically pleasing but it didn't work and was chessy mechanically -- 4 crappy rollers that fell apart over time.

A mainsail boom should be allowed to be held up by the sail itself without any help from the topping lift. You can't correctly trim the sail any other way.

Don, don't get me wrong! I love the arch on our boat and do not feel it is a hinderance to our sailing. It is inconvenient, at times, but the benefits of having the traveler lines right next to me at the helm is worth it. Especially since we sail on a "gusty" lake. The Vang holds the boom up and away from the Arch so that is not an issue. It just negates the "sail shaping" that the vang would normally do. Basically for me the topping lift is used for climbing the mast and flying the flags. Not much use other than that.... kind of like tonsils..

 

[Nodak7]

Nodak7:



I really don't know, but is it possible to have the clew of your main sail repositioned higher a bit, so you then have enough clearance between the arch when the boom hangs from the sail naturally without needing the topping lift or vang keeping it up? Maybe when the sail was new, the arch conflict wasn't a problem? But now if the sail has stretched several inches or more, the boom is hanging lower? Just a thought.

My experience (traditional sail slide system) on the theme occurs when comparing my two main sails. Both are serviceable but old. The one which came with the boat allows the boom to hang down to just below my 6'4" head height when I am standing in the cockpit. The other, a second-hand Catalina 36 full battened mainsail, is cut with a shorter leech which instead keeps the boom about 6" above my head. As a day cruiser rather than any sort of a racer, I've opted to use the sail that will assist keeping my thick skull further from harm's way!

Rardi, no the boom is horizontal and the sail was little used by the PO so it is not that. This is our second Hunter (the other was new) and both have/had the same issues with the Vang and topping lift. I use the TL primarily as my mast climbing line. It just appears to be indicative of a B&R rig with a furling mainsail.

I actually tried to move the vang for and aft on the boom to find a better position. If you put the connection for, it raises the boom which affects the furling of the sail. If you put the connection more aft it gives the vang play but you could lower the boom to the point it strikes the arch. I settled for the completely collapsed vang that just keeps the boom off the arch position. Much safer that way. Very rarely do I mess with it. Unless I am bored and trying to play with sail shape.

 

[rardiH36]

Rardi, no the boom is horizontal and the sail was little used by the PO so it is not that. This is our second Hunter (the other was new) and both have/had the same issues with the Vang and topping lift. I use the TL primarily as my mast climbing line. It just appears to be indicative of a B&R rig with a furling mainsail.

I actually tried to move the vang for and aft on the boom to find a better position. If you put the connection for, it raises the boom which affects the furling of the sail. If you put the connection more aft it gives the vang play but you could lower the boom to the point it strikes the arch. I settled for the completely collapsed vang that just keeps the boom off the arch position. Much safer that way. Very rarely do I mess with it. Unless I am bored and trying to play with sail shape.

Nodak7:

Thanks the explanations. Good in-practice examples that for each of us and our boats, an important consideration must be: Do what works!

rardi

 

[luv2sail67]

In defence of the Arch, and a couple other comments

I agree - I love the arch on our 2010 Hunter 38 - I echo the sentiments related to ease of sailing on a gusty lake -- AND we use our topping lift to hoist a fin delta riding sail - that helps us not dance so much at anchor... :dance: Plus if our rigid vang ever broke - we'd be able to keep the boom off the arch with the topping lift.

Don, don't get me wrong! I love the arch on our boat and do not feel it is a hinderance to our sailing. It is inconvenient, at times, but the benefits of having the traveler lines right next to me at the helm is worth it. Especially since we sail on a "gusty" lake. The Vang holds the boom up and away from the Arch so that is not an issue. It just negates the "sail shaping" that the vang would normally do. Basically for me the topping lift is used for climbing the mast and flying the flags. Not much use other than that.... kind of like tonsils..

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I have sold, installed and sailed many types of boats with in Mast Furling mainsails. First of all, the Furling main is basically trimmed the same way as a conventional main. If the arch on some boats get in the way of proper mainsail trim (for instance, the leech cannot stretch to its natural length), then the arch is a bad idea, or too high, etc. One reason for a topping lift would be just to solidify the boom when at the dock, at anchor, etc. if there is no topping lift, then anyone moving about the boat around the boom, who happens to maybe apply weight to it, might bounce it off the head of someone in the cockpit. So, if for no other reason, the topping lift keeps the boom where you want it. Of course you need a loose foot with a furling main, but many sailmakers now are putting loose foots on conventional mains too, so it is not such an oddity. The first loose-footed main I owned was in 1978, so it is not like they are a new revelation. As far as draft is concerned, as one person mentioned, draft is controled like it is on a conventional main. Tighten the halyard to bring the draft forward and loosen it to bring it aft. Tighten the outhaul to bring the draft down and loosen it to bring the draft up, but really on a furling main, the outhaul will help flatten the sail in the heavier winds, which is important. The vang is crucial upwind in heavy air because it too helps flatten the main and when you get a gust, often you can just vang sheet to get through it and then just haul down on the vang again when the gust goes by. But, even just off the wind, the vang controls the leech twist in the sail to help match it with the twist of your genoa so that you get a good slot all over. Down wind the vang keeps the boom from rising in heavier stuff.

