I am looking at purchasing a new (to me) boat as a cruising boat. It is 33' and was obviously born to be a racer based on the gear. It has rod rigging and a hydraulic system for tensioning the stays and vang. I do not race and think I might like to simplify this system, but since I have no experience with this stuff I am looking for opinions on the following: 1. Hydraulics - remove them or keep them - what kind of reliability do these systems have, power requirements, etc. If I blow a hydraulic line does the rig go slack? 2. Rod rigging - is probably over 10 years old, should I replace? If removing hydraulics should I consider going to wire over rod rigging. The boat is a double spreader masthead rig, has a hydraulic baby stay and running backstays with blocks for tensioning in addition to the hydraulic backstay - are all of these overkill for someone who wants to daysail and cruise? How much can I remove and still enjoy sailing my boat? I am looking to keep life aboard as simple as possible. Thanks.
Hydraulic rig adjustment
- Thread starter muised
- Start date
- Status
I would think about things I can't change.
Like the hull profile of the sailboat you are looking at. If you are thinking about cruising in sailboat built for racing, you might be in for an uncomfortable surprise.
Like the hull profile of the sailboat you are looking at. If you are thinking about cruising in sailboat built for racing, you might be in for an uncomfortable surprise.
Find another boat
Unless you are getting a great deal on the boat and can afford to replace the rigging, and return the boat to a cruiser, I would walk away from it. There are too many boats for sale out there all ready to go. A friend of mine lost his entire rig when the rod rigging broke. I trust wire rigging before rod anyday. Just my opinion - Okiman
Unless you are getting a great deal on the boat and can afford to replace the rigging, and return the boat to a cruiser, I would walk away from it. There are too many boats for sale out there all ready to go. A friend of mine lost his entire rig when the rod rigging broke. I trust wire rigging before rod anyday. Just my opinion - Okiman
A good deal
The boat is obtainable for a very reasonable price, and I have the budget to replace the standing and running rigging (something I think I would like to do on any boat this age with rigging of unknown vintage). It is not an ultra-light displacement boat, so I'm thinking it will be fairly comfortable, although it has a large sail plan. Specs are: Displacement - 9500 lbs LOA - 33' LWL - 27'6" Beam - 10'6" Draft - 6' Seems to be in the same ball park as a C&C 33, CS33, Mirage 33, Tartan 33, and several other "racer-cruisers". I understand that every boat is a compromise - I have been looking around and seen a lot of overpriced junk. Even boats in good condition have not been very inspiring, but this one really turns my crank. I have no experience with rod rigging (I am moving up from an O'Day 25) and think I would prefer to rig it with wire for ease of repair, etc.
The boat is obtainable for a very reasonable price, and I have the budget to replace the standing and running rigging (something I think I would like to do on any boat this age with rigging of unknown vintage). It is not an ultra-light displacement boat, so I'm thinking it will be fairly comfortable, although it has a large sail plan. Specs are: Displacement - 9500 lbs LOA - 33' LWL - 27'6" Beam - 10'6" Draft - 6' Seems to be in the same ball park as a C&C 33, CS33, Mirage 33, Tartan 33, and several other "racer-cruisers". I understand that every boat is a compromise - I have been looking around and seen a lot of overpriced junk. Even boats in good condition have not been very inspiring, but this one really turns my crank. I have no experience with rod rigging (I am moving up from an O'Day 25) and think I would prefer to rig it with wire for ease of repair, etc.
rod rigging
all these sail controls HELP you sail the boat.(they will not help you cook meals, or serve cocktails) but then again, this is a sailboat. Even my cruising sailboat has as many sail controls as most of the faster racers as these things help sail the boat. If you are purchasing this boat, do not get rid of important sailing controls. THEY WILL HELP YOU SAIL THE BOAT BETTER. as for the rigging, rod rigging can last more than twice the lenght of time as wire rigging. Get a rigger to do an inspection.
all these sail controls HELP you sail the boat.(they will not help you cook meals, or serve cocktails) but then again, this is a sailboat. Even my cruising sailboat has as many sail controls as most of the faster racers as these things help sail the boat. If you are purchasing this boat, do not get rid of important sailing controls. THEY WILL HELP YOU SAIL THE BOAT BETTER. as for the rigging, rod rigging can last more than twice the lenght of time as wire rigging. Get a rigger to do an inspection.
What year is the boat?
Rod Rigging is not standard on these boats. Hence, it was done AFTER the boat was initially purchased. So it may still be in good shape. If you go for the boat, have the surveyor pay close attention to the rigging to allay any concerns that you might have. It also sounds like the boat was raced. Pay particular attention to the survey report and let the surveyor know that it was used for racing. He may be a little more diligent in the survey if he knows this. Raced boat are pushed boats. So there may be more wear/tear than you would expect.
