fueled up today at Coyote Point...
...where 35 gallons of diesel cost $170. Bring on the hybrids.
...where 35 gallons of diesel cost $170. Bring on the hybrids.
Hybrid Propulsion
- Thread starter Buck2796
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Interesting comment Ross
A harbor engine. I ask myself why would I need an engine to reach hull speed? The only scenario that I can see is a strong current and no wind in a narrow channel and I HAVE to do the passage NOW. Also when I need to "get there" by xxx. I suppose I could always wait for wind and tide as our forefathers did. What a concept a sailboat with a small non-hull speed motor. I guess I've been more indoctrinated by the industry more than I thought. That would require me to actually know how to beat off a lee shore etc and plan my passages so as to not hit the rough spots. It would not work for the weekend sailor who has to get home on Sunday for Monday work or get back tonight for work tomorrow. Seems that work thing is keeping all of us from realizing the advantages of hybrid systems. I say we call our congressmen and have them pass a law making work illegal!!!
A harbor engine. I ask myself why would I need an engine to reach hull speed? The only scenario that I can see is a strong current and no wind in a narrow channel and I HAVE to do the passage NOW. Also when I need to "get there" by xxx. I suppose I could always wait for wind and tide as our forefathers did. What a concept a sailboat with a small non-hull speed motor. I guess I've been more indoctrinated by the industry more than I thought. That would require me to actually know how to beat off a lee shore etc and plan my passages so as to not hit the rough spots. It would not work for the weekend sailor who has to get home on Sunday for Monday work or get back tonight for work tomorrow. Seems that work thing is keeping all of us from realizing the advantages of hybrid systems. I say we call our congressmen and have them pass a law making work illegal!!!
Bill, With tongue firmly in cheek I'll bet you could motor-
sail off a lee shore if congress would pass and fund a bill granting all sailboat owners 50 dollars per hour for underway at sea time. Just think how much we could save in civil servises expense! Seriously how often do we need to plan better and motor more slowly?
sail off a lee shore if congress would pass and fund a bill granting all sailboat owners 50 dollars per hour for underway at sea time. Just think how much we could save in civil servises expense! Seriously how often do we need to plan better and motor more slowly?
fueling up
Newly anonymous reports paying $170 to fill up on diesel. The price of diesel at the fuel dock nearest me (in Oakland, CA) is about $1.00 per gallon more than the price of diesel at the gas station. And this is with the state highway tax included at the gas station. Time to get out the fuel cans, no?
Newly anonymous reports paying $170 to fill up on diesel. The price of diesel at the fuel dock nearest me (in Oakland, CA) is about $1.00 per gallon more than the price of diesel at the gas station. And this is with the state highway tax included at the gas station. Time to get out the fuel cans, no?
That's crazy talk Ross!
Getting paid to sail?!? But it is not crazy enough to pass congress. But it is a good start and I think it has possibilities. Now all we need is to find a lobbyist who sails and convince him (or bribe him with a kickback, free pump-outs for life...) it is in his best interests.
Getting paid to sail?!? But it is not crazy enough to pass congress. But it is a good start and I think it has possibilities. Now all we need is to find a lobbyist who sails and convince him (or bribe him with a kickback, free pump-outs for life...) it is in his best interests.
Crazy? Good idea!
