I'm sure you guys heard about the four

[bffatcat]

capsize for Tim Cup

I dont blame you Tim cup I wouldnt go outside of land in a 22ft boat with an epirb ssb life raft or any thing else

 

[Ross]

I am always concerned by the small freeboard at the transoms of outboard powered boats. Sometimes with two 250 hp engines on the back it appears that they lack much reserve buoyancy at the stern. If they had been pooped would that drag the stern down enough to kill the engines? Without the engines they couldn't steer so they would have no control of the boat.

 

[Mike B]

Ross, it was a single engine center console walkabout with a displacement of apx 3000 lbs. All accounts I've read stated they were anchored and were capsized by a wave. I wouldn't expect getting pooped while running would be an issue as they should have the ability to out run the wave. Not sure if you've ever been on one but there's plenty of space for the water to flow about if they do take water on board. They usually have adequate scuppers as well. The engines sit fairly high and it would take an enormous amount of water to submerse the boat enough to stall the engines. If it did I'd think it would be sitting so low a capsize would be unlikely. The particular model they had, an Everglades, has built in foamed chambers to keep it afloat, similiar to Boston Whalers. How it sat to the waves while anchored is anyone's guess. I'd expect, in the conditions they encountered, that the waves were steep and confused. The right (or wrong in this case) sequence of events apparently occurred to cause the capsize. I believe once the lone survivor recovers both physically and mentally we'll get more details regarding the conditions and subsequent events leading to the tragedy.
Mike

 

[Rick Webb]

VHF Call Would Have Been Heard

Tow Boats antenna in Tampa is way up on top of a big tall condo I 've talked to them almost two hundred miles away. The Coast Guards anntena is several hundred feet up and likely would have caught them. The first night out a helicopter was almost over them they certainly would have heard them.

 

[godelescher]

Enough is enough

In October I lost five friends, good friends, basically family when my boat sank in the Bering Sea. I wasn't on board because I took the second half of the season off to deliver a boat to Peru.

The Katmai's sinking made national news and everybody talked about it for a little while. What went wrong? Who's at fault? Everybody has an opinion. "He should've done this" or "He should've done that". The truth is, you're all armchair quaterbacks. You have no idea what happened or why it happened. You're just using this forum to bloviate about what fine seamen you are. What you don't realize is that in exchange for the few seconds of feeling good about your nautical prowess (as you sit in your comfortable chair in the den), the families and friends will be patrolling the internet forever looking for anything they can find about the tragedy. Even today, five months later I still check the news everyday for updates; have the found Carlos or Bob's body yet? Has the marine board of investigations released its report yet? Anything at all.

And do you know what I find? Everyday? Everytime I look for answers? I find sites just like this one. I find complete strangers who reach unfounded unjustified conclusions about a situation they were never in.

What you don't realize, what none of you have realized is that the families of those lost will eventually find their way to this site, to this forum, to this page. They will read what you've written about their loved one's stupidity, about his drunkeness, about his weaknesses and about you'd never make such an error in judgement. They'll read all of this and it will hurt them as deeply as it does as when I read a complete stranger's account of what happened to my best friends.

So pat yourselves on the back for your incredible show of good sense by not being out at sea that day. Tell yourselves how you would never take the chance of leaving the dock without wearing a survival suit with one hand holding the epirb and the other poised to speed dial the coast guard. It's not important how hurtful it might be, so long as you can express the opinion that you've devoted whole minutes of your life to forming.

 

[Rick Webb]

Never Can nor Will ever be Enough

If just one person reads this thread and puts flares in his vest, buys an EPRB or a handheld VHF, takes a a boating class, or double checks the weather and thinks twice about going out. At that point all of this bloviating has merit and in a very small way mitigates the loss of these young men. While profoundly sad there were without question any number of unfortunate decision points that could have altered the outcome of this tragedy. I know the families involved would gain some solace in hearing that another learned from the loss of their loved one and another tragedy was prevented. Am I on a high horse here? Damn straight a great big white stallion of one. If we do not learn from the mistakes of those who went before we are going to do it all over again, that would be even more sad.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Things happen when people go to sea. No matter how safe we make things there is still a risk when you cast away your lines.