Rod Rigging is not standard on these boats. Hence, it was done AFTER the boat was initially purchased. So it may still be in good shape. If you go for the boat, have the surveyor pay close attention to the rigging to allay any concerns that you might have. It also sounds like the boat was raced. Pay particular attention to the survey report and let the surveyor know that it was used for racing. He may be a little more diligent in the survey if he knows this. Raced boat are pushed boats. So there may be more wear/tear than you would expect.
Don't change anything......
....that's my opinion. Sail it for a season the way it is then make up your mind what you want to change. I don't see any problem with hydraulics....the power is provided by the human arm that pumps the handle. Let the surveyor give you an opinion on the rigging. Since you're only going to be daysailing or coastal cruising there will be much less stress on the rig tha racing or offshore cruising. You should be okay.
....that's my opinion. Sail it for a season the way it is then make up your mind what you want to change. I don't see any problem with hydraulics....the power is provided by the human arm that pumps the handle. Let the surveyor give you an opinion on the rigging. Since you're only going to be daysailing or coastal cruising there will be much less stress on the rig tha racing or offshore cruising. You should be okay.
racy
IMHO, buying that boat to cruise in would be like buying an older race car to use for a daily driver. The boat's numbers are all wrong for what you want to use it for, that's why its price is low - it's obsolete and noncompetitive, but it will still sail like a race boat. It is lightly built to save weight, with a lot of sail area. It will be tender, flightly, difficult to handle, with a lot sail handling gear that you won't use but that could fail, leaving you...where? The interior is probably bare bones, with little in the way of creature comforts, like a large cockpit, comfortable bunks and a decent head.I would bet too that the mainsheet traveler is in the cockpit. You don't want that. What you want is a boat with a simple, robust design with the minimum gear necessary to do what you want, which is daysail and/or liveaboard. There's an old adage - "Buying a used hot-rod is buying someone else's problems" - The same applies to boats.
IMHO, buying that boat to cruise in would be like buying an older race car to use for a daily driver. The boat's numbers are all wrong for what you want to use it for, that's why its price is low - it's obsolete and noncompetitive, but it will still sail like a race boat. It is lightly built to save weight, with a lot of sail area. It will be tender, flightly, difficult to handle, with a lot sail handling gear that you won't use but that could fail, leaving you...where? The interior is probably bare bones, with little in the way of creature comforts, like a large cockpit, comfortable bunks and a decent head.I would bet too that the mainsheet traveler is in the cockpit. You don't want that. What you want is a boat with a simple, robust design with the minimum gear necessary to do what you want, which is daysail and/or liveaboard. There's an old adage - "Buying a used hot-rod is buying someone else's problems" - The same applies to boats.
BEAM
Most of the sail & rigging items have been discussed already, but I would like to point out one more item. A beam of 10'6" is certainly not what I would call a narrow boat, but I can assure you from experience that even a little more beam makes a boat much more comfortable, as far as living comfort is concerned. There are lots of boats out there in this size, with beams over 11. If you can find one, look at the inside of an Allmand 31, as an example. ( No, I do not own one.) But I spent some time on one last year and they are roomy. My current boat, Seidelman 37, has a beam of 12', and the difference between it and 10'6" doesn't sound like much, but makes a ton of difference in interior volume and comfort. If you are interested in weekend sailing, and cruising, creature comforts do need to be given major consideration.
Most of the sail & rigging items have been discussed already, but I would like to point out one more item. A beam of 10'6" is certainly not what I would call a narrow boat, but I can assure you from experience that even a little more beam makes a boat much more comfortable, as far as living comfort is concerned. There are lots of boats out there in this size, with beams over 11. If you can find one, look at the inside of an Allmand 31, as an example. ( No, I do not own one.) But I spent some time on one last year and they are roomy. My current boat, Seidelman 37, has a beam of 12', and the difference between it and 10'6" doesn't sound like much, but makes a ton of difference in interior volume and comfort. If you are interested in weekend sailing, and cruising, creature comforts do need to be given major consideration.
