what would it be? 110, 135, 150...thats my situation right now. looks like a found a near new mainsail so now may have enough left over to get a decent, (maybe refurbished), jib. since i am a "new guy" (never owned a boat myself and certainly haven't even sailed one this big), i could use some input on jib selection. i will sail inland lakes, probably nominal conditions.....mostly breezy and sometimes outright gusty. might want to think of something easy to handle too as i will be singlehanded without a furler.
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Johan
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Steve Ullrich
Learn safely...
I'm keying in on the fact that you describe yourself as a "new guy" and for that reason I'm suggesting that you start with the 110. You will be a lot less likely to overpower yourself and get in trouble while you are learning to sail. You can always move to a larger jib down the road, once you are comfortable with your ability to handle her. If you have the money to install a furling head sail, that is a little different. I'd get the 150 too.
I'm keying in on the fact that you describe yourself as a "new guy" and for that reason I'm suggesting that you start with the 110. You will be a lot less likely to overpower yourself and get in trouble while you are learning to sail. You can always move to a larger jib down the road, once you are comfortable with your ability to handle her. If you have the money to install a furling head sail, that is a little different. I'd get the 150 too.
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william
what about 135%?
i have only sailed small boats. 16-18' so i am not going to overestimate my skills. (i'm also old enough to be cautious). starting slow suits me just fine if thats what it takes. i will probably rig a downhall on the jib this season but am thinking furler next. something that is in good enough shape to last several seasons, and is big enough that it can be modified for a furler next season would be nice. i suppose a 110 can be furrled but hopefully my skills will improve quick enough to make something that small obsolete pretty quick.
i have only sailed small boats. 16-18' so i am not going to overestimate my skills. (i'm also old enough to be cautious). starting slow suits me just fine if thats what it takes. i will probably rig a downhall on the jib this season but am thinking furler next. something that is in good enough shape to last several seasons, and is big enough that it can be modified for a furler next season would be nice. i suppose a 110 can be furrled but hopefully my skills will improve quick enough to make something that small obsolete pretty quick.
110
William: I doubt that you need more than a 110% jib for most of your sailing. Sure we all wish that we had a little more on those lite air days. The problem with a larger jib, is they really do not sail that well when furled (if you had a furler). Thinking about sailing on Lake Tahoe several years ago, you also probably get the down slope winds blowing through the canyons. This is going to cause your boat to be over on it's ear most of the time. These boats do not sail very well when you are heald over 25-35 deg. Purchase a smaller jib and save up for a lite wind sail for those days when you really need it. One of the big advantages of a smaller boat, it costs a lot less for these smaller sails.
William: I doubt that you need more than a 110% jib for most of your sailing. Sure we all wish that we had a little more on those lite air days. The problem with a larger jib, is they really do not sail that well when furled (if you had a furler). Thinking about sailing on Lake Tahoe several years ago, you also probably get the down slope winds blowing through the canyons. This is going to cause your boat to be over on it's ear most of the time. These boats do not sail very well when you are heald over 25-35 deg. Purchase a smaller jib and save up for a lite wind sail for those days when you really need it. One of the big advantages of a smaller boat, it costs a lot less for these smaller sails.
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Frank Ladd
110 or less
Atually a jib is usually a sail that is 100% or less. And if I only could have one headsail in a high wind area, then I'd definately opt for a 100% self tacking jib. Upwind the shape is more important than the sail area and off the wind in light air you'll want a drifter or a Asym spinaker.
Atually a jib is usually a sail that is 100% or less. And if I only could have one headsail in a high wind area, then I'd definately opt for a 100% self tacking jib. Upwind the shape is more important than the sail area and off the wind in light air you'll want a drifter or a Asym spinaker.
