I just found one of my keel bolts in my bilge.

[Ol Dave]

No kidding, I was flabbergasted. It's a '83 Hunter 27 with a fixed lead keel. Yesterday when I lifed the cabin sole, I found one of the bolts had broken off flush with the hull. The retaining nut still attached. I still have 7 other bolts, but what do I do now? Can this be fixed ... Do I have to "Pull" the boat ... Will I have to mortgage the farm ... what gives?

 

[Ross]

The first thing to do is suspect the rest of the

bolts. This is a prime example of stress corrosion cracking.

 

[Tim R.]

Drop the keel

Get it out of the water and have a yard drop the keel. It is the only way to properly inspect the bolts. This is much less expensive than having them raise it from the depths!BTW, please post a picture of both the broken off bolt and the stud left in the bilge. Close ups would be nice so we can see the corrosion that caused this.Tim R.

 

[Fred]

Before you drop the keel consider how Catalina

deals with this. They sell a set of 10" (for the C27) stainless lag screws (wood screw threads on one end and machine threads for a nut on the other) that you screw into the lead keel in new holes drilled next to the old bolts. The lags are dipped in epoxy before they're screwd into the lead keel. The screw threads hold very well indeed in the lead. I think the epoxy may be to help seal up any gaps and, in the case of a Catalina keel, to isolate bits of steel left from the recycled wheel weights they used for the lead. It's important to drill the right size hole for the lag. Too small and it won't screw in. Too big and it won't hold.There is no advantage to removing the keel. You can't put new bolts in the old holes anyway. See last paragraph for the "ultimate" fix.Catalina owner's have been using this fix for years. The "Catalina Smile" is very common. It's fair to say it's a well proven system.Before you get too worried, haul the boat, have it set on the hard with quite a bit of weight on the keel (so it's tight to the hull as you tighten the hull/keel joint), then back off the remaining nuts and inspect the bolts. Next, if they look and sound OK (hit them wih a small hammer or another bolt. If they ring, that's good.) tighten the nuts with big washers under them using a torque wrench. If Hunter doesn't have torque specs use Catalina specs for a similar size Catalina. If they take the torque with no twisting or breaking off, that's good but not proof that they're really OK.When I did this job on a Catalina 27 recently, only the front bolt seemed bad. I installed the whole kit of five bolts anyway. What the hell, you're there with all the tools and beer. Why stop after only one? (bolt, I mean) For folks where the torque on their sphincter is such that they won't trust the lag screws, you can still drill down into the keel, then drill holes across the keel to intersect the up and down holes so you can insert new nuts and washers on the bottom end of the new bolts. Or, for the ultimate fix, drill new holes all the way through the keel and put in full length bolts.

 

[higgs]

Fred's response sounds reasonble...

and should work. If it were me, I would either bring in a surveyor or a boat yard guy I really trusted. I used to store at a place where the yard guys really knew their stuff and I had complete faith in them. This is not a put down to Fred, becasue his response makes a lot of sense and I would think it should work, I would just want a second opinion from someone who would have seen these problems before and deals with them for a living.

 

[Tim R.]

Catalina fix

You are just putting a bandaid on the problem. The keel bolts probably rusted because of sea water coming through the keel/hull joint. I would drop the keel and inspect before you do anything further. I am quite sure this will bring criticism from everyone on this board that has already done this fix. This is just my opinion and I am not saying it is wrong so please keep the flames to a minimum.Tim R.

 

[higgs]

I seem to have lost a post

i seem to get second thoughts a lot after I post a response.finding one bolt in the condition you describe, would make me question the integrity of the other keel bolts.New keel boats are not the end of the world so be cool, it may cost a some, but your boat is not ruined. Pulling the boat will probably be inevitable.To put this in perspective, a friend of mine, back in the 80's was spending around 5k for a Coronado 25 which the surveyor said needed all new keel bolts. The owner agreed to replace them before completing the deal. That should give some kind of yard stick for a worst case scenario.One more thought - pulling a keel is not that big of a deal. A lot of racing boats do it every time they transport the boat. You will get through this.

 

[Franklin]

Salt water?

So why is it so bad to get salt water at your keel bolts? Don't all keel bolts soak in salt water from the drippings from the packing gland?

 

[higgs]

Franklin

That would depend on your boat. If the gland is higher up than your keel bolts and the gland water runs to the keelbolts, then your statement is right. If that is how one's boat is designed, then it will only be a matter of time before the keel bolts need to be replaced.

 

[Tim R.]

Galvonic corrosion

Your keel bolts are at a higher risk of corrosion if they are sitting in the same water as stray electircal current outside the hull. This is often the case in crowded marinas. Driveshafts have zincs. Keel bolts do not. Standing sea water that is isolated from the outside poses much less problems.Tim R.

