I need some help with an electrical problem. I'd been away from the boat for about 6 weeks, and upon returning I found I'd left the key in the key switch in the ON position. The boat was on shore power, so the batteries were fine, but when I pressed the button to start the motor, no cranking occurred. The fuel gauge, which comes to life when you turn the key on, went to empty when I hit the engine start button, as if pressing the engine start switch shorted out the circuit. When I would operate the key switch, it didn't act right, and didn't turn ON regularly. I had to turn the key several times to get a connection. I wanted to test the engine start switch, so I jumped across the terminals and got a spark, but no cranking. Upon further reflection, I got to thinking that the key switch may have been partially shorted, so when I jumpered across the engine start switch, there was a spark but no cranking. Today I went back to the boat and took the key switch out of the loop, but no help. In fact, the fuel gauge didn't come to life, and it seemed that I had no power at all to that circuit. All other electrical apparatus on the boat work fine, and the batteries have a full charge. Because I have no power at the switch, I am concerned that a fuse has blown, but I cannot find a fuse anywhere. I tried to follow the wires down the console and through the boat, but can't see them everywhere, so I don't know if there is a fuse inline somewhere. So, I am wondering if there is a fuse protecting the key switch/start button circuit? I am also wondering if anyone can point me to a schematic for this circuit? I've gone through the manual thoroughly, and can find no drawing for any of the circuits in the console. All advice appreciated!
Ignition short?
- Thread starter Sailor Joe20804
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That's a very detailed description of your problem
but what engine are you running. Assuming it's a Yanmar built in the last 20 years, look for the fuse in a yellow in-line plastic holder, located at the rear of the alternator. But leaving the key on shouldn't blow the fuse. My concern is why didn't the alarm sound when the key was on with no engine running? The wiring for a Yanmar is on-line here in the archives and in your shop manual but not the owners/operation manual. You do have a Yanmar, right? Another test, jump the starter solenoid. That should crank the engine even without a fuse. Keep digging and let us know. Good luck but you'll be OK. There isn't anything that fries with the key left on, except maybe the ENGINE ALARM. (maybe a neighbor or the yard personnel came aboard and ripped out something. Is your battery selector switch in the proper position? Whew!
but what engine are you running. Assuming it's a Yanmar built in the last 20 years, look for the fuse in a yellow in-line plastic holder, located at the rear of the alternator. But leaving the key on shouldn't blow the fuse. My concern is why didn't the alarm sound when the key was on with no engine running? The wiring for a Yanmar is on-line here in the archives and in your shop manual but not the owners/operation manual. You do have a Yanmar, right? Another test, jump the starter solenoid. That should crank the engine even without a fuse. Keep digging and let us know. Good luck but you'll be OK. There isn't anything that fries with the key left on, except maybe the ENGINE ALARM. (maybe a neighbor or the yard personnel came aboard and ripped out something. Is your battery selector switch in the proper position? Whew!
Ignition short
In addition to Fred's suggestion, you may also want to check your batteries. If you jumped the terminals, got a spark but no cranking, it sounds to me like your batteries don't have enough cranking amps for some reason or other. You could have fully charged batteries with 12.8v and still have not enough cranking amps to get the engine to turn over. If all else fails, and you are sure a fuse isn't blown, you just may want to beg, borrow, or buy a new battery and give it a try.
In addition to Fred's suggestion, you may also want to check your batteries. If you jumped the terminals, got a spark but no cranking, it sounds to me like your batteries don't have enough cranking amps for some reason or other. You could have fully charged batteries with 12.8v and still have not enough cranking amps to get the engine to turn over. If all else fails, and you are sure a fuse isn't blown, you just may want to beg, borrow, or buy a new battery and give it a try.
Yep, it's a Yanmar
Sorry for leaving that out! 2GM20F. The alarm didn't sound because when my dealer installed the oil and temp gauges, he undid the alarm. I'll get the wiring diagram for the Yanmar and go searching. Thanks a ton for the information, I'll let you know what I find.
Sorry for leaving that out! 2GM20F. The alarm didn't sound because when my dealer installed the oil and temp gauges, he undid the alarm. I'll get the wiring diagram for the Yanmar and go searching. Thanks a ton for the information, I'll let you know what I find.
