I want weather helm

[Quoddy]

How can I get weather helm while sailing flat?

Here’s the story: With internal water ballast the boat is tender. The boat has generous beam carried aft which means the helm is very affected by the amount of heel. Sailing at 15+ degrees with proper sail trim gives the right amount of weather helm. In gusty conditions 15+ goes to 25+ in a flash. This is uncomfortable. I would like to sail around 10 degrees reefed or not as necessary with good helm but that flat becomes lee helm.
So once again what tricks can I use to get the right amount of weather helm without the heeled hulls initial contribution?

 

[Tim R.]

Rake your mast aft, reduce headsail, move your traveler to windward, etc. You will have to play around to find the best method. am sure there are other ways but you will not go as fast because you will have to turn your rudder to counteract the weather helm which in turn slows the boat. I would have to have sailed your boat to give you a more accurate answer. I have never sailed a boat with water ballast. My boat has a deep fin keel that I can use the sails and rigging tensions to affect helm.

A little weather helm is good. Too much will slow you and make the boat hard to handle in a gust and possibly dangerous. I have seen racing boats(BTW, racers rarely reef) head up uncontrollably from a gust right into another boat. They could not dump the main fast enough.

 

[RichH]

Does the centerboard on a H-260 'swing' or 'pivot' up, (not like a dagger board which gets pulled 'straight up')?
If so, then simply slightly raise the centerboard so it swings up and more aft. Doing so will cause more 'weather helm' but with less 'bite' and a bit more 'skid to leeward' of the keel in the water; this moves the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) more aft (and up).

Other (aspects of sail shape/trim).
If your mainsail has a boltroped luff, and if you are stretching out the boltrope (an additional ~1" for every 11ft. of luff length) to properly raise the sail, then simply reduce the amount of halyard tension to near 'just up' and less halyard tension. This will cause the draft to 'go aft' and the leech to begin to 'hook up to weather' - all causing more 'weather helm'.
If you arent properly raising your sail, then you will have to rake the mast back a bit, etc.

Alternatively, when beating, you can overtension the mainsheet which will also cause the leech to begin to hook up to weather .... inducing more 'weather helm' (used only when beating and will slightly slow the boat).

 

[Tom Spohn]

Reduce headsail.

 

[Ted]

I don't agree with part of what RichH has suggested to increase weather helm. If you move the center of lateral resistance (CLR) aft you will increase lee helm. You should move the CLR forward to increase weather helm.

I know that you want to sail your boat flat but changing the shape of the boat below the water is another way to adjust balance. Heeling the boat to leeward creates a hull shape that turns the boat into the wind, increasing weather helm. Shifting crew weight to increase heel will increase weather helm by making the underwater surface more unsymmetrical.

 

[RichH]

Oooops, Ted is correct.
Moving a pivoting Centerboard to aft will increase leehelm, not weather helm. Must have had a 'brain fart'. ;-)

 

[higgs]

From the info given I don't understand. What happens when winds gust to 25? Does your boat tend to round up?

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Higgs: I'm sure it rounds up but he is bothered more by the excessive heeling than by the increase in weather helm. So why does everyone keep forgetting about the "Weather Couple"? Let me try to explain one more time,

Almost every boat is designed with a lee helm when straight up. That is to say, that the center of sail area (effort), is forward of the center of lateral resistance (under water hull profile). As the boat heels, the horizontal distance between the resistance in the direction of the boat's course (drag), and the center of sail area (drive) increases. This produces what is referred to as a weather couple, and it opposes the lee helm of the static design to produce a boat that should be in balance at about 10 to 12 degrees. When the boat sails at about 15 degrees there is a slight weather helm which is as it should be. Some asymmetrical hulls carry a bulge aft such that as the heel increases the under body profile or center of resistance goes aft to compensate fot the increase weather couple to keep the boat in balance longer. They too will eventually be overcome by the weather couple and will tend to be rounded up to weather.
raking the mast aft will increase weather helm in all conditions and with a reefed main may produce a boat that is more in balance but in a tender boat a puff is always going to give you a knock or increase your heel. A skillful helmsman pinches up in the puffs and spills a little of the puff before it knocks you very far over, rather than the normal reaction to keep the boat going straight by using more rudder and slowing the boat down. This is called playing the puffs.

Good Luck

Joe S

 

[Ted]

Quoddy, here's another sail trim option. Rather than trimming your main sail to increase weather helm, you might try reducing the forces that produce lee helm. Additional main sheet tension and moving the draft of the mainsail aft will definitely induce weather helm but will cause your boat to heel more and this is what you are trying to prevent. If you ease your genoa sheet slightly and move your genoa lead aft, you will induce twist in the headsail. This will de-power your genoa, reduce heeling forces and reduce the forces that would cause lee helm. In essence you are increasing weather helm by decreasing the forces that create lee helm. It will also prevent your boat from heeling excessively.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hunters with their fractional rigs usually have small jibs, so dropping the jib lead car aft to depower the jib will do less than on a mast head rig.

