90 days ago I had the stiching come loose on the UV cover at the foot of my jib on my Hunter 376. I called UK Sails here in SD (its a UK sail) to do the repair. They removed the sail from my boat and repaired it and reinstalled it. (note: I live in Phoenix so its easier to have them pick up the sail when they are able). Anyway, while out sailing today the jib came apart at the head where the halyard attaches leaving me with my halyard at the top of the mast. My inspection showed the attachment point was badly worn and the sun had done some damage too to the attahcment point. My question is, shouldnt the UK guys have noticed this?? I dont mind paying for the repair, but I wish it would have been done earlier. Having the halyard stuck up top really annoys me. ANyway I've got a call into Ray at UK sails in san diego. Thanks for allowing me to "vent". Bob F.
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I think so.
Seems like basic service. I brought a sail back to Sobstad once for a loose thread. They re-stitched half the sail, just to be sure. Same basic fee.
Seems like basic service. I brought a sail back to Sobstad once for a loose thread. They re-stitched half the sail, just to be sure. Same basic fee.
Picky?
They should have noticed it, but since they didn't you are stuck. My sail maker always looks at the entire sail...and I alway tell him to fix what ever he thinks need fixing.
They should have noticed it, but since they didn't you are stuck. My sail maker always looks at the entire sail...and I alway tell him to fix what ever he thinks need fixing.
What did you ask for?
Compare what you asked for with what you got. If the request was to inspect the entire sail for damage and needed repairs and they missed it, they should help out and make the repair for no more than the extra it would have cost if they had noticed it the first time. If the request was to just repair the damage that you told them about then you are on your own. When was the last time you had the sail off to inspect it yourself? Is it possible that the loft could have damaged the sail when they put it back on your boat? I'm sure you would have asked them to repair any damage that you had found the last time you inspected the sail.
Compare what you asked for with what you got. If the request was to inspect the entire sail for damage and needed repairs and they missed it, they should help out and make the repair for no more than the extra it would have cost if they had noticed it the first time. If the request was to just repair the damage that you told them about then you are on your own. When was the last time you had the sail off to inspect it yourself? Is it possible that the loft could have damaged the sail when they put it back on your boat? I'm sure you would have asked them to repair any damage that you had found the last time you inspected the sail.
Wait a minute....
Sail care is the owners responsibility. You should know that sails exposed to UV degrade. This is not a UK problem this was neglect to protect against UV. They can only notice it if you submit the sail for a check up. The only way that UK should be responsible is if the furled sail was not protected as a result of the thier neglect in design. r.w.landau
Sail care is the owners responsibility. You should know that sails exposed to UV degrade. This is not a UK problem this was neglect to protect against UV. They can only notice it if you submit the sail for a check up. The only way that UK should be responsible is if the furled sail was not protected as a result of the thier neglect in design. r.w.landau
I feel your pain
How old is your sail? Is it at the point where it is time to repalce it and this last incident was the final message to you? I don't think your sail loft is to blame. You asked for a repair at the foot - not the head. Some lofts will inspect the entire sail every time you bring it in. Apparently your loft does not. If you want that service, I would look to a new loft for you future business and not push this present issue. Live and learn.
How old is your sail? Is it at the point where it is time to repalce it and this last incident was the final message to you? I don't think your sail loft is to blame. You asked for a repair at the foot - not the head. Some lofts will inspect the entire sail every time you bring it in. Apparently your loft does not. If you want that service, I would look to a new loft for you future business and not push this present issue. Live and learn.
If your sail is up all the time...
Then it is hard for you to inspect it, right? So even though the comments that it is your responsiblity are true, it this case I would think that you are excused. It is not the responsibility of UK to inspect your sails unless you ask them to. If they did so and told you of potential problmes, then that is excellent customer service. I would recommend that the next time you need repairs on you rags, you might ask the sail maker to give a good look over. I know when I will follow this advise my self in the near future. IMHO UK Sails in SD, hmmm... I have to look them up. Thanks.
Then it is hard for you to inspect it, right? So even though the comments that it is your responsiblity are true, it this case I would think that you are excused. It is not the responsibility of UK to inspect your sails unless you ask them to. If they did so and told you of potential problmes, then that is excellent customer service. I would recommend that the next time you need repairs on you rags, you might ask the sail maker to give a good look over. I know when I will follow this advise my self in the near future. IMHO UK Sails in SD, hmmm... I have to look them up. Thanks.
Not at all, they dropped the ball.