Gauges
Joe, Hook the alarms back up. How much time do you actually spend looking at the gauges. Your first indication of a problem may be the motor stopping. Don't misunderstand, the gauges are great, just have the alarms also. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Joe, Hook the alarms back up. How much time do you actually spend looking at the gauges. Your first indication of a problem may be the motor stopping. Don't misunderstand, the gauges are great, just have the alarms also. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
could be a dirty ground!!
bad grounds do crazy stuff in cars and boats, check your engine ground and see if it looks a little on the green side. regards, mike
bad grounds do crazy stuff in cars and boats, check your engine ground and see if it looks a little on the green side. regards, mike
Try starting at the motor side.
You may want to try starting the search for the problem at the motor side. Be sure that the engine will turn over by jumping the starter. If that works, you may want to put a multi meter on the ignition wife and see if you are getting power TO the key. I would have a feeling that you may have a bad switch (which may or may not have anything to do with leaving it on). Be sure to clean all the contact on the ignition circut. You should also be able to jumper the wires at the ignition switch without using the key.
You may want to try starting the search for the problem at the motor side. Be sure that the engine will turn over by jumping the starter. If that works, you may want to put a multi meter on the ignition wife and see if you are getting power TO the key. I would have a feeling that you may have a bad switch (which may or may not have anything to do with leaving it on). Be sure to clean all the contact on the ignition circut. You should also be able to jumper the wires at the ignition switch without using the key.
Fuse
I have same 20GM20F,I am pretty sure there is one or two fuses close to the starter you can check. I also picked up a auto remote starter setup that works real good when trying to start motor down below away from cockpit,you can also jumpstart the starter by hand.
I have same 20GM20F,I am pretty sure there is one or two fuses close to the starter you can check. I also picked up a auto remote starter setup that works real good when trying to start motor down below away from cockpit,you can also jumpstart the starter by hand.
Fuses and wires
When I look at the starter on the engine, I see a 2 gauge (big honkin') red wire and a 2 gauge yellow wire. Obviously those bad boys are needed due to the amps the starter draws. Now up at the console, the starter button has 2 smallish wires on it, maybe 10 or 12 gauge. What is the mechanism that causes the starter to draw on the the big 2-guage when you press the starter button and connect the 2 smaller wires? I'm pretty convinced I've shorted out or blown a fuse in those smaller wires connected to the start button. I have bypassed the key switch, but that was _after_ I tried jumping across the starter button and saw the spark that I suspect was something shorting out due to a defect in the key switch, so taking the defective key switch out of the now dead circuit didn't help.
When I look at the starter on the engine, I see a 2 gauge (big honkin') red wire and a 2 gauge yellow wire. Obviously those bad boys are needed due to the amps the starter draws. Now up at the console, the starter button has 2 smallish wires on it, maybe 10 or 12 gauge. What is the mechanism that causes the starter to draw on the the big 2-guage when you press the starter button and connect the 2 smaller wires? I'm pretty convinced I've shorted out or blown a fuse in those smaller wires connected to the start button. I have bypassed the key switch, but that was _after_ I tried jumping across the starter button and saw the spark that I suspect was something shorting out due to a defect in the key switch, so taking the defective key switch out of the now dead circuit didn't help.
in a nutshell
a starter usually has 2 components to it. The starter motor itself and the solenoid that transfers the power to it that engages it to spin and in turn spin the flyweel to the motor. Those 2 big honkin wires that goto the motor are your ground and positive feed. The solenoid will have at least one wire going to it which will be of a small gauge. By throwing power to that small wire, manually to be sure, the starter will turn over. If not, then either the solenoid or starter is bad. if the starter turns over, then reverse engineer the problem to the key by ohming out the wires and checking for any hidden fuses or visible fuses. By the time you get to the key, you'll have the problem solved.
a starter usually has 2 components to it. The starter motor itself and the solenoid that transfers the power to it that engages it to spin and in turn spin the flyweel to the motor. Those 2 big honkin wires that goto the motor are your ground and positive feed. The solenoid will have at least one wire going to it which will be of a small gauge. By throwing power to that small wire, manually to be sure, the starter will turn over. If not, then either the solenoid or starter is bad. if the starter turns over, then reverse engineer the problem to the key by ohming out the wires and checking for any hidden fuses or visible fuses. By the time you get to the key, you'll have the problem solved.