110 is fine
The hank-on 110 jib that came with the boat is an excellent and highly underrated sail. There are several reasons why I feel this way. First, the H23 mast is tall (about 6 ft more than a Catalina 22) so the mainsail is large and powerful. The boat sails fine under mains'l alone (try it). The 110 is a good match for the main and adds plenty of power. A 150 is too much sail. A 135 or 140 is about as big as you would ever need, and only in really light air. Second, large headsails are harder to see around from the cockpit, especially to leeward. Third, larger headsails are harder to tack. You may need someone on the foredeck to drag the clew of the sail around the front of the mast each time you come about. Fourth, the stock (fixed) jib block on the deck was set for the 110 jib. It's too far forward to provide the proper sheeting angle for a large headsail so you'll have to get jib tracks. Fifth, if you get roller furling, you'll also have to buy a new sail (hank-ons won't fit) and the aforementioned jib tracks. Unless you're racing a lot in really light air, I wouldn't bother. Spend the money on something more useful, like a cruising spinnaker which you can raise to replace the 110 when sailing downwind. You might even be able to pick up a lightly used 110 for next to nothing from somebody who bought a roller-furling headsail... Peter H23 "Raven"
The hank-on 110 jib that came with the boat is an excellent and highly underrated sail. There are several reasons why I feel this way. First, the H23 mast is tall (about 6 ft more than a Catalina 22) so the mainsail is large and powerful. The boat sails fine under mains'l alone (try it). The 110 is a good match for the main and adds plenty of power. A 150 is too much sail. A 135 or 140 is about as big as you would ever need, and only in really light air. Second, large headsails are harder to see around from the cockpit, especially to leeward. Third, larger headsails are harder to tack. You may need someone on the foredeck to drag the clew of the sail around the front of the mast each time you come about. Fourth, the stock (fixed) jib block on the deck was set for the 110 jib. It's too far forward to provide the proper sheeting angle for a large headsail so you'll have to get jib tracks. Fifth, if you get roller furling, you'll also have to buy a new sail (hank-ons won't fit) and the aforementioned jib tracks. Unless you're racing a lot in really light air, I wouldn't bother. Spend the money on something more useful, like a cruising spinnaker which you can raise to replace the 110 when sailing downwind. You might even be able to pick up a lightly used 110 for next to nothing from somebody who bought a roller-furling headsail... Peter H23 "Raven"
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william
one shouldn't ask advice unless......
one is prepared to take it. looks like the concensis is about 110 huh. ok, looks like i am looking for a 110. i don't have much asperation to race anyway, (right now), and if i was in a hurry i would have bought a powerboat. i am sure that the convenience of a 110 is probably more in line with my needs. thanks everyone for all the advice....
one is prepared to take it. looks like the concensis is about 110 huh. ok, looks like i am looking for a 110. i don't have much asperation to race anyway, (right now), and if i was in a hurry i would have bought a powerboat. i am sure that the convenience of a 110 is probably more in line with my needs. thanks everyone for all the advice....
William, about that 110
The stock jib for a Catalina 22 might fit. Since there are a LOT more C-22s than H23s out there, you might find a used C-22 headsail at a much better price. Run a search on Google under "used sails" and see what pops up. I checked a used sail website that provides rig dimensions for production boats. For headsails, the dimensions you need are "I" (height of sail head above deck) and "J" (distance from tack of headsail to front of mast). Here's what I found: For a C-22: I = 25.8, J = 8.0 For an H23: I = 26.0, J = 8.5 - about the same. Just for grins, here are mainsail dimensions for both boats ("P" is luff length and "E" is foot length): For a C-22: P = 21.0, J = 9.7 For an H23: P = 24.8, J = 9.8 The 4 ft difference in luff length (thanks to the taller mast) yields almost 20% more sail area, i.e more power. Peter H23 "Raven"
The stock jib for a Catalina 22 might fit. Since there are a LOT more C-22s than H23s out there, you might find a used C-22 headsail at a much better price. Run a search on Google under "used sails" and see what pops up. I checked a used sail website that provides rig dimensions for production boats. For headsails, the dimensions you need are "I" (height of sail head above deck) and "J" (distance from tack of headsail to front of mast). Here's what I found: For a C-22: I = 25.8, J = 8.0 For an H23: I = 26.0, J = 8.5 - about the same. Just for grins, here are mainsail dimensions for both boats ("P" is luff length and "E" is foot length): For a C-22: P = 21.0, J = 9.7 For an H23: P = 24.8, J = 9.8 The 4 ft difference in luff length (thanks to the taller mast) yields almost 20% more sail area, i.e more power. Peter H23 "Raven"
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Jim Kolstoe
Start small
