Ignition switch headache...

[rpell1@msn.com]

Hi all,
While tackling the "Bear" of a job changing out the throttle and shifter cables on my '97 MKIII, my ignition switch fell apart in my hands as I attempted to start the engine. I cannot get back to my boat until next week and want to order a new switch. Mine is not mounted on the dash. It is mounted to the side of my pedestal mounted dash pod. The confusion lies with the need of a momentary glow-plug position as it applies to the number of positions required and whether or not I need the "flattened" sides on the switch barrel. None of the usual sources addresses these question. A part number and/or descriptive source would be greatly appreciated.
Incidentally, regarding my control cable change-out; Since I can't seem to remember the proper routing of the cables from the base of the pedestal to the access holes on the left and right sides of the steering compartment. I thought is was a cross-over configuration and was dumb enough not to take a photo to insure I got it right. Now I find the throttle cable is a little short and the shifter cable a little long, only by inches. I think this may be why there is a problem of inches. No, I did not mix the sizes. I carefully measured and marked both cables prior to installation.
I can go on and on with suggestions on how to make this process so much easier but I won't. If anyone needs details of the problems and solutions I found, I will be happy to help.

Thanks all.
Stay well and Happy Sailing....

 

[Calif. Ted]

I've replaced them in the pods on a 270 & 320, using a 3 position Cole-Hersee ignition switch from the local auto/marine parts store, I think it is model 550.
Marine Switch 3 Position Ignition - Cole Hersee Australia

 

[weekendrken]

RP

the ignition switch is hersee switch #M-550
off / ignition (run) / momentary Start (preheat)
27.00 @ Defender

The weathertight boot for that is cole hersee #83288-BP
7.50 @ Defender

Both in stock.

that said, the ignition switch SHOULD not be used for preheat (unless your preheat circuit uses a relay) because it’s not rated for that large current (and burns the contacts.)
Is it an xpb?

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thank you both for the info. I have a 25XPA. There is no pre-heat button or any other way to pre-heat, so I'm thinking there's probably a relay......that will keep me up at night until I find it.....thanks to you.

 

[weekendrken]

My apologies. I should have noted that the A series (eg, M25XPA) engines have the same backassward convoluted wiring scheme as the B series (eg, M25XPB) engines. When westerbeke bought Universal it started wiring the XP to the Westerbeke standard and called it the XPA. That switchover was both good and bad.
You have a solenoid that powers the preheat and powers the fuel pump while preheating.
Don’t preheat too long, the solenoid is NOT continuous duty and can easily burn out. You can replace it with a better one.

There’s a wealth of info on the XPA on the IC30A forum. Join us there also if you ever have any questions on it.

Cheers
kk

 

[weekendrken]

JUST to be clear, M-25s and XPs that use the key switch start position to preheat as you do will have no other preheat button, only a Start button. Those panels are pushing too much current through the key switch (unless they have added a relay, which IMO is not a good idea because it can burn up the glow plugs prematurely.). Basically the key sw should be wired to START, and use a PB switch to preheat (it’s made for that amperage, the key switch is not.). That’s how panels were originally configured.
I HOPE you’ve done any must-do modifications to the engine.
Cheers

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thank you for the input. Since my engine starts after a 12 second "pre-heat" hold of the key, at temps as low as 40, I think it would be safe to say all should remain okay......I hope.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Those panels are pushing too much current through the key switch (unless they have added a relay, which IMO is not a good idea because it can burn up the glow plugs prematurely.)

That's only if you hold the glow plugs on for the 30 seconds you'd need without a solenoid. Once you install a solenoid (which is simply a relay), the power not longer needs to go up to the cockpit panel and thru the key switch.

Glow Plug Solenoid or Relay Installation for faster starting

Ken actually wrote this on that link: Also, per Mainesail, the glowplugs are 10-volt. Since the new setup will supply a full 12+ volts, don't lay into them for much more than 10-seconds at a time -- otherwise their life may be diminished. [added 7/2014 K Kloeber]

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thank you all.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

JUST to be clear, M-25s and XPs that use the key switch start position to preheat as you do will have no other preheat button, only a Start button. Those panels are pushing too much current through the key switch (unless they have added a relay, which IMO is not a good idea because it can burn up the glow plugs prematurely.). Basically the key sw should be wired to START, and use a PB switch to preheat (it’s made for that amperage, the key switch is not.). That’s how panels were originally configured.
I HOPE you’ve done any must-do modifications to the engine.
Cheers

the ignition switch is not made to handle either the starter solenoid or the glow plugs. They are typically rated at 7A The glow plugs pull 12A each and starter 35A initial and 10A afterwards.
Both benefit from relays. The glow plugs are fine if you decrease the time from 30-60 seconds to 10-15 seconds.

of note Seaward changed the glow plug position from a momentary toggle to the key switch when universal started putting in glow plug relay stock.

