I am new to sail boat, I am looking to purchase a Hunter 320 as my first boat. I am just wondering how much discount should I ask for from my boat dealer, and what is their mark up on new boats, Thank you.
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What equipment
I would be more concerned that all the equipment normal for your cruising area be included and that you are satisfied with the boat. Although the base cost can be important it's more important to outfit the boat so it can be used, i.e. heater , Air conditioning, refrigeration ,inverter, genaker, batteries, dinghy, what ever is needed to make your time aboard a pleasure. Once you have made a list of wants and needs then get a price compare it to what it would cost to buy all those seperatly and then see what kind of a "deal" you get
I would be more concerned that all the equipment normal for your cruising area be included and that you are satisfied with the boat. Although the base cost can be important it's more important to outfit the boat so it can be used, i.e. heater , Air conditioning, refrigeration ,inverter, genaker, batteries, dinghy, what ever is needed to make your time aboard a pleasure. Once you have made a list of wants and needs then get a price compare it to what it would cost to buy all those seperatly and then see what kind of a "deal" you get
There's no rule of thumb
Your negotiating power with the dealer is based on a number of factors, all of which are situational dealer to dealer. For example, a new boat that has been sitting at the dealer's dock for a year might be had at a lower price than one you are ordering from the factory. Or maybe not. With Hunter and many other builders holding months of backlogged orders, I would guess your negotiating leverage would be relatively low at this time. Your discount will probably run concurrent with the dealer's desparation to sell... and most dealers are having a banner year.
Your negotiating power with the dealer is based on a number of factors, all of which are situational dealer to dealer. For example, a new boat that has been sitting at the dealer's dock for a year might be had at a lower price than one you are ordering from the factory. Or maybe not. With Hunter and many other builders holding months of backlogged orders, I would guess your negotiating leverage would be relatively low at this time. Your discount will probably run concurrent with the dealer's desparation to sell... and most dealers are having a banner year.
Price
For a nicely equipped 320 your looking at 95-100k compared to a similarly equipped catalina 310 at 110-115k. Seems high but thats what they are getting today as there is little negotiability now due to supply/demand factors. Its a great time to sell a boat!!!
For a nicely equipped 320 your looking at 95-100k compared to a similarly equipped catalina 310 at 110-115k. Seems high but thats what they are getting today as there is little negotiability now due to supply/demand factors. Its a great time to sell a boat!!!
Just bought one
I just bought n excessively equipped 320 for about $90,000 and that involved basically no discounts. In fact, I way overpaid on some add ons like chartplotter, etc. Before you start adding equipment from the dealer, make sure he sees the West Marine catalog in your hand and make him match their prices. He'll argue that installation is expensive but he's already making most of his dough on the boat.
I just bought n excessively equipped 320 for about $90,000 and that involved basically no discounts. In fact, I way overpaid on some add ons like chartplotter, etc. Before you start adding equipment from the dealer, make sure he sees the West Marine catalog in your hand and make him match their prices. He'll argue that installation is expensive but he's already making most of his dough on the boat.
Breakdown
Here is the 320 deal that i am considering... Factory features: Refrig AC/Heat Roller Furling Mast Arch Traveller Autohelm 4000 AutoPilot Autohelm Wind Point and Speed Epoxy Barrier Coat Bottom Paint Stereo/CD system Factory boat price $95,900 Dealer options: Bimini $1,500 Total $97,400* * Includes commissioning but not transporation from dealer to home port
Here is the 320 deal that i am considering... Factory features: Refrig AC/Heat Roller Furling Mast Arch Traveller Autohelm 4000 AutoPilot Autohelm Wind Point and Speed Epoxy Barrier Coat Bottom Paint Stereo/CD system Factory boat price $95,900 Dealer options: Bimini $1,500 Total $97,400* * Includes commissioning but not transporation from dealer to home port
Depreciation, not price
While this is obvious, the real cost of the boat is not the price, but the depreciation... For what its worth, I just boaught a repossessed 1996 model for 70% of the market price as provided by Boart US and other price trackers. The boat cleaned up like new and I got everything in "new condition" for under $800 (and I'm both picky and not a do-it-your-selfer ... I've got a business to run) Boats depreciate a lot in the first 7 years... I'm hoping I will not see any depreciation on mine... and that was my goal... not the price. Buy it right my friend, you have all the control when buying and very little when selling (the market is what it is).....
