Hi, most of my sailing experience is on inland lakes and very few where you lose sight of the shoreline. this year we plan to sail in lake michigan and Im not sure what type of GPS system to buy, I have limited resources so I cant afford a real expensive system. any suggestions? would a handheld gps work for me, any suggestions on brand make or model? I would welcome any input.
I need advice on a GPS system
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If you have that little experience, don't buy one. It's amazing but people sailed all over the place before these things were invented, even in places where navigation is way, way more difficult and critical than Lake Michigan. Buy a chart, parallel rules, dividers, a good clock, and check your compass. It will cost much less than a GPS and teach you things that you absolutely should know even if you have a GPS on board. It's not just a matter of backup if the GPS should die (it's happened to me twice), your ability to navigate with the GPS without getting into trouble will be a lot greater if you understand the basic principles of navigation.
Buy one in a couple years, you'll be a more competent sailor and the units get cheaper and have more capabilities all the time.
Buy one in a couple years, you'll be a more competent sailor and the units get cheaper and have more capabilities all the time.
I agree with Roger... sort of. What he says is true although maybe a little intimidating. Join the local Power Squadron and take the navigation courses. This will make learning proper navigation much easier. They also will show you the advantages and disadvantages of GPS navigation.
I disagree with Roger. Davey Jones claimed a lot of sailors who didn't make it around the world. The charts contained on a gps, even hand-held are great and will make it a lot easier to stay off the bottom.
That is not to say you should stop learning how to sail with charts. It is to say, get out and get some time on board. It will help to make the navigation lessons come alive. But get out on the boat. Experientia sumus docet.
oh btw, I have a Garmin 440 that I love but I'm not aware of anything less than $250 (Garmin 76Cx) that will do the job. My Garmin has helped get me out on the water and off the bottom. Before it, I scraped or touched bottom way too often and with it, not at all. I highly recommend.
That is not to say you should stop learning how to sail with charts. It is to say, get out and get some time on board. It will help to make the navigation lessons come alive. But get out on the boat. Experientia sumus docet.
oh btw, I have a Garmin 440 that I love but I'm not aware of anything less than $250 (Garmin 76Cx) that will do the job. My Garmin has helped get me out on the water and off the bottom. Before it, I scraped or touched bottom way too often and with it, not at all. I highly recommend.
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Do your research and determine what works for you and your sailing area. Having said that, there are many handheld GPS units that have internal reciever, a software interface program and the NOAA charts. There's a lot of different units on the market. Insure you have a unit with the maritime charts (not land mass with roads, etc) and you'll be fine. I agree with the comments above. Have your "old fashion" navigation skills down pat first. Then have fun with the GPS. Bottom-line: Do your research, go to the marine stores and ask questions, do on-line searches, Goggle for pete's sake. Do it all and you'll be surprised at your options.
Oddly enough I agree with both of these view points. Your charts, compass, speed log and time piece are all you need to do 'dead reckoning' navigation which is pretty simple and fairly accurate. On the other hand you can get a decent hand held GPS such as this for $150 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|344|302026|29247&id=1305685
that will give you speed over ground, direction and current location that is quite accurate indeed that can act as backup to your 'dead reckoning'. You don't need a fancy (read expensive) chart plotter to know where you are. The fancier equipment happens to 'eat' batteries at an alarming rate and the simpler stuff is more stable IMH experience.
I have had a unit similar to the one in the link for 7 years that works better then an $800 model. Cheap insurance but learn the basics for when you run out of batteries!
that will give you speed over ground, direction and current location that is quite accurate indeed that can act as backup to your 'dead reckoning'. You don't need a fancy (read expensive) chart plotter to know where you are. The fancier equipment happens to 'eat' batteries at an alarming rate and the simpler stuff is more stable IMH experience.
I have had a unit similar to the one in the link for 7 years that works better then an $800 model. Cheap insurance but learn the basics for when you run out of batteries!
You must be able to know what you are looking at before you can make effective use of it. Go to this web site and down load the charts for the area you plan to sail.
http://ocsdata.ncd.noaa.gov/BookletChart/GreatLakesBookletCharts.htm
Get a set of parallel rules, dividers, and some pencils and learn to plot your course and position. If you sail out from your harbor for an hour and show the direction that you sail with a pencil line on the chart. Then you can know that you can sail back along that same line to get home. The gps is a fun toy but I sailed for several years before I bought the plainest handheld model.
The chart down loads are free.
http://ocsdata.ncd.noaa.gov/BookletChart/GreatLakesBookletCharts.htm
Get a set of parallel rules, dividers, and some pencils and learn to plot your course and position. If you sail out from your harbor for an hour and show the direction that you sail with a pencil line on the chart. Then you can know that you can sail back along that same line to get home. The gps is a fun toy but I sailed for several years before I bought the plainest handheld model.