 

[Nodak7]

I have sold, installed and sailed many types of boats with in Mast Furling mainsails. First of all, the Furling main is basically trimmed the same way as a conventional main. If the arch on some boats get in the way of proper mainsail trim (for instance, the leech cannot stretch to its natural length), then the arch is a bad idea, or too high, etc. One reason for a topping lift would be just to solidify the boom when at the dock, at anchor, etc. if there is no topping lift, then anyone moving about the boat around the boom, who happens to maybe apply weight to it, might bounce it off the head of someone in the cockpit. So, if for no other reason, the topping lift keeps the boom where you want it. Of course you need a loose foot with a furling main, but many sailmakers now are putting loose foots on conventional mains too, so it is not such an oddity. The first loose-footed main I owned was in 1978, so it is not like they are a new revelation. As far as draft is concerned, as one person mentioned, draft is controled like it is on a conventional main. Tighten the halyard to bring the draft forward and loosen it to bring it aft. Tighten the outhaul to bring the draft down and loosen it to bring the draft up, but really on a furling main, the outhaul will help flatten the sail in the heavier winds, which is important. The vang is crucial upwind in heavy air because it too helps flatten the main and when you get a gust, often you can just vang sheet to get through it and then just haul down on the vang again when the gust goes by. But, even just off the wind, the vang controls the leech twist in the sail to help match it with the twist of your genoa so that you get a good slot all over. Down wind the vang keeps the boom from rising in heavier stuff.

Barnacle, when I weigh the advantages of the arch vs the disadvantages the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. As far as I am concerned it is a "good idea" and what little I have lost in sail trim and boat speed I have more than made up with in other ways. You can keep your .0001 kts speed advantage and I am sure there are no "bad ideas" on your boat! :naughty:

 

[cbsura]

I have a 2005 Bavaria 32 with in-mast furling + rigid vang + topping lift installed as standard equipment. There is no arch to get in the way. The main use for the TL, in my opinion, is to prevent the sail from jamming in the furler. I always ease the TL after unfurling, and always tighten it before furling to get the proper boom angle to prevent jams. Beyond that I use the vang like a regular vang to control the draft.

 

[Don Guillette]

Beginners to intermediate, the primary purpose and main purpose of the topping lift is to hold up the boom when the mainsail is furled. That function is what it was designed for. When the mainsail is unfurled the sail itself holds the boom in place. Hunter designers put an arch in the way so the boom can't be held by the sail. That's a problem for Hunter owners only and no one else deal with. Cbsura is using the topping lift to make furling easier. He's not using it as a sail trim control.

Any beginner to intermediate sailors who own other boats brands should completely release the topping lift. If you're an advanced sailor (25% of the sailors worldwide) you can use the topping lift to your advantage in very light winds. If you're not an advanced sailor, the LAST SAIL TRIM CONTROL for the mainsail you want to learn and mess with is the topping lift.

 

[sandpiper10471]

Having worked with many newer Hunters, Beneteau and Jeaneau, I must agree with most of that which is written above. On many boats the vang's usefulness is limited not just by Hunter's arch but also by the height and position of the biminis on other models. Being involved with charter boats, it is preferred that the vang prevent the boom from ever damaging the bimini over efficient sail trim. Drives me nuts sailing but saves a lot of repair work with the sewing machine.
Two reasons to keep the topping lift when a rigid vang is installed. Should the main haliard and/or furling system jam, (very rare) the only way up to the top of a B&R rig is via the topping lift. Secondly, when anchored in surge abeam, the boom wants to swing outboard on the roll and because it is held by the sheet, will tend to compress the vang and the arc of the swing increases. The topping lift can help control this. Neither of these reasons has a thing to do with sail trim of course.

 

[Nodak7]

Secondly, when anchored in surge abeam, the boom wants to swing outboard on the roll and because it is held by the sheet, will tend to compress the vang and the arc of the swing increases. The topping lift can help control this. Neither of these reasons has a thing to do with sail trim of course.

Sandpiper, you make an interesting comment regarding the boom that I am still trying to figure out. Is not the boom held in place keeping it from swinging port and starboard by the traveler? Unless the sheet is very loose I see no way that the boom could move either direction. On my boat the sheet compresses the boom down onto the vang. This is another reason that the vang adjustment be correct. If it is set so the boom is up to high it will not only effect furling but you can put a tremendous amount of downward pressure (lever type) on the boom. I am not certain if you could damage it but it has always been a concern to me. If it is set to low, as we have been discussing, you can hit the arch or bimini. I have mine adjusted so it sets above the traveler car and with enough clearance not to interfer with the sheet pulleys. My topping lift is basically used just as my means to get to the top of the mast and to fly flags from. I actually replaced the standard topping lift with a longer one so I could run it back thru the organizers and clutch to the cockpit. That way I could use the winch for lifting and lowering the climber. Just my thoughts..... Please correct me if I misunderstood!

 

[sandpiper10471]

Nodak 7: You have it all pretty well sussed out in my estimation. I did have an issue in boom swing back when I was ocean sailing. (Now in the North Channel) Perhaps my issue had to do with the boat itself. She was a MacGregor 65 with a 27ft. boom mounting a mainsail that weighed in over 200 lbs. When anchored in surge, the force of the surge would push the boom laterally. Because it was held by the mainsheet and traveler, it couldn't swing laterally but the forces then caused the hydraulic vang to compress, hence the boom would drop and effectively loosen the mainsheet. This would increase the swing and it would become more exaggerated every wave. Only by tightening the topping lift and applying preventers could this situation be eliminated. Of course if I had had a typical rigid spring tensioned vang set in the bottomed-out position (which is what started this thread), this would not have happened but the forces on the gooseneck and vang mounts would have been horrendous.