 

[Larry Wilson]

Which bolt was it?

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention which bolt it was. First,last, in the middle? It's possible a previous owner overtorqued and the bolt sheared off in a later grounding event or some other trauma, such as a sloppy haul out. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have the boat hauled and the remaining bolts sistered, as suggested, but I wouldn't freak out over it. You can do the whole job yourself for less than a thousand, including the haul out. And while you're at it, you can clean and paint the bottom, and check your rudder for water intrusion, renew your thru hulls, upgrade your depth sounder and log, and install a new packing gland. Hmmm...maybe you SHOULD consider that mortgage....(I'm kidding) (maybe). Larry WilsonRichmond,Va.

 

[Ol Dave]

Here's what I know

Thanks for the input. The sheared bolt was second row port, or #2 12 34 56 7 8I am at least the fourth owner. Before me were at least two other saltwater owners. Yes Franklin I suffer from a "wet" bilge, it never empties completely so the bolts have been submerged for a long time. Plus there was visible seepage from around the sheared bolt.It has been on a lake in Tennessee for the last three years ... a REMOTE lake ... the nearest yard is 70 miles away. The next nearest yard is 200 miles plus. Round trip to the yard and back is $1,500 to $2,000 depending on the season and their schedule. You can bet when I have it hauled I'll do all my pocketbook and free time will allow. Tim, I don't have pictures today, but I'll be glad to share them when I do. From the response, this is something that may be of interest to others.Ol'Dave

 

[Franklin]

Round trip?

Can't you sail (under sail or power) it there in one day and then sail it back when they are done? If you do the ping test and they sound good I wouldn't worry about sailing there; you have 7 other bolts. I only have 4 bolts for my keel Good thing they were checked this summer

 

[Fred]

Boats around here sit in salt water all year, year

after year. They don't all lose their keel bolts, although it's not uncommon.One cheerful note is that we very seldom hear of a boat actually losing its keel. They gradually leak more so the owner get the message and takes action. The ones with stainless bolts last a lot longer than older boats with galvanized keel bolts.Higgs, no offence taken when you suggest a second opinion. I hope there's no offence taken when I say that it's unlikely that Dave will find anyone nearby who "really knows this stuff". Dave, call Catalina Yachts and talk to their tech folks. The H 27 is close enough to the C27 so the information should help.Have you talked to the Hunter factory? They have been great when I had questions about my H26. As far as the statement that the Catalina lag bolt fix is a "bandaid", Tim, what do you accomplish by taking the keel off for "inspection". We start by assuming the old bolts are bad and move on to attach the keel to the boat, which requires the boat and keel to be together. Taking the keel off is more work than reattaching it with new bolts and nuts through crossholes in the lead, which isn't really that hard. Surely you wouldn't call that a bandaid.

 

[Fred]

Dave, can you build a cradle and drag the boat up

on shore? maybe even buy or borrow a trailer? Is there a ramp?Sorry, I didn't realize you were in a remote spot. You get to be self reliant! A steel cradle would be way better than a wood cradle if you have to make one. A steel cradle on a flat deck trailer is a possible, option if you can't find a boat trailer. Or just put plywood under the steel cradle and drag it with a pickup or backhoe.If you get sufficient assurance from your panel of experts so you're comfortable with either the Catalina fix, or the drill hole with crossholes for nuts fix, you can do this work yourself. There are a few tricks to get the holes more or less straight, but it ain't rocket science. Once the boat is out of the water you can adjust how it sits on the keel so the keel hull joint is tight.Is there electricity where your boat is?You can drill lead with regular wood bits. If you resharpen them, they will cut lead better if the cutting angle is flatter than for wood. You need to pull the bit out and clear the hole REALLY OFTEN or the bit will bind and break and you may have to leave it there.

 

[Honeyman]

I just don't think...

I'd be freaking out about 1 bolt if there were 7 others and it wasn't leaking LOTS of water. My 28.5 only had 4 bolts as I recall and I'm pretty sure my 35.5 only has 4, like Franklin's 376. It's NOT just gonna fall off. Is there a large crack around the base of the keel joint? I'd do a LOT of investigation before I spent much money and/or a lot of time worrying about it!

 

[Fred]

Honeyman is probably right. If it was my boat

I'd just keep sailing and wait for opportunity, like somebody launches from a trailer and asks you to store it for them ;-)You won't be stuck days from land with the boat slowly coming apart under you. How big is that lake?I do love to give the rest of you all advice about how you should work on your boats, though, while mine sits on a trailer covered with snow.

 

[NYSail]

Impact

Did you happen to hit anything over the summer.....or since you last checked under the floor boards?Greg