The chart down loads are free.
It is good to have an understanding of dead reckoning navigation as a back up when your GPS fails, which it may never do, but could do. I really like Garmin GPS's over most other brands because they are so intuitive to use, in my experience.
Garmin has many models, however, and it is important that you get one for marine use that has the ability to chart a course with waypoints, and offer information such as boat speed, miles to your next waypoint or ultimate destination, estimated time of arrival (ETA), compass heading, course and speed over ground - the basic information needed for getting where you wish to go. It is also handy, but not as necessary, to have features that will measure distance between points, etc. You may have to buy map chips for different areas that you intend to sail which contain charts with more detail than the map that comes with the unit. This can be accomplished with either a hand held or a unit that you hard wire in.
Garmin has many models, however, and it is important that you get one for marine use that has the ability to chart a course with waypoints, and offer information such as boat speed, miles to your next waypoint or ultimate destination, estimated time of arrival (ETA), compass heading, course and speed over ground - the basic information needed for getting where you wish to go. It is also handy, but not as necessary, to have features that will measure distance between points, etc. You may have to buy map chips for different areas that you intend to sail which contain charts with more detail than the map that comes with the unit. This can be accomplished with either a hand held or a unit that you hard wire in.
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Garmin 400C is probably the best buy right now at $299 at West Marine. Good Coastal charts and decent screen for a handheld. If that's too much, then look at a garmin 72 series. I have a Garmin GPS 12 and a 72 that each cost about $100 bucks off ebay. The 72 has all of the red and green channel markers viisble but unnamed and has a anchor alarm which I like. Either is good for finding your way home in the fog or dark by tracing back your track.
It doesn't have to be intimidating. I used to give a quick piloting course in Boston so sailing club members could could take the Pearson 26's out and find their way around. This was back when even Loran was uncommon on cruising boats.
I started my class by telling them that I was going to tell them how to do just about 6 things and they were very simple. But, they needed to be able to do them when they were tired, when they were scared, when they were seasick, and with a flashlight held in their mouth. I could teach them in a couple of classes but the only way they could learn to do them well enough was to navigate every moment they were in the boat and do it in good weather when they could see everything and correlate what they were doing with what they could see.
Don't ask me exactly what those six things were, it was a long time ago and I'd have to give it some thought. I do know though that all the years I cruised without electronics, I didn't use any more methods than those. I think a lot of the courses try to teach you too much and to do it too precisely, as if you were the watch officer in a dry pilothouse with nothing to do except navigate and hold your coffee cup. When you are steering and doing it with one hand ducking the spray and trying to work the parallel rules on the cockpit sea, simpler methods work better.
The other thing I told them was, "There is no such thing as finding out where you are. There is just keeping track of where you are starting when you leave the dock." (Talking just about coastal piloting her. Using a sextant is all together different.)
You can take a course and pass it and go out on the water and be helpless. You can read a couple of books, think it through, practice in good weather, gradually increase your proficiency, and do quite well. That's not to say you shouldn't take a course but that what you do with the knowledge on the water and how intelligently and creatively you practice will be more important.
I reconfirmed this principle for myself when I learned how to fly. The navigation is similar but it happens faster. Because of my sailing experience, I refused to turn on the Loran or GPS for the first two years I flew and did everything on my lap. I developed a feeling for timing, and distances, and situational awareness that I never would have playing video games on the panel. When I started using the electronic navigation, I could tell that the two years of doing it by hand were absolutely worthwhile.
I won't get into what to do first, but if you want to sail while learning how to chart courses a Garmin Map76 will get you home or where you want to go as long as you have the waypoints for those places. We bought one last year for $150 new and the other day we got a second off of E-bay for $85 and it appears to be new as it still had the protective cover on the display and all of the orginal packaging.
For what you want to do I would get 2, so that you do have a back-up if one were to fail. You could probably pick up two for under $200 total if you weren't in a hurry.
I'm a firm believer in maps, but don't know how to chart a course like the guys are talking about. I'll work on that, but mean while I'll use my ability to read maps and work the GPS to sail.
Download the free SeaClear program and also the free NOAA maps that were mentioned and learn how to use them together to chart courses. They are really pretty simple to use and it is easy to plot a course and download the waypoints to your two GPS's.
It is somewhat hard for anyone to tell you what you can and can't do without knowing you basic ability to read maps and such. You are going to have to be the judge of that and your capabilities and rule on the safe side.
I'm in the initial stages of building a chart plotter......