forgot one thing
forgot to mention that if you don't have power at those 2 big honkin leads, then track it back to your battery switch and ultimately your batteries. Without power there, the solenoid will in effect, not be operational. If or when you throw power to the solenoid manually and hear a clicking with a thump noise, then the solenoid is good, but the starter is probably bad or you have a weak ground.
forgot to mention that if you don't have power at those 2 big honkin leads, then track it back to your battery switch and ultimately your batteries. Without power there, the solenoid will in effect, not be operational. If or when you throw power to the solenoid manually and hear a clicking with a thump noise, then the solenoid is good, but the starter is probably bad or you have a weak ground.
Where's the solenoid?
Thanks all for the support! Does anyone know where on a 2GM20F / Hunter 320 I might find the solenoid? Does anyone know if it is fuse-protected and where the fuse is?
Thanks all for the support! Does anyone know where on a 2GM20F / Hunter 320 I might find the solenoid? Does anyone know if it is fuse-protected and where the fuse is?
starter solenoid
Joe, the starter solenoid is mounted on the starter, it's the maybe 3" dia cylinder that also throws the starter gear into engagement when energized. Look for that inline fuse in the wire bundle behind the alternator-it may be hard to see, they paint ALL the wires when they finish assembling the engine
Joe, the starter solenoid is mounted on the starter, it's the maybe 3" dia cylinder that also throws the starter gear into engagement when energized. Look for that inline fuse in the wire bundle behind the alternator-it may be hard to see, they paint ALL the wires when they finish assembling the engine
Joe,
seriously, no offense, but,,,,if you don't know where the starter solenoid is, or,,,your leed post calls the problem 'a short', well then,,, you need to get someone on site to check out the problem. To be brief, a short would have burned down your boat right after you left it (or blown the fuse behind the alternator) and the solenoid is where the big honking red wire is connected. (at the engine, not the batteries) Honestly, this is first year auto shop trouble shooting. It's probably best to get help from a pro, on-site.
seriously, no offense, but,,,,if you don't know where the starter solenoid is, or,,,your leed post calls the problem 'a short', well then,,, you need to get someone on site to check out the problem. To be brief, a short would have burned down your boat right after you left it (or blown the fuse behind the alternator) and the solenoid is where the big honking red wire is connected. (at the engine, not the batteries) Honestly, this is first year auto shop trouble shooting. It's probably best to get help from a pro, on-site.
Ow
Fred, you said no offense, so I won't take any, but that "first year auto shop" comment was a little harsh. Your advice is good, and I know I sound pretty ignorant in this area. Truth is, I'm not too bad at diagnosing 12V system problems, but I've never had to mess with a starter before (Have always had outboards with pull starts). I'm not feeling too dangerous because the problem is with the "small wires" that go to the console/start button and down to the solenoid, not the "big wires" that might scare me. Since I've not messed with a starter before I didn't know where the solenoid was, and I needed to know that so I could start to trace the "small wires" from the switch and see where the problem is. I know you didn't mean any offense. It's near impossible to get any idea of what a person knows based on a few short posts anyway. At least I'm learning.
Fred, you said no offense, so I won't take any, but that "first year auto shop" comment was a little harsh. Your advice is good, and I know I sound pretty ignorant in this area. Truth is, I'm not too bad at diagnosing 12V system problems, but I've never had to mess with a starter before (Have always had outboards with pull starts). I'm not feeling too dangerous because the problem is with the "small wires" that go to the console/start button and down to the solenoid, not the "big wires" that might scare me. Since I've not messed with a starter before I didn't know where the solenoid was, and I needed to know that so I could start to trace the "small wires" from the switch and see where the problem is. I know you didn't mean any offense. It's near impossible to get any idea of what a person knows based on a few short posts anyway. At least I'm learning.