Heck, farmers get paid not to grow stuff so why not get paid not to use fuel? Ross - great idea! I like it. That's called thinking-out-of-the-box! *5
Heck, farmers get paid not to grow stuff so why not get paid not to use fuel? Ross - great idea! I like it. That's called thinking-out-of-the-box! *5
Old is New Again
Wow, Ross: a motor that is only intended to add a ittle boost now and then, to motor in and out, to help fight a foul tide, or for emergencies. You could call it a, a… well, how about "auxilliary engine"? Rely on seamanship? Whatever are you drinking, my good man? ***** ***** ***** I do think we will see this idea gain acceptance according to the classic pattern: first those risk-takers/visionaries/non-conformists who are drawn to the avant-garde and can afford to pay to have it replaced if the concept is horrendously faulty; then the more conservative/economically constrained, who will wait until something is tried and true. The manufacturers will be last, and wait for true demand (they're running businesses, not think tanks). The effeciences look to be instantly realizeable without close attention/monitoring. The other advangates (weight distribution, space requirements, getting explosive propane off the boat in favor of electric cookers) are obvious after only a moment's reflection. An earlier poster used the term "win-win," Think of the troublesome things one could do without. Transmissions and alternators come to mind immediately. The maintenance on a generator has to be less than on a marine diesel. It has to be quieter/more easily sound-proofed. "I'd have to add an inverter to run certain equipment." That's actually a good solution. The generator switches on to re-charge the house bank 2 minutes sooner. Big deal. The espressed concern about completely marinized systems is well-taken. We just need those brave beta-testers to get out there, to avoid electrocuting themselves so they can come back and give a thumbs-up.
Wow, Ross: a motor that is only intended to add a ittle boost now and then, to motor in and out, to help fight a foul tide, or for emergencies. You could call it a, a… well, how about "auxilliary engine"? Rely on seamanship? Whatever are you drinking, my good man? ***** ***** ***** I do think we will see this idea gain acceptance according to the classic pattern: first those risk-takers/visionaries/non-conformists who are drawn to the avant-garde and can afford to pay to have it replaced if the concept is horrendously faulty; then the more conservative/economically constrained, who will wait until something is tried and true. The manufacturers will be last, and wait for true demand (they're running businesses, not think tanks). The effeciences look to be instantly realizeable without close attention/monitoring. The other advangates (weight distribution, space requirements, getting explosive propane off the boat in favor of electric cookers) are obvious after only a moment's reflection. An earlier poster used the term "win-win," Think of the troublesome things one could do without. Transmissions and alternators come to mind immediately. The maintenance on a generator has to be less than on a marine diesel. It has to be quieter/more easily sound-proofed. "I'd have to add an inverter to run certain equipment." That's actually a good solution. The generator switches on to re-charge the house bank 2 minutes sooner. Big deal. The espressed concern about completely marinized systems is well-taken. We just need those brave beta-testers to get out there, to avoid electrocuting themselves so they can come back and give a thumbs-up.
Anchor down, How can the maintenance demands of an engine driven
generator be less than the demands of an engine driven alernator? The frequency of propane explosions is low enough for them to be news worthy. Conversion of propane to heat is 100 percent. Diesel is at best 40 per cent efficient, alternators are no better than 95 per cent. Converting diesel fuel to electricity for cooking is not cost effective. Kerosine is practically as good as electricity generated by diesel engines for producing light.
generator be less than the demands of an engine driven alernator? The frequency of propane explosions is low enough for them to be news worthy. Conversion of propane to heat is 100 percent. Diesel is at best 40 per cent efficient, alternators are no better than 95 per cent. Converting diesel fuel to electricity for cooking is not cost effective. Kerosine is practically as good as electricity generated by diesel engines for producing light.
Is this a step backwards?
Is this a step backwards? A gasoline Hybrid? Everyone talks about not have gasline aboard their vessel because of the danger. Now we want gasoline becase we think that we may be able to save some fuel. We burn .8 gallons per hour and typically fill up once or twice a year. The electric motors that are available for boats are not very large. In fact Bob Bitchin of Latitudes & Attitudes is having a boat built (twin screws) and they where not able to meet the power requirements for a propulsion system for his boat. Then you have the problem of have an engine that is marinized. The engine that is going to be powerful enough to run your power requirements and supply your power will probably be nearly as large as most of our engines today. I doubt that most hybrid owners will ever recoup the extra cost of their current breed of hybrid vehices once they start replacing batteries and the like.