 

[weekendrken]

Hey LT
where did you get the spec for the pull-in current? Did you measure that - tho I can’t recall the precise value I was told it was much lower.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

On new starter test tag. The initial current is high because the solenoid must pull/push the starter gear onto the flywheel before it starts cranking ( unlike most starters that use a bendix to centrifugialy spin it out).

 

[miketcook]

This dialog was very helpful. A hot wire shorted and melted some wires at the instrument panel when I turned the key. No serious damage, as I smelled it and turned it off immediately. But obviously had to replace and rewire some wires. Was surprised the a fuse didn't blow somewhere, before wires melted. As a result, was planning on putting an in-line fuse below (somewhere accessible), but closer to the panel, and wasn't sure what amp fuse to use.
With the discussion on the Glow Plugs, will have to check if there's a relay involved.
With a relay, what's a suggested amperage? Without a relay, is another fuse out of the equation, based on above comments on draw?
'89 Cat 30, Universal XP25

 

[LeslieTroyer]

The fuse is typically 6-10" from the starter solenoid where it "protects" only that short pigtail. I put a 20A fuse where the power comes off the starter lug. There is often a 10A circuit breaker on the panel but that's for a blower. If you do put a fuse there - remember I have relays on both ignition and glow plugs so have very little current running up to the panel -

 

[weekendrken]

MC,
Understand that you don't NEED to install a relay -- that's only ONE option.

I rant against this because it's introducing one more failure point on a boat. We need to simplify, not complicate -- particularly when it's unnecessary.

A key switch rating is for making-breaking the current path (i.e., that's when current burns the contacts.) That's why the old points 'n condenser in auto distributors needed periodic replacing -- they were constantly making/breaking the circuit.

(IMO) the proper way to configure a panel is to:

Run the power to the (B terminal) of a good quality Off/Run position key switch
Different brands have different ratings. Once the key is on (contact made), preheat or the starter no longer burns the contacts.
(Some do away with the panel switch all together in favor of a master switch below.)

Distribute the power from the "I" terminal to proper start and preheat PB switches, such as a Cole Hersee PB switch (rated 35a so plenty robust for preheat and start.)

The key reason I favor KISS (against adding unnecessary complications) is that relays DO occasionally fail, contacts DO occasionally burn, and wire terminals DO occasionally corrode and fail. So why add more of each hem into the mix?

Ooops, my starter doesn't engage -- so it is my key switch or now the relay I added?
Why do it?

Time and again those installing the preheat relay MOD, boast that it reduces 10 or 15 seconds of preheat time, or that it assures "starting in colder weather."
The glow plugs work quite well in cold weather w/o a relay -- you simply (PER KUBOTA's INSTRUCTIONS) preheat a little longer. I cannot for the life of me understand the obsession with cutting the preheat time from say, a completely unreasonable 20 seconds down to a MUCH more palatable 10 seconds. And then wait for the engine to warm up and to ready the boat, lines, fenders, beer, and whatnot else before shoving off. Maybe 15 minutes at a minimum?

To put this in crystal-clear perspective, we install a relay to reduce the prep time from 15.33 minutes, down to 15.17 minutes. Wow. Time to buy a powerboat if 0.16 minutes is critical.

Just IMO.

 

[weekendrken]

A hot wire shorted and melted some wires at the instrument panel when I turned the key. No serious damage, as I smelled it and turned it off immediately. But obviously had to replace and rewire some wires.

As a result, was planning on putting an in-line fuse below (somewhere accessible), but closer to the panel, and wasn't sure what amp fuse to use.

MC

There's 3 overcurrent protection that should be on the boat,
1) A fuse on the power supply to the panel, per ABYC, within 7" of the solenoid B post.
This protects the harness from the power source TO the panel, and the preheat and starter wires coming BACK TO the engine.

2) A PB breaker on the panel.
This is wired to protect all the wiring ON the panel, gauges, and the blower, and the fuel pump and alternator field excite wires BACK TO the engine.

3) A fuse on the S wire, right before the solenoid.
This is additional protection should the start switch stick ON -- so the starter run-on doesn't burn up the wiring/cables at the engine (typically this stuck-on happened w/ the key start switch, rather than the PB switch.)

I explain this here:

New engine panel and wire harness - question on in-line fuse

New engine panel and wire harness - question on in-line fuse

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