Hybrid Propulsion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Fuel cells????

No fuel???? What universe do I have to go to to not have a fuel. I suspect I either have to have some super clean diesel or hydrogen. I don't know where to get either, and hydrogen is super hard to store in sufficient quantities.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
J Page, I read your post!! With what do you supply the

fuel cells to supply this magic electricity? The last time I checked the laws of conservation of energy were still in place. "Energy can neither be created or distroyed, only changed from one state into another."
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
New world order!

The democrats (insert republican if you are a democrat) have solved this problem. You just pass a law that says you don't need to have it and it becomes true. And global warming will go away and peace will break out all over the world and we all retire at 45 and the terrorists don't hate us for being rich and the wind will always come from a beam reach and it never rains during the day and .... Boy when I grow up I want to be a democrat (republican) cause they got the sauce!
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Bill

Please keep your idiotic political stupidness to yourself. This is a sailing site. If you want to act like a jerk, there are political forums for that. Tony B
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Sorry Tony B

Just having a little physical science/political science fun. If I offinded you for not including your party I appologize. Ross is correct though, now matter how much you want to get "free energy" you can't.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
But you can steal it. ;D

First you need a long extension cord and a next door neighbor that doesn't pay attention. Then you need to be willing to get shot at for stealing fifty cents worth of electricity. Or you can set up a dog walking program and have a treadmill for the dogs to walk on and they can turn a generator. This is a good program because you get free electricity and you get paid to walk the mutts. ;)
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Still gona need a politician

to pass a law to make it legal. Would not want the animal rights folks thinking we where exploiting critters for our own selfish ends now would we.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
We could also feed the expected waste into a biogas

generator for a little methane and then sell the depleted product as fertilizer for lawns in yards where they didn't want the direct deposition of the product without the middleman being involved. I think that this is a win win concept that Phil will shunt over to the calls lounge soon.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,590
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
Why it's best in the long term

Low cost: - Electronics package to handle the whole solution - input from genset or shore, output to AC motor or batteries, AC motor direction, speed, torque, and regeneration. Hardware is about $250. We will have to pay the software developer for their work - $1,000. But this system will eliminate all other electrical power systems for charging, combining, etc, deduct $200. Cost estimate $1,050. - Marine AC motor of the right KW/HP. We would need around $1,000 for 10 HP for Lady Lillie. - More batteries and stowage I think $1,000 is high. - No installation - I'm assuming this power system is designed in. - Total is $3,050 to $4,000, or 60% of the comparable inboard diesel. Instant, easy starting. Quiet operation. A week-end with decent sailing winds would not need the genset. Motoring all day would mean that the genset would run into the evening if anchoring out, or on the mooring ball. Regeneration. On those great days when the wind is up, or we are not in a hurry, we can let the prop turn, and use the AC motor as a generator to replace house use, or motor use. Yeah, there is a little more drag, but we won't notice it when we are nearing hull speed. We will have to be able to turn it off for racing, formal or informal. No transmission. The electronics will make the motor do whatever you ask of it with your simple, forward/reverse/throttle lever. The hardware for this unit is all available today. All we are waiting for is someone to make the investment in system design, and software. I know guys who could do it, but none are so inclined (I asked before buying a like new diesel to repower.) It will probably be an automotive R&D engineer who loves to sail who will do the job. I have no idea when, because we are a small market for this technology. David Lady Lillie
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I agree it is great, but.....

10 HP is not going to cut it for most of us. And a 40+ HP electric motor is not going to run on household current (say 300+ volts) so you have additional wrinkles to iron out. I like everything I see in this setup except the constant running of the genset when I need electric power. Sure I could buy an inverter and run off the batteries but that is what I do now. So it comes down to diesel motor turning the prop or diesel-electric motor turning the prop. I'm sure that there are folks out there that could use these systems but mixing the rank and file boater and 300+ volts cabling is just asking for trouble. There are some significant advantages due to the compact nature of AC electric motors and you can put the genset anywhere so weight balance and usable room get high marks. I just don't see the economic advantage in anything other than niche markets. The KISS principle also should be addressed. By adding complexity you are inviting Mr. Murphy onto your boat. Not to mention Mr. Corrosion. Marine grade AC electric motors are not a common item in the inventory so I suspect they are made with all kinds of dissimilar metals that will, initially, cause the early adopters no end of headaches. I'll buy one when they are standard equipment on a production boat and have a warrenty.
 