Joe
Did you try jump starting at the starter or check the fuse in the wire harness behind the alternator going toward the starter. I have heard the push to start button do go bad. I have the 2001 2GM20F model yanmar in my hunter the same one you have. nick
Did you try jump starting at the starter or check the fuse in the wire harness behind the alternator going toward the starter. I have heard the push to start button do go bad. I have the 2001 2GM20F model yanmar in my hunter the same one you have. nick
Joe, again, no offense,
but it's tough explaining this stuff on line when in all likelihood the problem can be fixed in seconds by a knowledgeable person. I'm sure you would do as I would when hiring a 'consultant'; watch every move he makes so you don't have to hire him again. And as you know, we are a product of our past. When I started my first year auto-shop class in high school, that old bastard of a teacher I had would have run me right out of class if I didn't already have a working knowledge of cars. And I was only 15. I shudder to think of what he would have done to a nerd. Oops, I didn't mean you are a nerd! Oh boy, I better stop. The guys here have given you all the information you need to solve the problem. Do this; 1. Check voltage at the big honkin red wire. If none, get some. It must be there. Turn on the battery selector switch. 2. Jump the big honkin red wire to the little wire next to it on the solenoid. Use a screwdriver. Make the connection hard and fast. If all connections are good the engine will crank. WARNING! This can be dangerous if you are not experienced and aren't ready. Keep away from moving parts. 3. If the engine doesn't turnover, check the big honkin yellow wire for a good connection at the engine. 4. Now shut off the engine because it should be running or close to it unless the solenoid is bad. VERY unlikely in your case. Then try the start button again. This time you have to turn on the key. 5. If nothing happens check voltage at the back of the key switch. If no voltage coming in, then find and check the fuse behind the alternator. Oh hell, replace it. That's all that is likely to be wrong in your case. Other possibilities include a disconnected source on the fuse wire and bad connections in the junction plug(s) to the control panel. 6. If voltage is good, into the key switch but not good on the other side (with the key on) replace the switch. Same for the start button. The power out from the start button goes to the exact same place as the screwdriver did to crank the engine. And it's getting its' power from the same place as the screwdriver; the big honkin red wire. On my engine, I wired a start button below so I could crank without using a screwdriver. Photo #46 and #118 on my web site among others.
but it's tough explaining this stuff on line when in all likelihood the problem can be fixed in seconds by a knowledgeable person. I'm sure you would do as I would when hiring a 'consultant'; watch every move he makes so you don't have to hire him again. And as you know, we are a product of our past. When I started my first year auto-shop class in high school, that old bastard of a teacher I had would have run me right out of class if I didn't already have a working knowledge of cars. And I was only 15. I shudder to think of what he would have done to a nerd. Oops, I didn't mean you are a nerd! Oh boy, I better stop. The guys here have given you all the information you need to solve the problem. Do this; 1. Check voltage at the big honkin red wire. If none, get some. It must be there. Turn on the battery selector switch. 2. Jump the big honkin red wire to the little wire next to it on the solenoid. Use a screwdriver. Make the connection hard and fast. If all connections are good the engine will crank. WARNING! This can be dangerous if you are not experienced and aren't ready. Keep away from moving parts. 3. If the engine doesn't turnover, check the big honkin yellow wire for a good connection at the engine. 4. Now shut off the engine because it should be running or close to it unless the solenoid is bad. VERY unlikely in your case. Then try the start button again. This time you have to turn on the key. 5. If nothing happens check voltage at the back of the key switch. If no voltage coming in, then find and check the fuse behind the alternator. Oh hell, replace it. That's all that is likely to be wrong in your case. Other possibilities include a disconnected source on the fuse wire and bad connections in the junction plug(s) to the control panel. 6. If voltage is good, into the key switch but not good on the other side (with the key on) replace the switch. Same for the start button. The power out from the start button goes to the exact same place as the screwdriver did to crank the engine. And it's getting its' power from the same place as the screwdriver; the big honkin red wire. On my engine, I wired a start button below so I could crank without using a screwdriver. Photo #46 and #118 on my web site among others.
Thanks Fred
Nice play by play. Thanks to everyone for the hints and ideas. I'll get to this over the weekend and let you know how it goes.
Nice play by play. Thanks to everyone for the hints and ideas. I'll get to this over the weekend and let you know how it goes.
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