While this is obvious, the real cost of the boat is not the price, but the depreciation... For what its worth, I just boaught a repossessed 1996 model for 70% of the market price as provided by Boart US and other price trackers. The boat cleaned up like new and I got everything in "new condition" for under $800 (and I'm both picky and not a do-it-your-selfer ... I've got a business to run) Boats depreciate a lot in the first 7 years... I'm hoping I will not see any depreciation on mine... and that was my goal... not the price. Buy it right my friend, you have all the control when buying and very little when selling (the market is what it is).....
The REAL price is opportunity cost + depreciation
If you buy a boat for $200K in 1995, and sell it for $200K in 2000, did you get it for free? Not by a long shot. That $200K, put in the bank, would have earned 6% or more. Over five years, your opportunity cost was at least 34% of the money tied up in your boat: $68K. This cost would have been more apparent, and perhaps slightly greater, had you borrowed the money. It IS a real cost, though, even if you pay cash. You have that much less money five years down the road, for having bought a boat. Depreciation and operating costs come on top of this. For a new boat, opportunity cost may be the largest single cost. And the most often forgotten. Sales people will play all kinds of tricks to convince you that it is cheaper to buy new than used, by ignoring opportunity cost. When you come across such a salesperson, run away fast.
If you buy a boat for $200K in 1995, and sell it for $200K in 2000, did you get it for free? Not by a long shot. That $200K, put in the bank, would have earned 6% or more. Over five years, your opportunity cost was at least 34% of the money tied up in your boat: $68K. This cost would have been more apparent, and perhaps slightly greater, had you borrowed the money. It IS a real cost, though, even if you pay cash. You have that much less money five years down the road, for having bought a boat. Depreciation and operating costs come on top of this. For a new boat, opportunity cost may be the largest single cost. And the most often forgotten. Sales people will play all kinds of tricks to convince you that it is cheaper to buy new than used, by ignoring opportunity cost. When you come across such a salesperson, run away fast.
$68,000 is too much
The last two gentlemen are absolutely correct, although the second gentleman may have overstated his "opportunity cost" at $68,000. It is more like $31,993.63... but the point is the same... don't get on the wrong side of the depreciation slide (boats nose dive in the early years), be careful on setting your long term sights based on the current market which is heated up and overpriced, and don't buy more boat than you can enjoy. If your a first time buyerm, also remember that many first timers sales a lot in year 1-2, try hard in years 3-4, and let the boat sit for 3-4 more years before selling. When you stop sailing.. sell. Personally, I think the first guys point is the most practical.
The last two gentlemen are absolutely correct, although the second gentleman may have overstated his "opportunity cost" at $68,000. It is more like $31,993.63... but the point is the same... don't get on the wrong side of the depreciation slide (boats nose dive in the early years), be careful on setting your long term sights based on the current market which is heated up and overpriced, and don't buy more boat than you can enjoy. If your a first time buyerm, also remember that many first timers sales a lot in year 1-2, try hard in years 3-4, and let the boat sit for 3-4 more years before selling. When you stop sailing.. sell. Personally, I think the first guys point is the most practical.
Daryl - how has this response effected you
Lots of good advise... so what are you planning to do. I'm in the market, but this is making me rethink my plan.
Lots of good advise... so what are you planning to do. I'm in the market, but this is making me rethink my plan.
calculus isn't quite complete
First you have to establish an appropriate baseline. Let's begin with the assumption that we are going to own a boat and the only question is which boat we are going to own--a new one or used one? With this starting point, the relevant financial costs would include the opportunity cost of money on the difference in initial acquisition cost, differences in financing costs, differences in present values of operational and maintenance costs, differences in present values of future sales prices, differences in costs of upgrades, etc. Once this opportunity cost is calculated, you would simply decide whether the opportunity cost is less than the benefit derived from owning the new boat. HOWever, an easier rule of thumb is to just buy the boat that makes your toes curl.
First you have to establish an appropriate baseline. Let's begin with the assumption that we are going to own a boat and the only question is which boat we are going to own--a new one or used one? With this starting point, the relevant financial costs would include the opportunity cost of money on the difference in initial acquisition cost, differences in financing costs, differences in present values of operational and maintenance costs, differences in present values of future sales prices, differences in costs of upgrades, etc. Once this opportunity cost is calculated, you would simply decide whether the opportunity cost is less than the benefit derived from owning the new boat. HOWever, an easier rule of thumb is to just buy the boat that makes your toes curl.
I think you guys have missed the point!