William, While I have long recognized that Peter tends to give good advice, I respectfully disagree in part. Based on your statement that you are a beginner, by all means start with the 110%. But, after you gain some experience and are feeling more comfortable (and recovered from making your initial purchase) talk with the experienced sailors in your area about their head sail recommendations. I think Peter is, for most purposes, an ocean sailor. He will therefore experience consistantly faster wind, at higher air pressures that those of us inland, or like you, significantly above sea level. We've sailed in the Cascades, about 5000' above sea level, and the thinner air does not produce as much power for a given wind speed as our "home" lake at 373'. We sailed our h23 for two or three years with just the jib, and had a fine time and learned how to sail our boat. Then we got a 150%, and we use it as our first choice of head sail. If the wind speeds get too high, we put the jib on. That geneally only happens about a half dozen times a season. There are some attendent costs such as track to give you an adjustable lead, but those are not unreasonable. And make sure there is a "window" installed in your sail to make it easier to see past it. But then have fun. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
William, While I have long recognized that Peter tends to give good advice, I respectfully disagree in part. Based on your statement that you are a beginner, by all means start with the 110%. But, after you gain some experience and are feeling more comfortable (and recovered from making your initial purchase) talk with the experienced sailors in your area about their head sail recommendations. I think Peter is, for most purposes, an ocean sailor. He will therefore experience consistantly faster wind, at higher air pressures that those of us inland, or like you, significantly above sea level. We've sailed in the Cascades, about 5000' above sea level, and the thinner air does not produce as much power for a given wind speed as our "home" lake at 373'. We sailed our h23 for two or three years with just the jib, and had a fine time and learned how to sail our boat. Then we got a 150%, and we use it as our first choice of head sail. If the wind speeds get too high, we put the jib on. That geneally only happens about a half dozen times a season. There are some attendent costs such as track to give you an adjustable lead, but those are not unreasonable. And make sure there is a "window" installed in your sail to make it easier to see past it. But then have fun. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
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David Foster
Depends on the wind & use
If you want to race in mostly light winds, then you need a big genny. a 135 (or more) is the best way to get to the windward mark in a race around the flags in light winds. If your winds are usually above 10 knots, I think you should start with the 110. If you are a cruiser, the next step is an asymetric cruising spinnaker. An asymetric delivers more light air power on a reach, and it is easy to carry both the 110 and an asymetric (in its sock) at the same time for those days when the wind starts light, and then builds up! David Lady Lillie
If you want to race in mostly light winds, then you need a big genny. a 135 (or more) is the best way to get to the windward mark in a race around the flags in light winds. If your winds are usually above 10 knots, I think you should start with the 110. If you are a cruiser, the next step is an asymetric cruising spinnaker. An asymetric delivers more light air power on a reach, and it is easy to carry both the 110 and an asymetric (in its sock) at the same time for those days when the wind starts light, and then builds up! David Lady Lillie
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william
thanks everybody
some good thoughts here. i think the cal 22 would be just fine as a "trainer sail" if i could find one. i'll keep an eye out. looks like i will be looking for something in the smallish range this year. also, i never thought about the fact that my sailing at 5000' altitude would be that different from sea level either but obviously....i'll keep yall posted on the outcome.
some good thoughts here. i think the cal 22 would be just fine as a "trainer sail" if i could find one. i'll keep an eye out. looks like i will be looking for something in the smallish range this year. also, i never thought about the fact that my sailing at 5000' altitude would be that different from sea level either but obviously....i'll keep yall posted on the outcome.
Excellent point, Jim
Living in a state where the highest point is 300 ft above sea level makes you forget that altitude does influence air properties (just ask any pilot). Most lakes in Florida are less than 100 ft above sea level but we still use large headsails, especially in the summer when there's almost no wind. Your suggestion to check with other local sailors to see what works for them was by far the best advice. Peter H23 "Raven"
Living in a state where the highest point is 300 ft above sea level makes you forget that altitude does influence air properties (just ask any pilot). Most lakes in Florida are less than 100 ft above sea level but we still use large headsails, especially in the summer when there's almost no wind. Your suggestion to check with other local sailors to see what works for them was by far the best advice. Peter H23 "Raven"
Over Powered is no fun
Having to much sail up is the worst thing you can do. It took me a couple of years to find this out before I finally broke down and bought a 110% head sail. I don't especially care to sail in light air anyhow. You want the boat to handle well, you don't want to have to fight it.