The first thing that should have happened when that sail was received at the shop was to undergo a complete inspection by a competent sail maker and getting back to you with an estimate and recommendations. Obviously there is either no inspection or the sail person and his manager are not worth their salt. The problem nowdays is that some of these companies do not assign responsibility for a complete job. You probably had 3 to 5 people involved from the person who took your order, the one that did the actual sewing, to the one that retreived and returned the sail. I bet you they all thought it was everybody elses job to talk to you. Write a letter to the President of the company and let this person know how dissapointed you are with their service and point out all the inconveniences that you suffered when no one took the time to inform you that there were other worn parts on the sail that should have been repaired. (the mechanics at your local muffler shop would have been tripping all over each other to call and sell you something else) If you do not receive a reasonable answer from the President then find yourself another sail loft. What is scary is that consumers are starting to accept this lack of good service as normal, thus continuing to lower the bar.
The first thing that should have happened when that sail was received at the shop was to undergo a complete inspection by a competent sail maker and getting back to you with an estimate and recommendations. Obviously there is either no inspection or the sail person and his manager are not worth their salt. The problem nowdays is that some of these companies do not assign responsibility for a complete job. You probably had 3 to 5 people involved from the person who took your order, the one that did the actual sewing, to the one that retreived and returned the sail. I bet you they all thought it was everybody elses job to talk to you. Write a letter to the President of the company and let this person know how dissapointed you are with their service and point out all the inconveniences that you suffered when no one took the time to inform you that there were other worn parts on the sail that should have been repaired. (the mechanics at your local muffler shop would have been tripping all over each other to call and sell you something else) If you do not receive a reasonable answer from the President then find yourself another sail loft. What is scary is that consumers are starting to accept this lack of good service as normal, thus continuing to lower the bar.
Sometimes
when I take the car in for an oil change, all I want is an oil change and I get irritated when the service manager tries to sell me a bunch of stuff I really don't want. Other times I take the same car to a local outfit and tell them to check everything and show me what they found. Believe me--they find it! My point is that it is my car and I'm the one to decide on what level of service I want. If the sailmaker does a thorough inspection of every sail they take in they have to add that to the price. For some folks this is OK and even expected. For others it can set off a heated argument resulting in bad feelings and a loss of a customer. The sailmaker has no way of knowing what level of expertise the customer has. If an expert customer has inspected the sail him/her self they may not want the sailmaker to go over the same ground. If a less skilled person has a sail that is beginning to come apart they would be wise to ask the sailmaker for a full inspection.
when I take the car in for an oil change, all I want is an oil change and I get irritated when the service manager tries to sell me a bunch of stuff I really don't want. Other times I take the same car to a local outfit and tell them to check everything and show me what they found. Believe me--they find it! My point is that it is my car and I'm the one to decide on what level of service I want. If the sailmaker does a thorough inspection of every sail they take in they have to add that to the price. For some folks this is OK and even expected. For others it can set off a heated argument resulting in bad feelings and a loss of a customer. The sailmaker has no way of knowing what level of expertise the customer has. If an expert customer has inspected the sail him/her self they may not want the sailmaker to go over the same ground. If a less skilled person has a sail that is beginning to come apart they would be wise to ask the sailmaker for a full inspection.
Sounds to me like
another case of the customer and the sail loft did not communicate each others expectations. People need to be clear on what they want/expect to be done.Most vendors would be more then happy to acclimate a customer if requested but there are a lot who have gotten burned by customers also.IMO you got what you asked for,the foot was repaired. Also I question the 90 day gap between the foot stitching repair and the stitching at the head coming apart. Three months is almost any entire boating season in Northern Canada. The head may have been marginal 90 days ago and with out knowing how often you sail(after all there are some boats that don't go out in 90 days) who knows how long it may have been good for. Next time I would suggest that you request a full inspection/evaluation and have them call with a estimated cost to make any other repairs needed or give the sail loft the OK to make any and all needed repairs ahead of time. I would also give the loft some idea of your expectations that you want the sail "100%" or just a "get thru until next year type" of inspection. Another thought come to mind here in that the person taking the sail down is not always the person making the repair and the repair depending on how it was folded could have been made with out unfolding the entire sail. As a loft owner are you going to send a helper or a craftsman to remove the sail? Apparently the sail was put back on the boat with out incident still think the 90 days is a long time given what the sun can do and with a lot of usage what wear and tear(no pun intended) can do. As with most situations like this you only get what you pay for.