What is wrong with you guys? Daryl is JUST trying to find out what the base price of the boat should be. If we try to figure out how much one of these things cost one Paul Allen, Bill Gates and a few others would or could afford them. I believe that Bruce Grant quoted a price of $84K for his boat. This was in TX. So if you are in the L.A. area you are probably looking at another 1500-2000 in freight. Now Bruce we want to hear from you. How much did that "baby" really cost (don't include measuring for the cushions, installing the stereo etc etc). We just want to know what the dealer charged you.
What is wrong with you guys? Daryl is JUST trying to find out what the base price of the boat should be. If we try to figure out how much one of these things cost one Paul Allen, Bill Gates and a few others would or could afford them. I believe that Bruce Grant quoted a price of $84K for his boat. This was in TX. So if you are in the L.A. area you are probably looking at another 1500-2000 in freight. Now Bruce we want to hear from you. How much did that "baby" really cost (don't include measuring for the cushions, installing the stereo etc etc). We just want to know what the dealer charged you.
Gee Mike, it's usually a gal that curls my toes ..
You're right, though, that that situation takes one out of the spirit of calculating the costs involved. I guess I should be grateful that my girlfriend is understanding about toe curling boats, etc.
You're right, though, that that situation takes one out of the spirit of calculating the costs involved. I guess I should be grateful that my girlfriend is understanding about toe curling boats, etc.
Don't know about toe curling . . .
but I think the general idea is right. I heard about a guy who sat down and calculated the per hour cost of going sailing, and promptly sold his boat. Rather than focus on what's the best investment if you sell "x" years from now, focus on the best deal on a boat (design and condition) that makes you want to sneak out of work, etc. to go sailing. Some things are beyond dollars and cents measurement. Enjoy. Jim Kolstoe
but I think the general idea is right. I heard about a guy who sat down and calculated the per hour cost of going sailing, and promptly sold his boat. Rather than focus on what's the best investment if you sell "x" years from now, focus on the best deal on a boat (design and condition) that makes you want to sneak out of work, etc. to go sailing. Some things are beyond dollars and cents measurement. Enjoy. Jim Kolstoe
The cost of sailing...
If I ever figured out the hourly cost of sailing my boat for the hours I sail in a year, I'd probably be better off renting a boat twice as big and four times newer than mine for the times I actually go sailing, but then I wouldn't have a boat to escape to just to "fix" something, have a beer (or two)and shoot the breeze with fellow boaters at the dock, etc. etc. Not everything is measured in money...
If I ever figured out the hourly cost of sailing my boat for the hours I sail in a year, I'd probably be better off renting a boat twice as big and four times newer than mine for the times I actually go sailing, but then I wouldn't have a boat to escape to just to "fix" something, have a beer (or two)and shoot the breeze with fellow boaters at the dock, etc. etc. Not everything is measured in money...
Well.......
I had an older boat (91 H28) that I loving restored and made the new owner happy. However, I looked at the next set of items that I wanted to upgrade or add-on and found that this exceeded the out of pocket cash for a down payment on the new boat. So I bought the new boat. The price quoted below is close enough for government work and feel that I got a good deal. Remember that the deal I made is not the one that your dealer may want to make with you. I traded in my old boat and worked with my dealer on what I wanted and came up with a price that we both could live with. (If you have been following the previous threads, look for the beer cost equation I posted when I came back from seeing the boat in Chicago). Long (more long than short) and short of it is: How much will you sail the boat. How much are you willing to do yourself. Do you need a bigger tax deduction. Can you afford the price of the boat Can you afford the insurance on the boat Can you afford the slip fees Does the boat have to be hauled for the winter (not here, so don't know what's involved) but if so can you afford that. Maintenance and upkeep are seperate issues from those above, a newer boat will have less upkeep than an older boat for the first few years and then you will be on a par with the older boat. There are many plusses and minusses to both arguments (old vs. new), I won't go into them all as the thread would never end. So the real bottom line (in my mind) is what do you want to do? For example: I am buying a boat for the first time, I know that the only boat for me is a Hunter, all the rest don't interest me. I will go check with my local Hunter dealer as well as other Hunter dealers to see what prices I am able to find. I will work with my Hunter dealer to build a rapport with them to insure that they want to have a long term relationship with me (they want to sell you the next boat also). I will buy a boat. Notice that I didn't say anything about new versus old. When I bought my 28, it was about half the price of a new 280. Had I bought the 280, I would still be in the 280, but with the 28 the cost of upgrades (that I wanted to make, not ones that needed to be made) pushed me into the new boat. So, now that my fingers are tired, I guess the point of it all is to research the market and determine what best fits your budget, this research is more like picking a home builder than a car dealer, you are talking about a 2nd home tax write off. A new boat can be loaded with over 20K of add-ons that you may or may not want, but this is part of making the deal. An old boat comes as is, your dealer will add items if you want them, but there is not as much room to negotiate as they don't have as much room in the boat price. So with a little research and once the dealer knows you are serious, the dickering can begin. Off of my soapbox for the day. Bruce. Neon Moon And yes, I would do it all over again!