Having to much sail up is the worst thing you can do. It took me a couple of years to find this out before I finally broke down and bought a 110% head sail. I don't especially care to sail in light air anyhow. You want the boat to handle well, you don't want to have to fight it.
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Tom Monroe
One is not enough
I've been watching this thread for several days, waiting for someone else to say this, and maybe I'm wrong ... there's a lot more knowledge than I have represented by some of the responders here. But ... I think for inland lake sailing, even on a tight budget, one headsail is just not enough, and a reefable main is just as important. Nothing eats into the fun more than arriving at the marina and discovering that the wind is too light for your 110 or too heavy for you 135/150. And some great sailing days need a 110 and reefed main. As someone already said, "overpowered is no fun", but underpowered is no fun either. Sailing days are just too precious to think about "only one jib." You can do a web search on "used sails" and find some old blown-out stuff that will get your boat balanced to the wind conditions, without costing more than a dinner out with friends. I found a drifter for my boat for $45.00 plus shipping. I didn't look real great, and Jayne had to do a little bit of mending. But it got us moving on dull days. Conversely, $100.00 of sail loft cost, an old block, and a piece of line let me get a reef point on the main. I bought an old spinnaker from a guy for another $25.00. I just tie it down to the tack point, raise it on the jib halyard, and sheet it to the aft cleat. Again, not pretty or the "way it's supposed to be done", but for pennies I'm having fun. To have fun on inland lakes on the day you happen to be able to go sailing requires some sail diversity, and some searching and ingenuity will let you do that at low cost. Tom Monroe Carlye Lake
I've been watching this thread for several days, waiting for someone else to say this, and maybe I'm wrong ... there's a lot more knowledge than I have represented by some of the responders here. But ... I think for inland lake sailing, even on a tight budget, one headsail is just not enough, and a reefable main is just as important. Nothing eats into the fun more than arriving at the marina and discovering that the wind is too light for your 110 or too heavy for you 135/150. And some great sailing days need a 110 and reefed main. As someone already said, "overpowered is no fun", but underpowered is no fun either. Sailing days are just too precious to think about "only one jib." You can do a web search on "used sails" and find some old blown-out stuff that will get your boat balanced to the wind conditions, without costing more than a dinner out with friends. I found a drifter for my boat for $45.00 plus shipping. I didn't look real great, and Jayne had to do a little bit of mending. But it got us moving on dull days. Conversely, $100.00 of sail loft cost, an old block, and a piece of line let me get a reef point on the main. I bought an old spinnaker from a guy for another $25.00. I just tie it down to the tack point, raise it on the jib halyard, and sheet it to the aft cleat. Again, not pretty or the "way it's supposed to be done", but for pennies I'm having fun. To have fun on inland lakes on the day you happen to be able to go sailing requires some sail diversity, and some searching and ingenuity will let you do that at low cost. Tom Monroe Carlye Lake
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Frank Ladd
Tom, I think it is
In the past I would have agreed with you. I'd have said for basic headsails you need a jib of 75 to 100%, a 110 to 135 genny, and a big genny or drifter of about 150 to 180& or more. After that you need a spinnaker for running downwind. But today I'd change my arguement to just one headsail of about 85% to 110%. For light air below 10 knots I'd add an assymetrical Spinnaker or a nylon drifter. The nylon drifter is a little smaller and is a little easier to handle than the spinnaker. For boats where the main is very big by comparison the one head sail works fine. For older designs where the stock main is smaller than the stock headsail the old way works better. So for a Hunter 23 one headsail is fine. For a Catalins 22 it is not unless you get something like a 135% with roller furling.
