I would like to change out my wing keel for a fin keel

JRacer · Apr 11, 2016

Jack up the mast head fly and drive a new boat under it.

reworb · Apr 12, 2016

I had a Catalina 28 that came from the factory with a fin keel. Before I moved to Florida I had it swapped for a wing keel. The yard removed the the entire fin keel and replaced it with a wing keel. The Catalina factory cooperated with the yard both in technology and parts and even gave me a trade in allowance for the lead in the fin keel. Don't know if it would work the same on your boat. The yard where I had this done is located in Ventura California, a little far for you.

kloudie1 · Apr 12, 2016

These are the guys that can do it.. but... for handicap racing, you'd do better to invest in perfecting your sails, sail trim, rig tuning, and things like fairing of keel and rudder and getting the bottom in best condition it can be in..
http://marskeel.com/production/repair-modifications/draft-reductions/
Click on the note on top of the page

Brian S · Apr 12, 2016

I wouldn't spend the money. That's not a racing boat. Generally, a fin keel will make a boat point better than a wing keel. That being said, most non-racing hulls should be sailed cracked off the wind some, to sail faster. If you saw the polars, you'd see it's probably faster to sail to the windward mark that way, rather than trying to pinch as high as boats designed to go to windward. Also, as mentioned, a smooth, fair hull with hard paint, and new sails, preferably cut for racing, would do more for you. Since it's a cruising boat, getting rid of any extra weight like tableware, linens, extra anchors, etc. should help some. Also, a proper traveller and remotely adjustable jib fairleads could improve sail trim. Good foredeck work with spin hoists and takedowns, etc. Being able to sail the boat you have faster, and to its rating should be the goal, and then if you don't think that's good enough for your race circuit, they you should probably consider a boat that is racer/cruiser or full-on racing...

I work in a bike shop. I see triathletes come in all the time, who want to put aero bars on their regular road bike, just because they see faster racers with time trial bikes. I see guys who only ever ride on the flat bike trail with aero bars on regular road bikes, and I crush them, because they never train on hills. And just putting aero bars on a regular road bike does not fix the problems of body geometry the way a properly fitted time trial bike does. So, I think they could go a lot faster if they would train with the equipment they have. Like, they have 80% of improvement yet to do with better training, and shaving a few seconds through "aero improvements" isn't going to get them there. I feel as if a new keel on your boat might be just like this.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 12, 2016

Not a bad idea and doable as kloudie's link suggests. It's up to you to decide if worthwhile or not. I'd find out if the keel depth affects access to your favorite destinations. Otherwise, there is probably no downside, except the expense. If you are budget-minded, it may not be as worthwhile as other improvements.

whatfiero · Apr 12, 2016

Changing keel too expensive cheaper to sell or trade in on competitive phrf class racer like a j-boat

Jackdaw · Apr 12, 2016

A new keel will lower your rating so the net effect is ZERO.

Your boat came from the factory as pure cruiser/floating condo. I bet you could spend the same money and upgrade most of the sailing systems and sails to make the boat MUCH faster. And doing so would not touch your rating. Free speed.

mm2347 · Apr 13, 2016

Jackdaw--you have to learn to get to the point faster!! (smile face)

Jackdaw · Apr 13, 2016

mm2347 said:
Jackdaw--you have to learn to get to the point faster!! (smile face)

No I got your point; I AGREE with you!

jleblanc31 · Apr 14, 2016

So with racing sails and a new keel would that make your boat the equivalent of a Hot Rod Cadillac?

Crazy Dave Condon · Apr 14, 2016

The keels came from Mars Metals in Canada. If bent bound and determined to change it, then call and see if they can cast one for you. I assume you are on a lake and if so, depth may be critical in some places vs. a fin keel. You will not be able to do this job by yourself so the cost of the keel, transporting and yard services as stated will be a big wad of cash out of your pocket for what? Speed. Like some have said, the boat is primarily for cruising and those few moments of speed and racing, forget it. However thru correct tuning, sail control and knowledge of prevailing winds and directions on Lake Nockamixon will serve to your advantage if you want to perform better.

Brian S · Apr 14, 2016

Crazy Dave Condon said:
However thru correct tuning, sail control and knowledge of prevailing winds and directions on Lake Nockamixon will serve to your advantage if you want to perform better.

I'm just picking nits, Crazy Dave, but the OP was thinking of swapping a Hunter 340 keel up in Milwaukee.

As for Lake Nockamixon, the marina has a 24' limit. I've seen a Macgregor 26D in dry storage all last summer, but never saw it on the lake. I think it would be a real hoot to see a 34 footer at the lake! Come to think of it, there was a very new looking, larger Catalina (a 250, I think?) on a trailer leaving the marina one evening towards the end of last year. I can't imagine they were day sailing it. Maybe they put it in so they could do some trailer work? They were all in the truck driving when I ran into them, and it was close to dark, so I never got to go talk to them. I followed them South on Rt. 309 until they passed my town and I peeled off to go home.

MrBill_FLL · Apr 14, 2016

not cost effective. could be done, but as jack says, race sails, and fairing hull, and other 'speed parts' would be money better spent.