Is this a step backwards? A gasoline Hybrid? Everyone talks about not have gasline aboard their vessel because of the danger. Now we want gasoline becase we think that we may be able to save some fuel. We burn .8 gallons per hour and typically fill up once or twice a year. The electric motors that are available for boats are not very large. In fact Bob Bitchin of Latitudes & Attitudes is having a boat built (twin screws) and they where not able to meet the power requirements for a propulsion system for his boat. Then you have the problem of have an engine that is marinized. The engine that is going to be powerful enough to run your power requirements and supply your power will probably be nearly as large as most of our engines today. I doubt that most hybrid owners will ever recoup the extra cost of their current breed of hybrid vehices once they start replacing batteries and the like.
WElll...
Ross, we respect that you are a minimalist... a sailing Thoreau. Maybe that's the smartist way to enjoy sailing, especially if you don't want to be concerned w/ the complexity and cost. To each his own. But, I was thinking more of the entire, worldwide, recreational boating industry/ community. Europeans are paying twice what we are paying for fuel. Sportfisherman and recreational powerboaters are sitting at the dock because of how high fuel cost have become. Even sailboat & trawler cruisers (as well as RV people) are being hammered. These industries employ millions of people, so this isn't a "non-problem"... even for (all but minimalist and prehaps racing) sailors. Steve,... Anchor Down (and others) arguments are (IMHO) excellent. So, essentially the question is... Are engineers from Toyota, Yanmar, etc. talking to one another about (diesel?)"Hybrid-like" (Ala, Dave, AnchorDown, etc) propulsion systems? I assume they are. Is this change on the near horizon ?... RichH (Warton Creek engineer)... am I gonna be able to buy a Hunter 49/50 CC in 3 years w/ an optional (marinized) Prius-type hybrid system... with all the advantages it makes possible ? ? ?
Ross, we respect that you are a minimalist... a sailing Thoreau. Maybe that's the smartist way to enjoy sailing, especially if you don't want to be concerned w/ the complexity and cost. To each his own. But, I was thinking more of the entire, worldwide, recreational boating industry/ community. Europeans are paying twice what we are paying for fuel. Sportfisherman and recreational powerboaters are sitting at the dock because of how high fuel cost have become. Even sailboat & trawler cruisers (as well as RV people) are being hammered. These industries employ millions of people, so this isn't a "non-problem"... even for (all but minimalist and prehaps racing) sailors. Steve,... Anchor Down (and others) arguments are (IMHO) excellent. So, essentially the question is... Are engineers from Toyota, Yanmar, etc. talking to one another about (diesel?)"Hybrid-like" (Ala, Dave, AnchorDown, etc) propulsion systems? I assume they are. Is this change on the near horizon ?... RichH (Warton Creek engineer)... am I gonna be able to buy a Hunter 49/50 CC in 3 years w/ an optional (marinized) Prius-type hybrid system... with all the advantages it makes possible ? ? ?
ross, we reduce fuel consumption by sailing with the tides, of course...
...but it doesn't always work. In order to reach Redwood City at high tide yesterday I needed to leave Sausalito by 0930h. Enjoyed a brisk sail across the slot, but the wind died just south of Alcatraz, and we had to motor until Hunter's Point. Fortunately, we rode a 1.8 knot flood during the 45 minutes the iron genny was doing her thing, and we were able to make 9 knots SOG at 2,800 RPMs, which means that I consumed about .6 gallons total during that stretch. From Hunter's Point we were able to sail all the way home, with ten minutes of motoring to pick up fuel at Coyote Pt where the tax-free diesel currently costs $4.80 per gallon. Made it home just as the ebb began to flow. Thanks to the tide we made it from Sausalito to Redwood City in just under 5 hours and used less than a gallon of diesel. A few years back I helped deliver a 100' motor yacht up the coast from San Diego. We kept her to 12 knots because that was her most efficient cruising speed. The passage consumed 1,800 gallons of diesel. At today's prices that trip would have cost $8,640 in fuel alone. Yikes.
