THANK YOU for listening and potentially helping. I have a 30' Lippincot 1981. My brother and I were recently out sailing on Jib only when 20-25kt winds hit. We tried to pull the Jib in but it wouldn't budge (we have a manual roller furling). So we thought we would turn into the wind to reduce the forces on the Jib thinking that the wind was playing a role in us not being able to roll it up. We pulled and pulled and were barely making any headway when suddenly we heard a LOUD thunk. I could have sworn it came from the roller furling. After that moment the Jib was able to roll up and we motored back into the dock. When we got to the dock we looked up at the mast and noticed something we had never noticed before, a wire attached to the Jib and the mast was now dangling. Since we are relatively new to sailing we didn't know how important this wire was. MY QUESTION: Based on the photo I've uploaded can anyone tell me what this wire is, what the pulley attached to it does and if it's ok to sail in this condition or not? THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!
I NEED HELP, my jib/genoa seems to be broken
- Thread starter gloveside45
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How is it that your halyard isn't
wrapped around the foil 20 times or so? MY guess would be that the swivel got hung up on the halyard and you guys pulled it hard enough the break the upper bearing. Did you guys put the furling line on a winch? r.w.landau
wrapped around the foil 20 times or so? MY guess would be that the swivel got hung up on the halyard and you guys pulled it hard enough the break the upper bearing. Did you guys put the furling line on a winch? r.w.landau
Do you mean down at the deck level...
The halyard was wrapped around the furling as it always was and we were pulling it manually as that is all that has ever been needed. Yes however we did use a wench after all attempts to pull by brut force failed. Do you think there was something else that may have been preventing us from pulling and that the "upper bearing" was a result of excessive force on our part?
The halyard was wrapped around the furling as it always was and we were pulling it manually as that is all that has ever been needed. Yes however we did use a wench after all attempts to pull by brut force failed. Do you think there was something else that may have been preventing us from pulling and that the "upper bearing" was a result of excessive force on our part?
No, not at deck level, at the top.
The bearing at the top allows the foil to rotate and the halyard to stay put. Sometimes the halyard wants to wrap around the foil and the halyard then stops the foil from turning. Once the bearing broke, the halyard was set free and the foil was free to turn. Is there a swivel end on the end of your halyard? The halyard that is connected to the top of your sail in the picture. r.w.landau
The bearing at the top allows the foil to rotate and the halyard to stay put. Sometimes the halyard wants to wrap around the foil and the halyard then stops the foil from turning. Once the bearing broke, the halyard was set free and the foil was free to turn. Is there a swivel end on the end of your halyard? The halyard that is connected to the top of your sail in the picture. r.w.landau
I think I understand what you are saying about the
Foil and the halyard, but I don't exactly know what you mean by SWIVEL HEAD on the END of the HALYARD?
Foil and the halyard, but I don't exactly know what you mean by SWIVEL HEAD on the END of the HALYARD?
Looks like you broke the halyard block ...
attachment at the top of the mast ... Just can't use the jib till its fixed. This way you can fix all the other broken stuff at once when you find a rigging guy to go up there. One of the options in bringing in the jib with a lot of wind is to run down wind and blanket the jib to take the pressure off it before you try to wind it up ... then it also pulls the top of the jib a bit away from the mast and that often works better than flogging against the mast as you would upwind. Vic "Seven"
attachment at the top of the mast ... Just can't use the jib till its fixed. This way you can fix all the other broken stuff at once when you find a rigging guy to go up there. One of the options in bringing in the jib with a lot of wind is to run down wind and blanket the jib to take the pressure off it before you try to wind it up ... then it also pulls the top of the jib a bit away from the mast and that often works better than flogging against the mast as you would upwind. Vic "Seven"
Halyard Wrap
I THINK THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, YES? Halyard wrap is the number one reason for a jammed furling system. If you ever experience resistance when furling the headsail, look up at the halyard swivel and make sure the halyard has not wrapped or partially wrapped itself around the headstay. It’s good practice to periodically look up when furling the headsail, as halyard wrap can ruin both the halyard and the headstay--an expensive proposition. Another common problem is a furling system that will partially furl then stop, and then furl again, and then stop. You can complete the furl in the end, but operating the furler wasn’t smooth or consistent. What is happening is that the halyard is starting to wrap at the top, locking up the furling system, and then unwrapping when you ease the pressure on the furling line. The solution is to check your upper halyard swivel position, and to make sure it is high enough to keep the halyard from wrapping. Halyard diverters are one means to do this--the restrainer holds the halyard back against the mast keeping the halyard from wrapping around the foil. Another solution is adding a pennant to either the tack or head of the sail which allows the upper halyard swivel to get close enough to the sheave box and keeps the halyard from wrapping and out of harm’s way.