another case of the customer and the sail loft did not communicate each others expectations. People need to be clear on what they want/expect to be done.Most vendors would be more then happy to acclimate a customer if requested but there are a lot who have gotten burned by customers also.IMO you got what you asked for,the foot was repaired. Also I question the 90 day gap between the foot stitching repair and the stitching at the head coming apart. Three months is almost any entire boating season in Northern Canada. The head may have been marginal 90 days ago and with out knowing how often you sail(after all there are some boats that don't go out in 90 days) who knows how long it may have been good for. Next time I would suggest that you request a full inspection/evaluation and have them call with a estimated cost to make any other repairs needed or give the sail loft the OK to make any and all needed repairs ahead of time. I would also give the loft some idea of your expectations that you want the sail "100%" or just a "get thru until next year type" of inspection. Another thought come to mind here in that the person taking the sail down is not always the person making the repair and the repair depending on how it was folded could have been made with out unfolding the entire sail. As a loft owner are you going to send a helper or a craftsman to remove the sail? Apparently the sail was put back on the boat with out incident still think the 90 days is a long time given what the sun can do and with a lot of usage what wear and tear(no pun intended) can do. As with most situations like this you only get what you pay for.
heres what i do.....
If I'm going through the effort to have a sail repaired, I always ask them to check the entire sail over and fix anything that isn't right. It avoids the situation that your in.
If I'm going through the effort to have a sail repaired, I always ask them to check the entire sail over and fix anything that isn't right. It avoids the situation that your in.
SailCare
I used SailCare a couple of years ago and when they received my main and genoa, they contacted me with suggestions for what they thought needed fixing and we agreed to a price before any work was done. Very satisfied with the results.
I used SailCare a couple of years ago and when they received my main and genoa, they contacted me with suggestions for what they thought needed fixing and we agreed to a price before any work was done. Very satisfied with the results.
Let me expand on my original post. Please
OK, the boat is in San Diego. The loft is in San Diego. (sunny) They get a call from an owner who is NOT in the area. They remove the sail after finding the UV damage at the toe. AND THAT'S ALL THEY REPAIR!? If a sail is going to die in 90 days, a conventional sail would have shown the degradation. They should have checked the top if they found damage at the bottom for gods sake. No excuse. They should at least cut him a deal for repairs. They should have known to look upstairs. Oops, repeating myself.
OK, the boat is in San Diego. The loft is in San Diego. (sunny) They get a call from an owner who is NOT in the area. They remove the sail after finding the UV damage at the toe. AND THAT'S ALL THEY REPAIR!? If a sail is going to die in 90 days, a conventional sail would have shown the degradation. They should have checked the top if they found damage at the bottom for gods sake. No excuse. They should at least cut him a deal for repairs. They should have known to look upstairs. Oops, repeating myself.
I am amazed
that so many on this BB take sloppy work for granted. I am in the wrong field. I should get into a marine business. It is apparently OK to do half a job. Irresponsibility is irresponsibility. There is no excuse. There is no reason. When the sail shop removed the sail, the dummy could see the overall condition. When the next dummy unrolled the sail, he could see the general condition. When the next dummy repaired the foot, he could see the general condition...........unless the dummies were blind. Well, then, I guess it is OK.
that so many on this BB take sloppy work for granted. I am in the wrong field. I should get into a marine business. It is apparently OK to do half a job. Irresponsibility is irresponsibility. There is no excuse. There is no reason. When the sail shop removed the sail, the dummy could see the overall condition. When the next dummy unrolled the sail, he could see the general condition. When the next dummy repaired the foot, he could see the general condition...........unless the dummies were blind. Well, then, I guess it is OK.
LMAO
"There is no excuse. There is no reason. When the sail shop removed the sail, the dummy could see the overall condition. When the next dummy unrolled the sail, he could see the general condition. When the next dummy repaired the foot, he could see the general condition...........unless the dummies were blind. Well, then, I guess it is OK." Dummy #1 goes to a boat that has been sitting in it's slip for months. The half inflated dinghy on the foredeck and hardware that hasn't been used in months makes the job of removing the sail take 3 times as long as it should. The sail is near the end of it's useful life and the loose stitching on the foot is the least of it's problems. Dummy #2 gets the order to repair the stitching at the foot of the sail, lays the sail out and asks his boss "Why am I working on this? It's a waste of time." The boss says, "The owner called and wanted the foot repaired, I offered to do a full inspection and report and was told, just fix the foot." I'm sure that if the halyard had failed after being moved for the first time in 10 years it would be the sail lofts fault too? You might be amazed at what boat owners want done. You might be amazed at the attitude you get when you point out other needed repairs to owners. It is not always the service guy's fault.