...but it doesn't always work. In order to reach Redwood City at high tide yesterday I needed to leave Sausalito by 0930h. Enjoyed a brisk sail across the slot, but the wind died just south of Alcatraz, and we had to motor until Hunter's Point. Fortunately, we rode a 1.8 knot flood during the 45 minutes the iron genny was doing her thing, and we were able to make 9 knots SOG at 2,800 RPMs, which means that I consumed about .6 gallons total during that stretch. From Hunter's Point we were able to sail all the way home, with ten minutes of motoring to pick up fuel at Coyote Pt where the tax-free diesel currently costs $4.80 per gallon. Made it home just as the ebb began to flow. Thanks to the tide we made it from Sausalito to Redwood City in just under 5 hours and used less than a gallon of diesel. A few years back I helped deliver a 100' motor yacht up the coast from San Diego. We kept her to 12 knots because that was her most efficient cruising speed. The passage consumed 1,800 gallons of diesel. At today's prices that trip would have cost $8,640 in fuel alone. Yikes.
Hasn't anybody started to consider
that we're simply getting ripped off for fuel prices? Move to the Sails Call Lounge...
that we're simply getting ripped off for fuel prices? Move to the Sails Call Lounge...
Folks, I haven't read...
...this entire thread, however if you think folks are concerned about the price of fuel/gas here...take a trip over to some of the Bus Conversion boards! If you think we can get a little riled up here at times...well we are mere amatuers! LOL Jack
...this entire thread, however if you think folks are concerned about the price of fuel/gas here...take a trip over to some of the Bus Conversion boards! If you think we can get a little riled up here at times...well we are mere amatuers! LOL Jack
Why, and why in a sailboat
You diesel engine sips fuel and you sail most of the time. Why, would anyone build and expensive hybrid sailboat. My VW TDI get almost the same gas mileage as a Prius and I am not going to be buying $8000 worth of batteries every 5 to 10 years.
You diesel engine sips fuel and you sail most of the time. Why, would anyone build and expensive hybrid sailboat. My VW TDI get almost the same gas mileage as a Prius and I am not going to be buying $8000 worth of batteries every 5 to 10 years.
Fuel Prices
I would just like to post this for people to think about... -Fuel, specifically hydrocarbon rich "fossil fuels", is a scarce commodity. "Scarce" meaning, not something that is laying around for the taking. We need to invest lots of money to find it, drill it, refine it, ship it, etc etc. -"Energy" comes in many forms, but I a going to break it into 3 categories that encompass all energy avaliable for us to use 1. energy created now. solar, wind, tidal energy, etc. It's there, whether or not we collect it is up to us. Note that, growing a plant and processing it is energy created now 2. energy created a while ago. any chemical compounds that we can simply "dig up" and burn for energy. natural gas, diesel, oil, etc etc. 3. energy created a LONG time ago. fusion, fission. We don't have much control over how much #1 there is, simply how much of it we wish to collect, and what we do with it. As it is directly proportional to collection area, you need a lot of equipment to get a lot of energy, and that means a lot of money. Meanwhile, the #2 energy sources are already condensed by nature. There are in limited supply (with no intention to start any debate over the size of that supply) , but there is no question that once enough oil is removed, the well runs dry. (I will ignore #3, it is there for completion) A single gallon of gasoline has about 125 million joules, or about 35 kilowatt hours, of energy in it. (Your 1000 watt solar panel (VERY LARGE) needs 35 hours of 100% output to match that) You would need about 25 one lb loaves of bread, to match that ** carbohydrates are 4 kcal / gram. bread is roughly 2/3 usable carbohydrate. 450 g per lb. (2/3) * 4 * 450 = 1200 kcal (4184 joules / kcal) = 5 million joules = 1/25th of gasoline ** now, I ask you. Which is scarcer.. bread or fossil fuels. Which requires more energy to process before you buy it? Which is in limited supply? Which is more convenient to make a boat/train/generator run off of? ...which costs more? If you ask me, we are blessed that fossil fuels are only $4 a gallon. You can hardly ride your bike ten miles on $1 worth of food You car (non hybrid honda civic) can move 3 people and a 2500 lb piece of steel comfortably 10 miles on $1 worth of gas today, at $4 per gallon. and that's only burning that gas at 30% efficiency!!