I THINK THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, YES? Halyard wrap is the number one reason for a jammed furling system. If you ever experience resistance when furling the headsail, look up at the halyard swivel and make sure the halyard has not wrapped or partially wrapped itself around the headstay. It’s good practice to periodically look up when furling the headsail, as halyard wrap can ruin both the halyard and the headstay--an expensive proposition. Another common problem is a furling system that will partially furl then stop, and then furl again, and then stop. You can complete the furl in the end, but operating the furler wasn’t smooth or consistent. What is happening is that the halyard is starting to wrap at the top, locking up the furling system, and then unwrapping when you ease the pressure on the furling line. The solution is to check your upper halyard swivel position, and to make sure it is high enough to keep the halyard from wrapping. Halyard diverters are one means to do this--the restrainer holds the halyard back against the mast keeping the halyard from wrapping around the foil. Another solution is adding a pennant to either the tack or head of the sail which allows the upper halyard swivel to get close enough to the sheave box and keeps the halyard from wrapping and out of harm’s way.
Great
that nice to know in the future, THANKS! One thing I have a hard time understanding is just how the halyard can get tangled around the foil at the top and if it does, how do I fix it from the deck. Also what I can do to prevent this?
that nice to know in the future, THANKS! One thing I have a hard time understanding is just how the halyard can get tangled around the foil at the top and if it does, how do I fix it from the deck. Also what I can do to prevent this?
Terminolagy
Guys, he is new to sailing and we are using the jargon like he is an old salt. gloveside45, the halyard is used to raise and lower the top (head) of a sail. You use it all the time for the mainsail but the jib halyard does not get used much as the jib is always "hoisted" due to it being a roller furled sail. The sheets are attached to the corner hole (clew cringle) of the sail down near the deck and away from the wire that runs from the furling drum up to the top of the mast (the forward stay). The sheets get wrapped around the jib as you finish furling it. They run from the clew cringle back to the cockpit winches. The halyard attaches to a swivel which gets attached to the jibsail head hole (head cringle). The question is how did the halyard not get wrapped around the forward guy when there appears to be no swivel at the top. The swivel at the top allows the halyard to not get all twisted up as you furl and unfurl the jib. I'd say that the upper swivel failed for some reason and the only way to fix it is to get the swivel down to deck level. You may be able to do this by lowering the jib but you will have to unfurl it first. And what is that 2x4 looking thing at the mast top?
Guys, he is new to sailing and we are using the jargon like he is an old salt. gloveside45, the halyard is used to raise and lower the top (head) of a sail. You use it all the time for the mainsail but the jib halyard does not get used much as the jib is always "hoisted" due to it being a roller furled sail. The sheets are attached to the corner hole (clew cringle) of the sail down near the deck and away from the wire that runs from the furling drum up to the top of the mast (the forward stay). The sheets get wrapped around the jib as you finish furling it. They run from the clew cringle back to the cockpit winches. The halyard attaches to a swivel which gets attached to the jibsail head hole (head cringle). The question is how did the halyard not get wrapped around the forward guy when there appears to be no swivel at the top. The swivel at the top allows the halyard to not get all twisted up as you furl and unfurl the jib. I'd say that the upper swivel failed for some reason and the only way to fix it is to get the swivel down to deck level. You may be able to do this by lowering the jib but you will have to unfurl it first. And what is that 2x4 looking thing at the mast top?
Restrainer
Gloveside is on target and a halyard restrainer is probably in your future. Basically, it is a fairlead or a block, rivited to your mast a short distance under where your halyard exits the masthead. The halyard goes through this restrainer from the mast head to the jib head. It is positioned in a manner that when your jib is raised there will only be a foot or less of halyard between the restrainer and the head of your jib so there is no way the halyard can wrap around your forestay. This is not expensive and not hard to do even when your jib is up. Actually, with your jib up, it may be easier to locate the restrainer. Check this link with a picture to give you an idea what it is all about. Skip the first pic and scroll down to the next one: http://www.sailjazz.com/editorial/read/21
Gloveside is on target and a halyard restrainer is probably in your future. Basically, it is a fairlead or a block, rivited to your mast a short distance under where your halyard exits the masthead. The halyard goes through this restrainer from the mast head to the jib head. It is positioned in a manner that when your jib is raised there will only be a foot or less of halyard between the restrainer and the head of your jib so there is no way the halyard can wrap around your forestay. This is not expensive and not hard to do even when your jib is up. Actually, with your jib up, it may be easier to locate the restrainer. Check this link with a picture to give you an idea what it is all about. Skip the first pic and scroll down to the next one: http://www.sailjazz.com/editorial/read/21
I am starting to wonder if this is really his boat
He is sailing in 20 to 25 knot winds but doesn't know what a halyard is... r.w.landau
He is sailing in 20 to 25 knot winds but doesn't know what a halyard is... r.w.landau
he is sailing in 20-24 knot winds....