Once again a poor guy asks a question
about the rigging, and the thread goes into advice about the type of boat, which he never asked for. Of the things you mentioned, running backstays are the biggest concern to me. I have had several old gaff rigged boats, and the running backstays can be a lot of hassle. You need an extra crew member just on the running backs to tack to windward unless the sail is sheeted right in tight. If there's any breeze and the running backs are not handled right, you lose your mast. That said, it may be that the running backs are just to balance the baby stay, and you don't need them most of the time. I would want a professional opinion on this question. Hydraulics are generally very reliable. Most hydraulic backstay adjusters are like a hydraulic car jack; the fluid is in the unit. No hoses to break. It would probably ease off slowly if it developed a leak. You could carry a couple of shackles, some chain and a spare turnbuckle for an emergency repair if it worries you. Rod rigging should last longer than wire, because it it one big piece instead of a bunch of small strands. On the other hand, if the boat was raced hard,or any of the rods have been damaged by collisions with docks, piling, or other boats, it may need replacing. Get a real expert to look closely at the rods. New wire is pretty cheap. Don't fix anything until you do your homework and really know if it needs fixing. There will be plenty on any used boat that does need fixing without looking for extra work and expense.
about the rigging, and the thread goes into advice about the type of boat, which he never asked for. Of the things you mentioned, running backstays are the biggest concern to me. I have had several old gaff rigged boats, and the running backstays can be a lot of hassle. You need an extra crew member just on the running backs to tack to windward unless the sail is sheeted right in tight. If there's any breeze and the running backs are not handled right, you lose your mast. That said, it may be that the running backs are just to balance the baby stay, and you don't need them most of the time. I would want a professional opinion on this question. Hydraulics are generally very reliable. Most hydraulic backstay adjusters are like a hydraulic car jack; the fluid is in the unit. No hoses to break. It would probably ease off slowly if it developed a leak. You could carry a couple of shackles, some chain and a spare turnbuckle for an emergency repair if it worries you. Rod rigging should last longer than wire, because it it one big piece instead of a bunch of small strands. On the other hand, if the boat was raced hard,or any of the rods have been damaged by collisions with docks, piling, or other boats, it may need replacing. Get a real expert to look closely at the rods. New wire is pretty cheap. Don't fix anything until you do your homework and really know if it needs fixing. There will be plenty on any used boat that does need fixing without looking for extra work and expense.
Thank you Fred
I specifically didn't identify the type of boat because opinions are like ... well you know, everybody's got one. This boat gets me into a size that I otherwise could not afford in our local market. It's big enough to convince my wife its a cruiser, and I have the potential to have a little more fun. It has features most would hate, like no head or plumbing, teak decks that need a bunch of work, and a weird layout below. But it also has four self-tailing winches, sail controls well laid out with lines led aft, relatively new sails, and everything is oversized (my opinion). I look at it as a blank canvas that I can do what I want with. No plumbing means there is only one thu-hull to worry about, so anything I add will be at least done to my specifications. I know it is an orphan - nobody but me could love it and I'll be stuck with it forever, or until I sink it or burn it to the waterline. My cruising plans for the next 5-6 years are up to a week at a time with my wife and two kids, aged 9 and 10, and I think it will fit our requirements. There is a backstay along with the running backstays, so I'm assuming these could be ignored for the most part. I will be having a rigger check out the boat, as well as a survey and a diesel mechanic. If all is servicable, I will probably sail it for a season before making any modifications. My main concern is that the hydraulics would just be something else to fail or maintain that I might be able to get rid of. Thanks all for the input on rod rigging, I feel more comfortable now.
I specifically didn't identify the type of boat because opinions are like ... well you know, everybody's got one. This boat gets me into a size that I otherwise could not afford in our local market. It's big enough to convince my wife its a cruiser, and I have the potential to have a little more fun. It has features most would hate, like no head or plumbing, teak decks that need a bunch of work, and a weird layout below. But it also has four self-tailing winches, sail controls well laid out with lines led aft, relatively new sails, and everything is oversized (my opinion). I look at it as a blank canvas that I can do what I want with. No plumbing means there is only one thu-hull to worry about, so anything I add will be at least done to my specifications. I know it is an orphan - nobody but me could love it and I'll be stuck with it forever, or until I sink it or burn it to the waterline. My cruising plans for the next 5-6 years are up to a week at a time with my wife and two kids, aged 9 and 10, and I think it will fit our requirements. There is a backstay along with the running backstays, so I'm assuming these could be ignored for the most part. I will be having a rigger check out the boat, as well as a survey and a diesel mechanic. If all is servicable, I will probably sail it for a season before making any modifications. My main concern is that the hydraulics would just be something else to fail or maintain that I might be able to get rid of. Thanks all for the input on rod rigging, I feel more comfortable now.