The simple answer to wanting more weather helm is to sail with too much mainsail up for the given breeze.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Sail balance

I assume that you:
can't rake your mast on the fly
Change the position of the underwater parts
want the standard 3 degrees of weather helm at the tiller/wheel

The only options are balancing the sails. Think of it this way, the boat sits on a pivot like a compass needle. The two sails will individually cause the boat to pivot one way or the other. Typically (down wind MAY be different) the head sail will cause the boat to pivot so the bow is turned away from the wind and the mainsail will pivot her so the bow is turned toward the wind. I always start with the head sail trim because it is the first to "see the wind" and effects all sails aft of it (except when running).
So if she is heeling to much start the depowering (flattening of the sail draft) by moving the jib sheet lead car aft and tightening the main clew outhaul, and cunningham (and if you can tighten the back stay do that too). Note that I did not move the traveler or adjust the sheets.

Just trying to drop the power not spill the wind!!!!!

Once you have her depowered you will have to trim the sheets for angle of attack but nothing major. If you can't depower the boat with the proper sail angle of attack then something is wrong. Old sails, wrong sails, need to reduce sail, or PO set the mast rake or moved the underwater parts incorrectly. Those last two are not very likely.

 

[Stu Jackson]

A skillful helmsman pinches up in the puffs and spills a little of the puff before it knocks you very far over, rather than the normal reaction to keep the boat going straight by using more rudder and slowing the boat down. This is called playing the puffs.

Also known as up in the puffs, down in lulls, and is a great way to gain upwind velocity.

Most Catalinas of a certain age, i.e., up to at least the mid-90s with the "original" hull forms before the dual wheel and newer (Cxyz-0) boats, all headed up when over canvassed. That was, for me, a very good selling point. Except for extremely close racing, which as previously noted could be dangerous to your hull and your close neighbors!), it taught me to reef early and often and was very safe 'cuz you could just release the tiller and the boat would go into irons: noisy, but safe.

 

[Dan Johnson]

What you guys are missing...

is that the water balasted Hunters had fixed jib blocks and an end-boom mainsheet with centerline cockpit sole attachment--no traveler, with tiller steering being most common. Some of the suggestions can not be accomplished with the physical layout of the boat.

 

[Quoddy]

Weather helm thanks

Thanks for all the ideas. Many of the things mentioned I have been working with and hearing them for different views gives me a fresh perspective and new ideas to work with.

On our H260 we have wheel steering and center cockpit sheeting. The vang can be used like a traveler to some extent and with fixed jib blocks and roller reefing when you want to depower the jib you get two for one. When you roll up you get less sail area and more twist at the same time.

 

[Dan Johnson]

Interesting, Quoddy...

The H260's of recent vintage with an inboard aux seemed to have wheel steering. It seems to make boat handling much easier.

While you get twist with a rolled up jib, you can't induce it when it's full out without jib tracks to move the tension point further aft.

I'm curious how you use the vang as a traveller given the fixed end of the mainsheet block. I can see it moving the COE forward, but not lowering it by adding twist while keeping shape.

 

[sailingdog]

Also, you might want to see how the boat is trimmed... if the boat is a bit aft heavy, it will have more weather helm than if it is bow heavy....

 

[George H260]

As already mentioned, the H260 does not have the sail controls (adjustable backstay, fairleads, traveler etc) common to many boats, so some of the suggestions are impractical.

I agree with those who say a properly tuned boat going to windward with too much sail up for the conditions is going to want to head up; the alternative is a broach. The power is in the main so tending the main in gusts is your first and best strategy.

In sustained high winds I first reduce headsail, if that is not enough, I reef the main, if that does not work, I go home and have a couple of well-earned beers.

BTW: I've sailed the H260 flat in 30 plus winds - it's all in how you trim.

 

[Quoddy]

Vang

Using the vang sort of like a traveler goes like this. You shape the sail with the halyard and outhaul and adjust twist with the mainsheet. When all these are right you then put the vang on hard. Now when you let out to adjust angle of attack the boom does not rise and therefore the sail maintains its shape.

I don’t know how the vang would alter the COE by itself. I have heard it said that a very hard vang can cause some mast bending but in our case I haven't noticed any.

Most H26 are tiller and most H260 are wheel and the H270 is the inboard, fixed keel, non water ballast version of the H260.

 

[Joe]

As already mentioned, the H260 does not have the sail controls (adjustable backstay, fairleads, traveler etc) common to many boats, so some of the suggestions are impractical.......................

It seems impractical to think that some of the sail trim controls missing on the H260 can't be added by the owner. Certainly a traveller and fairleads would be a fairly simple upgrade. Why not give your boat more trim control options so it will be easier to handle some of the conditions you describe?