H

HAL

New Wave

"Noise reduction in the DS42 has evolved into the 21st century with use of the battery-powered Solomon Technologies ST37 electric motor," Hinckley says. The STI propulsion system provides an "incredibly quiet ride while the sailboat is under power." This is a quote from promo lit. I believe the Hinckley is regenerative from the prop and has a diesel genset.This system is applicable to many sailboats. I think Lagoon may use something similar if not identical. I guess that in day sailing, boats of this design would be used as a grid plug-in. With biodiesel or low carbon grid power this is, a low to zero carbon expense ,type of boat. Apparently this quiet, low fume, low carbon, approach will have an economic future in recreational boating.
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
These systems are not

as good as they are cracked up to be or all of the boat manufacturers would be jumping on it NOW. On the brighter side, its a good start and as long as someone is working on it, it will improve. Tony B
 
Dec 24, 2003
233
- - Va. Beach, Va
HAL GETS AN A+

Finally, at least , someone ACTUALLY answered the question as posed. I didn't ask .. How do you FEEL about hybrid boat propulsion, or, what do you THINK about hybrid boat propulsion... I asked: "Anyone heard talk that any of the big boat manufacturers are trying/planning to use a Prius(or other)type hybrid propulsion system in production boats anytime soon??" Thanks Hal ... you deserve a beer ! ! Unfortunately the DS42 isn't a cruising boat, it's a super expensive day sailor w/ innovative technology. But, it IS a start. Now, if Bill and Dave would get up w/ Hunter and put all this together in a nice 45+ CC, welllll.....
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Buck ,I am pleased that you finally found an answer you

liked. However, you were first to express opinion concerning the desirability of such a system. Most of us were able to site reasons why you may not have heard much hype about these systems. I think that there will always be someone with money available to venture into trying and promoting new methods for solving a non-existing problem. Mr. Edison produced an electric automobile some 90 years ago and the Stanley folks had success with steam. But convenience and price always win these contests.
 
Dec 24, 2003
233
- - Va. Beach, Va
I Agree Ross,

and Mr. Ford produced a car (powered by an engine) whose fuel cost has (of late) become very much an existing problem. Convenience and price even now may favor electric propulsion, and even more so when the cost of a barrel of oil goes ever higher. Furthermore, the additional advantages of (hybrid)electric propulsion that David and Bill's discussions suggest would be very desirable for long range cruisers (as well as Trawler sailors and powerboaters), and could further help "win the contest". These changes are already comming (Hinkley's day sailor is a portend of the future). Whether (and how quickly) we can afford them and whether we live long enough to enjoy them remains to be seen.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Buck, When I chose the engine for my boat I

worked on the premise that it would be a harbor engine. The 10 hp diesel will give me a top speed of about 5.5 knots and a cruise of 4-4.5. Since I am content to sail in light winds at 3-5 knots I am equally content to motor at that speed. At 4 knots I am using about 4 horse power. That much power in electric would be 250 amps on a 12 volt system. That would deplete my two group 31 batteries in one hour. Since I don't have commercial grid power at the dock I would have to replenish with the engine. When the worlds' shipping companies made the change from sail to steam they had to establish coaling stations all over the globe. The exploration of the world couldn't have taken place without sails.
 
Mar 21, 2004
2,175
Hunter 356 Cobb Island, MD
DIY Issue#2 2008

Just got my copy yesterday and the have article on "Diesel Goes Electric". It discusses the current designs and setups. Still reading it.....
 
Dec 24, 2003
233
- - Va. Beach, Va
OK, Ross, Consider ...

... in the your boat of tomorrow, your small 4hp electric motor would be driven by a small, inexpensive, quiet (Honda like?) generator which would power the boat, charge your batteries as needed, ... run a toster oven, microwave, &/or coffee maker, etc, and make your life aboard much nicer. Had the steam engine been invented 250 years , I suspect steam powered Magellans would have found wood to power their steam engines (just as the railroads did). And, since they could have traveled upwind w/o problems, world exploration would have proceeded much quicker. So,the world of today would long since have gone thru the petroleum era, and, by now, would be using electric / hydrogen energy sources. ;)
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Point made and taken . However the direct combustion of propane

for cooking is most efficient. With steam driven vessels of exploration the greatest concern a ship's captain would have would be his fuel supply. As it was, his primary concern was for water and fresh fruit to maintain the health of the crew.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.