I crew on a bene 393, (ex morings boat), and we win our class often.
owner is skilled and spent money on decent North Sails a asym, and rigging.

how are your starts? I can't count how many races are lost on the start.

walmsleyc · Apr 14, 2016

I've got a wing keel on my Legend 35 (some of which came with a deep fin, but hunter eventually when with wing keels all the time). I'm a racer at heart, but find this boat a happy medium between a great weekend boat, and a mid-long distance racing boat.

As others have posted, it's not worth it unless you are really really frustrated by the fact that you can't point as high as others with fin keels. Your rating will account for the difference and I have found my boat very competitive against similarly rated boats. I do get frustrated by pointing sometimes, but it is usually in the lighter winds when it is most apparent. It does change your tactics and planning, but once the wind is up, then I find my boat can point very competitively.

Also, as noted above, good/new sails can make a big difference. I've been tracking and keeping a log of my GPS courses for races over a number of years, measuring the actual tacking angles, wind conditions, etc. A few years ago I got a new tri-radial jib (135%), and last year a similar cut main (high end cruising/low end racing). Each new sail improved my pointing angle significantly. My tacking angles went from 100-110 degrees to 85-95 degrees. That improvement comes with no change in rating, and thus directly impacts the corrected finish positions!

Chris

Jumpstart · Apr 14, 2016

If you race lot of Wednesday around the buoys stuff, nothing goes upwind like draft. For that type of racing the rating difference is a loser for the shorter draft wing keel. Why you ask? The wing doesn't point nearly as well and gets to the weather layline late. You now have to sail farther, slower, or both. because you are invariably behind a bunch of boats. That can mean it takes an extra 45-60 seconds to sail the weather leg than your sistership with the deeper draft. Additionally, in chop the wing tends to slide sideways more and needs to be sailed flatter with more attention to the fore and aft trim. Slow with a wing keel is either bow down or bow up, both can be bad. Now if you racing point to point distance race the wing keel might be ok.

walmsleyc · Apr 14, 2016

For the sake of argument, while what you say is true for uncorrected time, in the PHRF handicap system, in theory at least, that would be accounted for. PHRF doesn't really care why your boat is slower that others. It could be simple boat performance characteristics, or it could be that poor pointing puts you at a tactical disadvantage, or whatever, but in the end a boats PHRF should account for that.

I regularly sail against an X-95 that has the same rating. That boat is a full keel performance boat, where as my Legend is a Cruiser/Racer. Even thought the boats have significantly different characteristics, and I have a shoal/wing keel that doesn't point as well under most conditions, we end up finishing together very often and spend lots of time trading tacks with each other.

Chris

Jumpstart · Apr 14, 2016

Walmsleyc- Ever watch some of the old Americas Cup stuff? When similar speed boats reached the layline the lead boat always put 30-45 seconds on the trailing boat. PHRF does not take into consideration the negative effect of getting to the layline later. How could it since class splits vary with the regatta or venue.

I would expect that your Hunter is faster on reaches than the X-95 since you have 4 ft longer waterline. Looking at the interior of X-95 I'd say it is a cruiser racer albeit a bit less fitted out than the 35.5

walmsleyc · Apr 15, 2016

I'm not really a PHRF expert, but imagine company X make a brand new wing keel boat "Y" with no previous comparable. Local PHRF fleet captains would pick an initial "T" rating for that boat, and would likely adjust that over the next seasons to until that boat had a finished corrected times that bring it close to the corrected times of other well established classes in the fleet.

Assume that the fleets that boat "Y" competes in are a average distribution of PHRF racers (likely more full keels than wing keels, but I don't really know), then "getting to the layline later" would surely be part of what the local PHRF adjuster must include when adjusting the rating for boat "Y", because they have no way to exclude such subtleties from how they establish the rating. Base PHRF ratings for boats are developed (refined) based on amassed performance results (averages,hence the "P" in PHRF), and averages don't care why you usually finish after a similar boat with a full keel, they only care by how much.

A fleet where boat "Y" is the only wing keel among a bunch of full keel racers will do worse that when boat "Y" is racing among mostly other wing keel boats, perhaps for the reason you suggest, but that is why rating evolve over average data. It is also an example of how you could choose a PHRF to buy that will clean up in a local fleet. You look at prevailing conditions in an area, and the makeup of boats in the current fleet, and you could pick a PHRF boat to buy that would put you at an advantage in that fleet/location.

As for the X-95, from the X yachts website: "X-95: The third model was a scaled down X-102, and was designed to race in the popular Half Ton class. Won the World Championship for production half tonners in 1983 in Hankö, Norway." While having admirable accommodations below and certainly cruisable, it was designed to race. While the Legend 35 has a reasonable rig and sailplan, it was designed to cruise. (it weighs twice as much)

So, I'm not arguing that a wing keel boat (all other thing being equal) may also be slower because of tactical issues at laylines, roundings, etc., but I am arguing that any such tactical issue ARE accounted for in a rating system like PHRF which does not distinguish (other rating systems are based on performance predicting, and therefore would not account for this).

Chris

Jumpstart · Apr 15, 2016

Chris, whereas you are probably right on PHRF on Lake Ontario they are the exception because they use race results and statistical confidence levels as an important part of their deliberations. Most of the rest of the PHRF world doesn't do it that way. So lets say the wing keel is the scratch boat in its fleet by 20 seconds/mile and they aren't affected by being late to the layline. Pretty hard to make an accurate rating consideration from that. Also where results are from point to point races the layline issue is diminished.

We are kind of off the original subject. Really didn't want to start an argument