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/Comp-ChartPlot-Index.html
.... with a 12 volt computer. You could load the SeaClear and NOAA maps into a laptop and with a $35 GPS puck have a chartplotter. Not one I would want to use in the cockpit and I would still want to have the two handhelds, but it would show you where you were on the NOAA map at anytime without the need to buy and download the Garmin charts for your area. It you had the money though I would probably buy those along with the handhelds.
c ya, be careful, and have fun,
Sum
Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID
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For what you want to do I would get 2, so that you do have a back-up if one were to fail. You could probably pick up two for under $200 total if you weren't in a hurry.
I'm a firm believer in maps, but don't know how to chart a course like the guys are talking about. I'll work on that, but mean while I'll use my ability to read maps and work the GPS to sail.
Download the free SeaClear program and also the free NOAA maps that were mentioned and learn how to use them together to chart courses. They are really pretty simple to use and it is easy to plot a course and download the waypoints to your two GPS's.
It is somewhat hard for anyone to tell you what you can and can't do without knowing you basic ability to read maps and such. You are going to have to be the judge of that and your capabilities and rule on the safe side.
I'm in the initial stages of building a chart plotter......
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/Comp-ChartPlot-Index.html
.... with a 12 volt computer. You could load the SeaClear and NOAA maps into a laptop and with a $35 GPS puck have a chartplotter. Not one I would want to use in the cockpit and I would still want to have the two handhelds, but it would show you where you were on the NOAA map at anytime without the need to buy and download the Garmin charts for your area. It you had the money though I would probably buy those along with the handhelds.
c ya, be careful, and have fun,
Sum
Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID
Our Mac Pages
Mac Links
I would highly recommend you learn to navigate the traditional, non-GPS based, way before buying a GPS. Not only does it teach you a lot about proper navigation and what to be aware of, especially if you take a decent USCGAux or US Power Squadron navigation course, it will work even if the GPS you eventually get fails.
This is a better foundation for a new sailor than buying any GPS is... because unless you know how to navigate without one, you can't really figure out when the GPS is lying to you...and make no mistake...there will be times when the GPS is lying to you...and if you listen to it blindly, you'll end up regretting it.
This is a better foundation for a new sailor than buying any GPS is... because unless you know how to navigate without one, you can't really figure out when the GPS is lying to you...and make no mistake...there will be times when the GPS is lying to you...and if you listen to it blindly, you'll end up regretting it.
Re: GPS System Advice
You have recieved lots of advice on the merrits of GPS and or Chart navigation so I'll focus my comments on GPS electronics. I have 3 on my boat and I use all 3 almost every time I go out for different purposes. As with most everything, you get what you pay for and there is a point of diminishing returns.
The original is a very old Garmin that I use to simply display my current lat / lon position. I use this to keep a log of that position at appropriate intervals when making passages. The other benefit of this unit is one of the first questions from the CG responding to a distress call is where are you. With this unit always displaying present position that info is always readily available should the need arise. A unit with this capability could be had for <$100 today.
The second unit is a Garmin 76csx for which I have also purchased the local chart package such that it can be used as a chart plotter. The benefits of being able to compare the depth and bouys on the screen to what you can see visually is invaluable. It will run ~24 hours on 2 AA batteries or I also have a 12v plug similar to your cell phone charger that will power it. I like that I can take it on whatever boat I am on. This unit can be had for ~$300
The final unit is a Garmin GPSmap492. This unit is also a chartplotter with very similar functionality to the 76csx. The biggest improvement is that it has a screen that is 2x larger. I find that the larger screen, mounted at the helm is much easier to compare what you are seeing on the screen to what you are seeing on the water. It is easier to glance between the two. This unit also provides tide information for your current location which won't be of much use in Lake MI, but is quite nice here on the FL coast where you get 2 high and 2 low tides a day that can be 5'+ different. Units similar to this can be had in the $500's.
I have been on friends boats with GPS plotters which cost in excess of $2000 that except for having a larger screen than the 492 really didn't offer any other benefit.
Having any sort of GPS on your boat will provide you with information you don't currently have available, hopefully the info above helps you to figure out which type might be best for you.
Good Luck,
--Eric
You have recieved lots of advice on the merrits of GPS and or Chart navigation so I'll focus my comments on GPS electronics. I have 3 on my boat and I use all 3 almost every time I go out for different purposes. As with most everything, you get what you pay for and there is a point of diminishing returns.
The original is a very old Garmin that I use to simply display my current lat / lon position. I use this to keep a log of that position at appropriate intervals when making passages. The other benefit of this unit is one of the first questions from the CG responding to a distress call is where are you. With this unit always displaying present position that info is always readily available should the need arise. A unit with this capability could be had for <$100 today.