I would just like to post this for people to think about... -Fuel, specifically hydrocarbon rich "fossil fuels", is a scarce commodity. "Scarce" meaning, not something that is laying around for the taking. We need to invest lots of money to find it, drill it, refine it, ship it, etc etc. -"Energy" comes in many forms, but I a going to break it into 3 categories that encompass all energy avaliable for us to use 1. energy created now. solar, wind, tidal energy, etc. It's there, whether or not we collect it is up to us. Note that, growing a plant and processing it is energy created now 2. energy created a while ago. any chemical compounds that we can simply "dig up" and burn for energy. natural gas, diesel, oil, etc etc. 3. energy created a LONG time ago. fusion, fission. We don't have much control over how much #1 there is, simply how much of it we wish to collect, and what we do with it. As it is directly proportional to collection area, you need a lot of equipment to get a lot of energy, and that means a lot of money. Meanwhile, the #2 energy sources are already condensed by nature. There are in limited supply (with no intention to start any debate over the size of that supply) , but there is no question that once enough oil is removed, the well runs dry. (I will ignore #3, it is there for completion) A single gallon of gasoline has about 125 million joules, or about 35 kilowatt hours, of energy in it. (Your 1000 watt solar panel (VERY LARGE) needs 35 hours of 100% output to match that) You would need about 25 one lb loaves of bread, to match that ** carbohydrates are 4 kcal / gram. bread is roughly 2/3 usable carbohydrate. 450 g per lb. (2/3) * 4 * 450 = 1200 kcal (4184 joules / kcal) = 5 million joules = 1/25th of gasoline ** now, I ask you. Which is scarcer.. bread or fossil fuels. Which requires more energy to process before you buy it? Which is in limited supply? Which is more convenient to make a boat/train/generator run off of? ...which costs more? If you ask me, we are blessed that fossil fuels are only $4 a gallon. You can hardly ride your bike ten miles on $1 worth of food You car (non hybrid honda civic) can move 3 people and a 2500 lb piece of steel comfortably 10 miles on $1 worth of gas today, at $4 per gallon. and that's only burning that gas at 30% efficiency!!
new thread?
My wife and I just bought a new civic hybrid, it has an 8 yr 130,000km warranty on the batteries We up graded to 180,000km it is 100% replacement not pro-rated.60 + mpg It won't be long to pay back.She was spending $1000 dollars a month for her Kia Sorento now it's about $70. With all the money we save I can buy more boat stuff.He!He!
My wife and I just bought a new civic hybrid, it has an 8 yr 130,000km warranty on the batteries We up graded to 180,000km it is 100% replacement not pro-rated.60 + mpg It won't be long to pay back.She was spending $1000 dollars a month for her Kia Sorento now it's about $70. With all the money we save I can buy more boat stuff.He!He!
Oh good grief
Hybrid batteries do not get replaced every 5-8 years and they do not cost $8k either. The Toyota hybrids have been in Japan for over a decade and batteries are going past 200k miles there with no replacement. The hybrid technology works, is proven, is cost-effective AND it is good for the environment and getting the USA less reliant on the nutcases in the Middle East and Venezuala. This thread really does belong in the Sails Call Lounge.
Hybrid batteries do not get replaced every 5-8 years and they do not cost $8k either. The Toyota hybrids have been in Japan for over a decade and batteries are going past 200k miles there with no replacement. The hybrid technology works, is proven, is cost-effective AND it is good for the environment and getting the USA less reliant on the nutcases in the Middle East and Venezuala. This thread really does belong in the Sails Call Lounge.
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