Safety first muised
So, I take it your questions revolve around the entire rig? Add to that, you want to convert it back to a cruising boat. So, I’d say ….. don’t buy, keep shopping. Consider, as a 33’ racer, it’s rigged for a crew of 4 or 5 to manage, you’d spend a small fortune setting it up for a crew of two or single handing. Just look at it and imagine what it’d take just to tack or jibe that boat, running backstays and all. Thinking it over, if the boat has a hydraulic backstay, you might’a meant it has running back/babystays. Even so, these too are a pain in the butt during a short handed tack or jibe. Even if your wife is good on the helm, raising sails, tacking, reefing and everything else, you’d be running around like a madman on the best of days. Imagine a situation where you tumble overboard while scurrying around the boat. That leaves the missus with a lot to deal with in order to come about to fetch you. If you do buy, keep the hydraulic backstay, that’s a handy gadget! Rod rigging. That’s toughy, I’m not a fan, there’s only ONE rod per stay, but many wires per stay. I’d pull the rig and very carefully examine every connection and tang, even the smallest of flaws or wear can spell doom. Keep in mind also, regular inspections are a must for rod rigging. Is there a link to a website so we can learn a little more about this boat? Ferg
So, I take it your questions revolve around the entire rig? Add to that, you want to convert it back to a cruising boat. So, I’d say ….. don’t buy, keep shopping. Consider, as a 33’ racer, it’s rigged for a crew of 4 or 5 to manage, you’d spend a small fortune setting it up for a crew of two or single handing. Just look at it and imagine what it’d take just to tack or jibe that boat, running backstays and all. Thinking it over, if the boat has a hydraulic backstay, you might’a meant it has running back/babystays. Even so, these too are a pain in the butt during a short handed tack or jibe. Even if your wife is good on the helm, raising sails, tacking, reefing and everything else, you’d be running around like a madman on the best of days. Imagine a situation where you tumble overboard while scurrying around the boat. That leaves the missus with a lot to deal with in order to come about to fetch you. If you do buy, keep the hydraulic backstay, that’s a handy gadget! Rod rigging. That’s toughy, I’m not a fan, there’s only ONE rod per stay, but many wires per stay. I’d pull the rig and very carefully examine every connection and tang, even the smallest of flaws or wear can spell doom. Keep in mind also, regular inspections are a must for rod rigging. Is there a link to a website so we can learn a little more about this boat? Ferg
making a mistake
You are about to make a costly mistake. That boat is not suitable for what you want. Remember, the sweetness of a low price is soon replaced by the bitterness of realizing you F'ed up. I've done it before myself. Take the advice of the years of experience represented here; keep looking. Why don't you join a sailing club and get some experience on several boats before taking the leap into ownership, especially if this is your first boat. What good is a hydraulic backstay and four ST winches if your too-light boat has taken a knockdown? I would advise against taking kids on that boat,too. Look for an older Catalina 30 in your area, even if you have to travel some to find one. Believe me, you'll be better off.
You are about to make a costly mistake. That boat is not suitable for what you want. Remember, the sweetness of a low price is soon replaced by the bitterness of realizing you F'ed up. I've done it before myself. Take the advice of the years of experience represented here; keep looking. Why don't you join a sailing club and get some experience on several boats before taking the leap into ownership, especially if this is your first boat. What good is a hydraulic backstay and four ST winches if your too-light boat has taken a knockdown? I would advise against taking kids on that boat,too. Look for an older Catalina 30 in your area, even if you have to travel some to find one. Believe me, you'll be better off.
Low cost, regardless of what you add
also generally means lower resale value. The doubts you express about the rigging are warranted and have been answered. The points made about the rest of the boat, even if unasked, are also valid, given the fact that the boat is a whole "system." Your description of the boat as a system appears axially opposed to your sailing goals. (Ha, ha, another engineer
) Really, if you wanted a minivan would you buy a Porsche? The difficulty you will find modifying this boat for your intended usage may well cost much more than you think. When we went looking for boats (all the same model because we knew what boat we wanted, different years) we made up a spreadsheet of what "needed" to be done and added that to the price. One boat looked OK at a lower price, but it would have cost at least half again as much to make it work for us. No brainer... Have you sailed it? We haven't, but you're closer, and that's probably the ONLY way you'll find to determine if the cautions expressed here have any validity. In answering this, we don't, for one of the first times in memory, need to know what kind of boat it is. Good luck, you might need it.
also generally means lower resale value. The doubts you express about the rigging are warranted and have been answered. The points made about the rest of the boat, even if unasked, are also valid, given the fact that the boat is a whole "system." Your description of the boat as a system appears axially opposed to your sailing goals. (Ha, ha, another engineer
) Really, if you wanted a minivan would you buy a Porsche? The difficulty you will find modifying this boat for your intended usage may well cost much more than you think. When we went looking for boats (all the same model because we knew what boat we wanted, different years) we made up a spreadsheet of what "needed" to be done and added that to the price. One boat looked OK at a lower price, but it would have cost at least half again as much to make it work for us. No brainer... Have you sailed it? We haven't, but you're closer, and that's probably the ONLY way you'll find to determine if the cautions expressed here have any validity. In answering this, we don't, for one of the first times in memory, need to know what kind of boat it is. Good luck, you might need it.- Status