Hybrid Propulsion

[John Howitt]

mpg

averaging out on monthly kms vs cost, guess this was a cheap one. Thanks for keeping me honest Ross.The Kia was supposedly arond 20 to 25 mpg.

 

[John Howitt]

batteries

the batteries are around $3000.00I did ask.The local dealer said that they have replaced one set since 2001.

 

[Jim]

The batteries do cost $3000 plus labor

Not sure how much labor is involved but they do cost $3000.. I would think the labor is high. Toyota says some have last 250,000 miles but they are only warrented 100,000. I like the VW TDI much better than Hybrids. The new TDI Jetta get 50 MPH highway and city and the battery cost 80 bucks and there is only one power plant to take care off.From Toyota Q: How long do the high-voltage batteries last?GS: We designed them to last for the life of the vehicle. We're aware of owners who have racked up a quarter-million miles without replacing the batteries.Q: What would it cost to replace a complete battery pack?GS: Less than $3000, plus labor.Q: How long is the warranty?GS: The high-voltage batteries are warranted for eight years or 100,000 miles, and under California regulations the battery warranty extends to 10 years or 150,000 miles. Q: How about the battery in a hybrid Toyota Certified Used Vehicle? Does the certification extend the warranty?GS: No, the warranty remains at 100,000 or 150,000 miles from first use. Q: Does Toyota offer any kind of extended warranty that covers hybrid batteries?GS: No.

 

[John Howitt]

warranty

I think that 180,000 km was the most you could get on the Honda. But the Warranty is transferable to the new owner which is nice.This car will be for sale in three years, at about 115000km so it would be a concern to the person buying it.The company my wife works for say's a new vehicle every three years, no exceptions.

 

[Eddie7045]

Buck, it's just not conducive to

appreciable savings in a boat. Automobiles get an advantage in not wasting energy during decelleration and there is a greater economy to be realized there. Even at that, hybrids are only an interim solution to transition to alternate types of propulsion and electric power.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Batteries vs co-generation

Unless you are going to go the "harbor engine" route, the idea of storing enough energy in batteries to be useful for propulsion is crazy talk. You have to co-generate if you are going to motor any length of time at all. A displacement boat is a constant speed high load type of application. A lightweight auto is a variable load that is mostly light at highway speeds. Two completely different designers are required. All the advantages are based on the improved weight and balance, better use of space and the ability to use an all electric boat. I have not seen any data that suggests that the hybrid diesel-electric boat is more efficient just more convenient.Why don't supertankers use diesel-electric for their motive power?

 

[Buck2796]

Well Bill,

For one thing, supertankers don't have sails.Eddie .. I understand. But, what about all the energy gain from the spinning prop during times when the sails, alone, are pushing the boat at, or near, hull speed?In the Bahamas and the Caribbean, with fairly constant 20-25kt trade winds, how much power would be generated during one days sailing under conditions just mentioned?

 

[Ross]

Buck towline generators are available. You can go through the math

to determine the power that can be extracted by a propellor. Of course pitch and diameter must be balanced for the most torque and the least drag. I know that my propellor will push the boat at about 5.5 knots but the slip ratio is 2.4:1 as I go more slowly the slip ratio declines but never reaches zero. So you can take my numbers of a 13x13 three blade prop at 5.5 knots and the stated slip ratio and figure the power you could extract by towing that prop to turn a generator. At full speed my shaft turns 1100 RPM.

 

[Buck2796]

Thank You, Ross,

but the question was posed more rhetorically, ala Bill Roosa's reply (#19).Bill, I don't necessarily suggest that diesel-electric is more efficient (although apparently the railroads think so), rather when sails are providing the entire motive power, the indirect electric shaft power generation thru a hybrid system could/may be significient enough to supply most of the boat's power needs (as was the point of your "19" reply), as well as possibly charge up the LiHydride batteries for motive power.

 

[GuyT]

Different design problem for railroads

The main reason that railroads use the electric propulsion is control.The requirement of starting several thousand tons with no traction dictates verrrrrrry... precise control of torque and speed.Its not more efficient - just better for the application.

 

[Brian M H23]

hmm

This may be a silly idea..what do you guys think of a shaft powered generator, with some sort of novel design that only generates power from leeway, rather than straight ahead. Perhaps a bunch of bow-thruster-esque propellors going through the keel?

 

[Ross]

Buck, The railroads use diesel-electric because electric motors

can deliver torque at zero rpm. Consider the demands on a clutch for starting a mile long freight train if they used multi-speed gearboxes and clutches. Steam engines and electric motors are the only ones that can exert torque while stalled. The railroads don't make any effort to recapture the braking energy it is dissipated as heat.

 

[Ross]

Brian M H 23 , Hopefully you don't have much leeway.

One horse power is equal to 33000 foot pounds of work per minute. So if your boat moved to the lee at 330 feet per minute you would need to extract all of the energy from 1000 pounds of water flowing past the keel based propellers. If the hole for the propeller was 12 inches in diameter you could conceivably push 259 cubic feet of water through the hole with no resistance. But in order to extract energy from this flow of water there must be a propeller in the hole. 260 cubic feet of water weighs about 17000 pounds. Allowing this water to leak through the keel will increase your leeway still further. Since at 6 knots you are only going forward at 600 feet per minute the leeway would be unacceptable.

 

[Jim]

Ross, is right,

how did you know that!

 

[Jim]

If you have a sailboat with an engine

you already have a Hybrid Propulsion system.

 

[John Howitt]

electric boat

A work aquantance of mine just bought a Ranger 30?The PO pulled out the diesel engine and put in an electric engine of some kindI have got to find out how this thing works ,(or doesn't) The new owner installed and used an outboard to move the boat.When I asked him how he would keep the batteries charged, he told me shore power. he also said that it was 48 volts.I believe he want to replace it soon.He thinks the PO paid about $6000 to have it installed.The big question I suppose is why?

 

[TT23844]

Hybrid marine power

Buck - There's an article in the June issue of 'Sail' magazine that speaks to your question and the author, one Nigel Calder, will undoubtedly be publishing more stuff as his experience with his new (partial hybrid) boat develops.IMHO, there is a lot of hype associated with hybrid cars at present, but the technology will undoubtedly improve and costs drop in the future.For urban & suburban use, a hybrid may be a great choice for the original owner as the car will be covered by warranty and dealer serviced etc. But used car sales outnumber new car sales by nearly 2:1 and I pity the poor owner that has to rely on their friendly local mechanic to fix or maintain the considerably more complicated hybrid.Diesel-electric systems have been around in commercial/industrial applications for a long time and are well proven, but are only cost-effective in certain applications and where there is enough money on the table to warrant them. And diesel-electric and hybrid ain't the same animal.Since the fuel consumption & operating cost for auxilliary power in a sailboat is so small (assuming the boat is primarily used under sail power) why incur the additional cost, complexity and potential maintenance problems that hybrid power would make unavoidable ? Given the number of posts I've read here over the past few years, many boat owners are hard pressed to understand & maintain or get competent "professional" help to deal with the relatively simple little diesel/gas engines they have aboard at present. Think of the nightmare that would exist if we were to all leap willy-nilly into hybrids, either afloat or ashore.