I had an older boat (91 H28) that I loving restored and made the new owner happy. However, I looked at the next set of items that I wanted to upgrade or add-on and found that this exceeded the out of pocket cash for a down payment on the new boat. So I bought the new boat. The price quoted below is close enough for government work and feel that I got a good deal. Remember that the deal I made is not the one that your dealer may want to make with you. I traded in my old boat and worked with my dealer on what I wanted and came up with a price that we both could live with. (If you have been following the previous threads, look for the beer cost equation I posted when I came back from seeing the boat in Chicago). Long (more long than short) and short of it is: How much will you sail the boat. How much are you willing to do yourself. Do you need a bigger tax deduction. Can you afford the price of the boat Can you afford the insurance on the boat Can you afford the slip fees Does the boat have to be hauled for the winter (not here, so don't know what's involved) but if so can you afford that. Maintenance and upkeep are seperate issues from those above, a newer boat will have less upkeep than an older boat for the first few years and then you will be on a par with the older boat. There are many plusses and minusses to both arguments (old vs. new), I won't go into them all as the thread would never end. So the real bottom line (in my mind) is what do you want to do? For example: I am buying a boat for the first time, I know that the only boat for me is a Hunter, all the rest don't interest me. I will go check with my local Hunter dealer as well as other Hunter dealers to see what prices I am able to find. I will work with my Hunter dealer to build a rapport with them to insure that they want to have a long term relationship with me (they want to sell you the next boat also). I will buy a boat. Notice that I didn't say anything about new versus old. When I bought my 28, it was about half the price of a new 280. Had I bought the 280, I would still be in the 280, but with the 28 the cost of upgrades (that I wanted to make, not ones that needed to be made) pushed me into the new boat. So, now that my fingers are tired, I guess the point of it all is to research the market and determine what best fits your budget, this research is more like picking a home builder than a car dealer, you are talking about a 2nd home tax write off. A new boat can be loaded with over 20K of add-ons that you may or may not want, but this is part of making the deal. An old boat comes as is, your dealer will add items if you want them, but there is not as much room to negotiate as they don't have as much room in the boat price. So with a little research and once the dealer knows you are serious, the dickering can begin. Off of my soapbox for the day. Bruce. Neon Moon And yes, I would do it all over again!
Just back from Galveston...
Bought one today that i think had every factory option plus a bimini from Ship and Sail in Kemah, TX for about $100,000. Great looking boat in and out as well as some surprises like a large aft hatch under raising port cockpit seat. Of course, as Bruce said the boat can be had for almost 20k less without all the bells and whistles. Boats (with a few exceptions) are highly-depreciable assets so i have never been able to justify the purchase of a boat based on the economics. I view boat buying as merely an investment in pleasure and attempt to find the boat within my budget that will maximize pleasure. Hard to put a price on pleasure. Also, don't forget that boats can qualify as a second home under federal tax laws that permits an itemized deduction for mortgage interest
Bought one today that i think had every factory option plus a bimini from Ship and Sail in Kemah, TX for about $100,000. Great looking boat in and out as well as some surprises like a large aft hatch under raising port cockpit seat. Of course, as Bruce said the boat can be had for almost 20k less without all the bells and whistles. Boats (with a few exceptions) are highly-depreciable assets so i have never been able to justify the purchase of a boat based on the economics. I view boat buying as merely an investment in pleasure and attempt to find the boat within my budget that will maximize pleasure. Hard to put a price on pleasure. Also, don't forget that boats can qualify as a second home under federal tax laws that permits an itemized deduction for mortgage interest
Congrats Wally!
Yeah the emergency egress hatch is pretty cool. It adds a lot of vetilation and light to the aft berth. Plus the smaller kids like to get in there and grab the ankles of people sitting in the cockpit (when at anchor) I think that you will be thrilled with the boat, I know I am. Regards. Bruce. Neon Moon
Yeah the emergency egress hatch is pretty cool. It adds a lot of vetilation and light to the aft berth. Plus the smaller kids like to get in there and grab the ankles of people sitting in the cockpit (when at anchor) I think that you will be thrilled with the boat, I know I am. Regards. Bruce. Neon Moon
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