The key is to look back on things that others have done and try to avoid those mistakes. If we do not look at history and ask questions about it then we are destined to relive it again.

To come on a board and blast its members without knowing much about them or the dynamics of the board is like jumping the gun. I realize that you have a lot of pain that you are experiencing from a tragity at sea that has directly affected you but also realize that people want to learn why things happen and suggest ways to avoid them in order to prevent tragities. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

If I go to sea and something happens, I hope that people learn from any mistake that I made so that they aren't in the same boat someday.

 

[larryw]

godelescher-
Who are you, anyway? you sign on as a guest; no one can look at your profile. I think you're a troll, trying to make people feel bad to pump yourself up. I don't believe you had anything to do with that fish boat at all.

 

[TimCup]

Enough is Enough? Never.

There will never be enough if learning is involved. The closest thing to "bloviating" I read was me, stating I would never sail out of sight of land with proper emergency equipment (ssb, epirb). I stand by that statement. I live 10 miles from the launch point of that boat, and saw first hand what the weather was like. The front DID come in several hours sooner than I anticipated, and that was backed up in the St Petersburg Times in the story of the boat that was following behind them to the fishing grounds (in a 19 ft boat) and turned around before lunch time because the wind and waves were growing.

There ARE exceptional seamen on this forum, but unless you regularly visit it, it's hard to know who's who. But there are many here I respect, and several I would believe if they told me I was doing something stupid (not a big stretch).

Based on your tirade, I believe you have a good idea of what you're doing on a boat, but the most common thread that is repeated on this forum is "I'm new to sailing and". Those people specifically, and others more generally, learn regularly from the "fine seamen" you refer to. Let's face facts- most people don't want their ignorance to show, especially by asking what might be construed as a "dumb question". They'll only learn when someone else has the courage to admit their ignorance.

Many of these stories end in tragedy for no good reason. Locally, it seems they're interviewing everyone that's ever survived a sinking. Most made simple mistakes. Six people fishing in perfect weather are knee deep in water before anyone notices. They go crazy trying to bail, but noone looks for the leak.. 12 Hours in the water, at night, because a thru hull broke. For want of a bung a boat was lost...

I'm sorry for your loss. Often times being a survivor is difficult. Please try and keep things in perspective. This was a tragedy. If others can learn from it, at least it won't be waste, too.


cup

 

[Stu Jackson]

Like anything else, there are many points of view

to basic issues of good seamanship, danger and preparedness. I applaud all of your for your differing input and opinions.

I was outside the Golden Gate a few months ago with a friend. We'd been sailing (cruising and racing) together, irregularly, for many years. He was one of those "naturals" when it comes to steering - some folks "have it" and some "just never get it." Conditions were four to six foot seas at 12 to 15 seconds, 15 knot winds, nothing outrageous, but still challenging while safe.

A few days after the trip I received a very long email from him asking about our preparedness and whether we really should have been out there at all, and what we would have done had something untoward occurred. I was quite comfortable, evidently he was not, whether upon reflection or at the time.

The purpose of the trip was to expose him to more challenging sea conditions, since he had sailed with me earlier in the year all the way to the Farallone Islands, 25 miles out and back, and this day we hadn't even gone much more than 3 miles out. He was right, in that I had figured that since he'd been sailing every week with friends on another boat, a C30, that he's learned quite a bit during those outings.

I was wrong, in that we hadn't practiced MOB and heave to with him. I also explained to him that Monday morning quarterbacking was counterproductive and that he perhaps could have and maybe should have mentioned it to me at the time, not later, although mentioning it all was very important. Lessons learned? You betcha! Our next trip will be me throwing myself overboard and seeing how he does --- NOT! You bet we'll do some practicing, and he can learn more and more. I appreciated his input very much.

I have two simple rules on board to KISS:

1. One hand for yourself, one hand for the ship (hang on all the time)

2. Please do what I request right away and feel free to ask any and all questions immediately thereafter.

He held on, but didn't ask. It's hard to read minds, but I did listen carefully to his (later) concerns and learned something very important, too.

And as we all do with these kinda threads.

 

[Ross in Tampa]

I spoke with the investigator last night. The report will be released tomorrow. Keep your ears open, I will update when I have the ok to do so.