The second unit is a Garmin 76csx for which I have also purchased the local chart package such that it can be used as a chart plotter. The benefits of being able to compare the depth and bouys on the screen to what you can see visually is invaluable. It will run ~24 hours on 2 AA batteries or I also have a 12v plug similar to your cell phone charger that will power it. I like that I can take it on whatever boat I am on. This unit can be had for ~$300
The final unit is a Garmin GPSmap492. This unit is also a chartplotter with very similar functionality to the 76csx. The biggest improvement is that it has a screen that is 2x larger. I find that the larger screen, mounted at the helm is much easier to compare what you are seeing on the screen to what you are seeing on the water. It is easier to glance between the two. This unit also provides tide information for your current location which won't be of much use in Lake MI, but is quite nice here on the FL coast where you get 2 high and 2 low tides a day that can be 5'+ different. Units similar to this can be had in the $500's.
I have been on friends boats with GPS plotters which cost in excess of $2000 that except for having a larger screen than the 492 really didn't offer any other benefit.
Having any sort of GPS on your boat will provide you with information you don't currently have available, hopefully the info above helps you to figure out which type might be best for you.
Good Luck,
--Eric
Dear Ridesroadking1
I think all the responses are pretty solid. I bought a Garmin 478 two years ago and it has been very good. I use paper charts, and log my position, heading, speed etc. in my log book as well, so I know pretty well where I am.
I would also recommend redundancy in your communications. I have two vhf radios, one hand held, one hard wired in with an antenna at the mast head.
If you are sailing a 23' Pearson, on Lake Michigan, I would be mindful of the weather patterns, and along with the recommended navigation training others have suggested, consider some weather training as well. That is one featuer I like on the 478 is the dopplar weather, and other weather features, wave height, direction etc.
I have had outstanding service from Garmin, so would certainly consider them.
I think all the responses are pretty solid. I bought a Garmin 478 two years ago and it has been very good. I use paper charts, and log my position, heading, speed etc. in my log book as well, so I know pretty well where I am.
I would also recommend redundancy in your communications. I have two vhf radios, one hand held, one hard wired in with an antenna at the mast head.
If you are sailing a 23' Pearson, on Lake Michigan, I would be mindful of the weather patterns, and along with the recommended navigation training others have suggested, consider some weather training as well. That is one featuer I like on the 478 is the dopplar weather, and other weather features, wave height, direction etc.
I have had outstanding service from Garmin, so would certainly consider them.
Lots of good suggestions including charts and courses.
I have a Garmin 76S and find it serves my needs. You can use a PC to insert way points and routes and then download to the Garmin. Unit is not all the user friendly but interfaces well with PC.
I have a Garmin 76S and find it serves my needs. You can use a PC to insert way points and routes and then download to the Garmin. Unit is not all the user friendly but interfaces well with PC.
There is an alternative to the suggestions above. Standard Horizon makes a handheld VHF HX850S that's in the $250 range. Besides giving communication capability it has GPS with Lat/Long and SOG and COG readings. It has an output for connecting to chart plotters or a laptop for future expansion. It also supports Canadian frequencies as well as weather and has a single button DSC.
I would highly recommend some type of GPS, since I consider it safety equipment. Learning conventional navigation is a useful skill and a GPS can give you feedback on how good your back-up navigaion is.
I would highly recommend some type of GPS, since I consider it safety equipment. Learning conventional navigation is a useful skill and a GPS can give you feedback on how good your back-up navigaion is.
I agree strongly with the majority here that is very important to learn the basics before getting a GPS for much more than a confirmation of dead reckoning exercises. Not unlike the MRI we used to use in college chem labs to validate quant/qual experiments. I'm also a pilot, and am getting very nervous about students now that view flying as a mere video game and haven't mastered the basics of dead reckoning in the sky and the old "stick and rudder." That said, I'm surprised that someone hasn't mentioned an iPhone with $10 Navionics software app as a pretty sophisticated GPS/chartplotter. And you can use it to call for help, too!
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I loooove my iPhone and the Navionics app. I velcro it where it is needed. I bought the app when it was only $4.99 and have been updating it free of charge ever since. I leave my laptop on the nav table where it speaks to the autopilot. The navionics software is the only plotter that gives me bottom contours in feet wrt to the surface of the water. Everything else requires me to go to the internet to find the daily pool height and use the value to mentaly compute depth. It is a p.i.t.a. Did I mention I love my iPhone and Navionics app?
Not if you don't have cell phone network coverage. I'd point out that calling for help via VHF makes a lot more sense, since it isn't dependent on cell phone network coverage and is a broadcast (one-to-many) versus a point-to-point (one-to-one) system. The chances of you getting help quickly is far higher with a VHF broadcast, than it is with a cell phone broadcast. Also, you don't have to know the local USCG number to use a VHF...just get on Channel 16 and call for help... with a cell, calling 911, isn't so useful on a boat.
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