"There is no excuse. There is no reason. When the sail shop removed the sail, the dummy could see the overall condition. When the next dummy unrolled the sail, he could see the general condition. When the next dummy repaired the foot, he could see the general condition...........unless the dummies were blind. Well, then, I guess it is OK." Dummy #1 goes to a boat that has been sitting in it's slip for months. The half inflated dinghy on the foredeck and hardware that hasn't been used in months makes the job of removing the sail take 3 times as long as it should. The sail is near the end of it's useful life and the loose stitching on the foot is the least of it's problems. Dummy #2 gets the order to repair the stitching at the foot of the sail, lays the sail out and asks his boss "Why am I working on this? It's a waste of time." The boss says, "The owner called and wanted the foot repaired, I offered to do a full inspection and report and was told, just fix the foot." I'm sure that if the halyard had failed after being moved for the first time in 10 years it would be the sail lofts fault too? You might be amazed at what boat owners want done. You might be amazed at the attitude you get when you point out other needed repairs to owners. It is not always the service guy's fault.
I'd have to agree with bert and moody
the loft SHOULD have noticed the problem, BUT if they did what they agreed to do it's on you not them Good business would have been inspect it and to notify you of any problems and give you the option of having the repair done or skipped, but they are not obligated to inspect your sail unless that was in the agreement. (ordinarily most people would think the company was trying to get more money out of them) If you told them to fix everything that's wrong with it then yes they are responsible, if you said fix the foot, They aren't responsible for the head. I'm subbing for a company right now that has a $200,000 'hold' on a job (only 5% total job cost) for essentially the same thing, owner claims the contractor should have noticed and taken care of certain issues. Ken
the loft SHOULD have noticed the problem, BUT if they did what they agreed to do it's on you not them Good business would have been inspect it and to notify you of any problems and give you the option of having the repair done or skipped, but they are not obligated to inspect your sail unless that was in the agreement. (ordinarily most people would think the company was trying to get more money out of them) If you told them to fix everything that's wrong with it then yes they are responsible, if you said fix the foot, They aren't responsible for the head. I'm subbing for a company right now that has a $200,000 'hold' on a job (only 5% total job cost) for essentially the same thing, owner claims the contractor should have noticed and taken care of certain issues. Ken
Well, our sailing sport is certainly art. And
sail making uses a great deal of science, but it's still also art and experience. I'd find a different loft. P.S. Bob was your boat left trashed like that? And lookup Keith Lawrence with North Sails. He left Sobstad in Seattle for sunshine in San Diego. He'll take care of you. Don't bother mentioning me, I'm small fish.
sail making uses a great deal of science, but it's still also art and experience. I'd find a different loft. P.S. Bob was your boat left trashed like that?
And lookup Keith Lawrence with North Sails. He left Sobstad in Seattle for sunshine in San Diego. He'll take care of you. Don't bother mentioning me, I'm small fish. Tough call, but...
Isn't it in the sail loft's best interest to take a couple of minutes to inspect the sail at high stress areas and report potential problems to the customer? He can always deny the repairs, but if he okays them, the loft makes a little more on the deal. How much time/trouble is involved in that process, with the sail already in the shop, versus waiting for new business to come walking in off the street? Seems like plain good business to me. I suspect 90 days of SD sun is tougher on a sail than 90 days in Seattle, though.
Isn't it in the sail loft's best interest to take a couple of minutes to inspect the sail at high stress areas and report potential problems to the customer? He can always deny the repairs, but if he okays them, the loft makes a little more on the deal. How much time/trouble is involved in that process, with the sail already in the shop, versus waiting for new business to come walking in off the street? Seems like plain good business to me. I suspect 90 days of SD sun is tougher on a sail than 90 days in Seattle, though.
No
to answer your question, you are not being too picky. Common sense would tell a good sailmaker to look over the sail for other areas in need of repair, especially a sail where the owner is out of town. If one area is worn, most likely there are others in the same condition. These sailmakers have huge areas where they lay the entire sail out flat and can see the whole thing...bad areas should be very easy to spot. I'd be looking for a new sailmaker.
to answer your question, you are not being too picky. Common sense would tell a good sailmaker to look over the sail for other areas in need of repair, especially a sail where the owner is out of town. If one area is worn, most likely there are others in the same condition. These sailmakers have huge areas where they lay the entire sail out flat and can see the whole thing...bad areas should be very easy to spot. I'd be looking for a new sailmaker.
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