In the past I would have agreed with you. I'd have said for basic headsails you need a jib of 75 to 100%, a 110 to 135 genny, and a big genny or drifter of about 150 to 180& or more. After that you need a spinnaker for running downwind. But today I'd change my arguement to just one headsail of about 85% to 110%. For light air below 10 knots I'd add an assymetrical Spinnaker or a nylon drifter. The nylon drifter is a little smaller and is a little easier to handle than the spinnaker. For boats where the main is very big by comparison the one head sail works fine. For older designs where the stock main is smaller than the stock headsail the old way works better. So for a Hunter 23 one headsail is fine. For a Catalins 22 it is not unless you get something like a 135% with roller furling.
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Dave Noack
Since we're on th subject...
of used sails, anyone know where I can pick up a drifter for my 87 h23 for "less than the cost of a dinner out". thanks in advance
of used sails, anyone know where I can pick up a drifter for my 87 h23 for "less than the cost of a dinner out". thanks in advance
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Tom
Used sails...
Heres one, But it would have to be a really good dinner with lots of friends! See link Fair winds, Tom
Heres one, But it would have to be a really good dinner with lots of friends! See link Fair winds, Tom
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william
using different size headsails
ok, now to add to my confusion....as suggested by peter i believe, i looked into a cat 22 headsail. my oem h23 headsial is luff: 25'10", foot: 10'6", leech: 22'10". now, a cat22 sail will "fit" on the boat but...looks like it will have a longer foot i believe, (i'm not looking at the specs). won't this cause slack in the foot with the sheet fairleads in the factory position? isn't this going to be true and even more pronounced as headsails get bigger....ie: 135%, 150%, 180%. i see the fairleads in rails on some performance type boats but on most boats i see fixed fairleads. looks like sail geometry dictates only one position for the fairleads and all other sail sizes will either cause slack on the leech or the foot. how does one get around this problem?
ok, now to add to my confusion....as suggested by peter i believe, i looked into a cat 22 headsail. my oem h23 headsial is luff: 25'10", foot: 10'6", leech: 22'10". now, a cat22 sail will "fit" on the boat but...looks like it will have a longer foot i believe, (i'm not looking at the specs). won't this cause slack in the foot with the sheet fairleads in the factory position? isn't this going to be true and even more pronounced as headsails get bigger....ie: 135%, 150%, 180%. i see the fairleads in rails on some performance type boats but on most boats i see fixed fairleads. looks like sail geometry dictates only one position for the fairleads and all other sail sizes will either cause slack on the leech or the foot. how does one get around this problem?
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Tom Monroe
William, you are correct ...
... you need a way to modify the way the sheet is led. Actually, in "most" boats you'll see a track with a movable car, usually called a genoa track, that allows you to change the way the sheet is led. This is useful even when you're not changing headsails, cause it allows you to power up and power down the sail based on wind conditions. I've only used a roller furler a couple times on other people's boats, but they don't always seem to roll up quite right, so the ability to adjust the lead point is nice there, too. You can add a genoa track pretty easily to most boats, as long as the deck isn't foam core (don't think an H23 is). It's just a track throughbolted to backing plates, and bedded properly to prevent leaks. I'm sure Hunter or some H23 owners out there can tell you where to mount it. Cost, maybe $100.00. One other thought, I guess, for H23 owners out there to comment on ... when you add a track on an H23, will the sheet still lead to the winch correctly? If it rises at too acute an angle to the winch, the turns will ride over each other. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
... you need a way to modify the way the sheet is led. Actually, in "most" boats you'll see a track with a movable car, usually called a genoa track, that allows you to change the way the sheet is led. This is useful even when you're not changing headsails, cause it allows you to power up and power down the sail based on wind conditions. I've only used a roller furler a couple times on other people's boats, but they don't always seem to roll up quite right, so the ability to adjust the lead point is nice there, too. You can add a genoa track pretty easily to most boats, as long as the deck isn't foam core (don't think an H23 is). It's just a track throughbolted to backing plates, and bedded properly to prevent leaks. I'm sure Hunter or some H23 owners out there can tell you where to mount it. Cost, maybe $100.00. One other thought, I guess, for H23 owners out there to comment on ... when you add a track on an H23, will the sheet still lead to the winch correctly? If it rises at too acute an angle to the winch, the turns will ride over each other. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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