It wasnt our intention to sail in winds that strong as I mentioned, they just came and we did what we were taught, drop the JIB, if we couldn't turn into the wind and try again which we did. We were in the Intracoastal in Miami and we had full motor power, in retrospect I think we did what any EXPERIENCED sailor would have done with a malfunction like this. We had motor and were trying to solve the problem as best we could. What would you have done differently oh wise one?
It wasnt our intention to sail in winds that strong as I mentioned, they just came and we did what we were taught, drop the JIB, if we couldn't turn into the wind and try again which we did. We were in the Intracoastal in Miami and we had full motor power, in retrospect I think we did what any EXPERIENCED sailor would have done with a malfunction like this. We had motor and were trying to solve the problem as best we could. What would you have done differently oh wise one?
Please dont criticize my understanding of sailing.
WE were told when WE (my brother and I) bought the boat that the wood at the top of the mast was used to replace the old Jib or Spinnaker I can't recall which. It may have caused the problem we had, I don't know. As for the windex looking odd I assume thats due to the angle at which I took the photo. YES we are new to sailing and are looking for help so we can understand our problem, we are not looking for criticism. So please respect that I want to understand this so we can prevent it in the future. Thanks.
WE were told when WE (my brother and I) bought the boat that the wood at the top of the mast was used to replace the old Jib or Spinnaker I can't recall which. It may have caused the problem we had, I don't know. As for the windex looking odd I assume thats due to the angle at which I took the photo. YES we are new to sailing and are looking for help so we can understand our problem, we are not looking for criticism. So please respect that I want to understand this so we can prevent it in the future. Thanks.
Old style Roller furler
Seems to me I saw an old roller furler one time that used the halyard to pull the jib with a special "key", The key had a down haul line attached to it. It pulled the jib all the way to the top and someway "latched" the head of the jib (top) to the roller and the halyard and "key" popped out the top. You then used the downhaul line to pull the halyard down where it could be use for the spinaker or storm staysail. In order to drop the RF jib, it was unfurled and this key was re-attached and pulled up. From the bottom is someway unlatched the jib and allowed it to be pulled down. It looked like a very bad system but a lot of older RF jibs used this. Ring any bells? Glovie-what kind of roller furler is this? On the boat somewhere do you have on looking stainless or chrome "do-hickey" about the size of a 4" cleat with a loop on one end and a funky marlinspike on the other? That would be the key that unlatches the jib.
Seems to me I saw an old roller furler one time that used the halyard to pull the jib with a special "key", The key had a down haul line attached to it. It pulled the jib all the way to the top and someway "latched" the head of the jib (top) to the roller and the halyard and "key" popped out the top. You then used the downhaul line to pull the halyard down where it could be use for the spinaker or storm staysail. In order to drop the RF jib, it was unfurled and this key was re-attached and pulled up. From the bottom is someway unlatched the jib and allowed it to be pulled down. It looked like a very bad system but a lot of older RF jibs used this. Ring any bells? Glovie-what kind of roller furler is this? On the boat somewhere do you have on looking stainless or chrome "do-hickey" about the size of a 4" cleat with a loop on one end and a funky marlinspike on the other? That would be the key that unlatches the jib.
Could you post a photo
Do you know what the make is of the furler? I'd like to see what the drum at the bottom of the furler looks like so I can figure out what is supposed to be at the top of the foil. If you search on jib furlers or headsail furlers you can see what people are talking about when they ask about the halyard swivel. As far as halyard restrainers go, I'm not a big fan. Very few rigs actually *need* one if the furler is built correctly and the sail fits properly. Many rigs get restrainers because owners don't make sure their sails fit the furler properly. If the sail in the picture is not partway down the furler, it does not fit properly. The head of the sail or halyard swivel (if the system has one) should be within 8-10" of the top cap 6-8" would be better. The halyard (the loose wire) does not look like it it has been wrapped around the furler. Wire halyards that have been wrapped around furlers usually are permanently deformed and leave marks on the upper foil and top cap (the bit you have the small red circle around). There are some horizontal marks on the mast (just above the wood) that look like something has scraped against the mast. I have no idea what. As far as the wood goes, it is just wrong. No one "repairs" anything at a masthead with a chunk of wood. I think your best bet is to have a professional rigger take a look at the masthead and inspect the rig while they are up the mast. If you are at the boat while the rigger(s) are there. You can learn a lot about your boat during their stay. Most riggers don't mind answering a few questions, particularly from new sailors. They want your business and most would like to to see you sailing safely and often. With a bit more information I could offer better advice, but I think you will need a rigger to solve the problem.
Do you know what the make is of the furler? I'd like to see what the drum at the bottom of the furler looks like so I can figure out what is supposed to be at the top of the foil. If you search on jib furlers or headsail furlers you can see what people are talking about when they ask about the halyard swivel. As far as halyard restrainers go, I'm not a big fan. Very few rigs actually *need* one if the furler is built correctly and the sail fits properly. Many rigs get restrainers because owners don't make sure their sails fit the furler properly. If the sail in the picture is not partway down the furler, it does not fit properly. The head of the sail or halyard swivel (if the system has one) should be within 8-10" of the top cap 6-8" would be better. The halyard (the loose wire) does not look like it it has been wrapped around the furler. Wire halyards that have been wrapped around furlers usually are permanently deformed and leave marks on the upper foil and top cap (the bit you have the small red circle around). There are some horizontal marks on the mast (just above the wood) that look like something has scraped against the mast. I have no idea what. As far as the wood goes, it is just wrong. No one "repairs" anything at a masthead with a chunk of wood. I think your best bet is to have a professional rigger take a look at the masthead and inspect the rig while they are up the mast. If you are at the boat while the rigger(s) are there. You can learn a lot about your boat during their stay. Most riggers don't mind answering a few questions, particularly from new sailors. They want your business and most would like to to see you sailing safely and often. With a bit more information I could offer better advice, but I think you will need a rigger to solve the problem.
THANKS
Thanks I appreciate it. The furling we have is pretty old, it's not shiny anymore, it has 4 metal rods coming up around it and one metal rod with a loop hole for the furling line. I wont be back at the boat for a few days, I'll take your advice though and get a rigger to check it out. I APOLOGIZE FOR MY INEXPERIENCE AND LACK OF ABILITY TO CONFIDENTLY USE THE RIGHT TERMINOLOGY. I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR VALUABLE HELP!
Thanks I appreciate it. The furling we have is pretty old, it's not shiny anymore, it has 4 metal rods coming up around it and one metal rod with a loop hole for the furling line. I wont be back at the boat for a few days, I'll take your advice though and get a rigger to check it out. I APOLOGIZE FOR MY INEXPERIENCE AND LACK OF ABILITY TO CONFIDENTLY USE THE RIGHT TERMINOLOGY. I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR VALUABLE HELP!
one point not mentioned
You also need to make sure that the jib halyard is snugged up. If there is slack in the halyard, gravity will pull the jib down and create the opportunity for the halyard to wrap arounf the foil at the top of the mast.
You also need to make sure that the jib halyard is snugged up. If there is slack in the halyard, gravity will pull the jib down and create the opportunity for the halyard to wrap arounf the foil at the top of the mast.
Snarled Furler
Gloveside, I think you did OK--experienced or not. Furlers can become snarled both at the top swivel or at the bottom drum. If this happens and normal force on the furling line will not furl in the sail then head into the wind--as you did and let her flap while you lower the sail by uncleating the jib halyard and pulling the sail out of the foil (the groove on the aft side of the furler). Once the sail is lowered you can wrap it with bungies till you get to port and safely see what is going on. So far all of the ideas are focused on the top of your sail. However: the fact that the sail is riding so low on the foil and the wire halyard is so loose makes me wonder if it wasn't the drum at the bottom that snarled causing the problem at the top when it broke free. Point is you will have to get a qualified rigger to check it out and then make sure your jib halyard is sufficiently tight for your next sail. Come back after you get it fixed and let us know what happened.
Gloveside, I think you did OK--experienced or not. Furlers can become snarled both at the top swivel or at the bottom drum. If this happens and normal force on the furling line will not furl in the sail then head into the wind--as you did and let her flap while you lower the sail by uncleating the jib halyard and pulling the sail out of the foil (the groove on the aft side of the furler). Once the sail is lowered you can wrap it with bungies till you get to port and safely see what is going on. So far all of the ideas are focused on the top of your sail. However: the fact that the sail is riding so low on the foil and the wire halyard is so loose makes me wonder if it wasn't the drum at the bottom that snarled causing the problem at the top when it broke free. Point is you will have to get a qualified rigger to check it out and then make sure your jib halyard is sufficiently tight for your next sail. Come back after you get it fixed and let us know what happened.
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