I am looking for a 30-35 foot boat to cruise the east coast and Bahamas with my wife. We don't want to liveaboard. We want to cruise for a year or two then go back to work. We don't plan to cross any oceans but would like to go to the Bahamas and maybe around the gulf coast into Mexic. With our budget $35,000 we can get a old blue water type boat or a newer better equipped Catalina or Hunter. I like the Catalinas better but for know real reasons. Anyone care to tell me why they bought a Catalina??? Did you consider Hunter or Beneteau??? Right now I am looking very hard at the Catalina 30. My main reasons are cost ,availability and hopefully suitability for the task. The Hunters are very simular in cost and availability to the Catalinas. Thanks Tom
- Status
I love my Catalina 30
Tom, I can't say enough about my C-30, mainly for 2 reasons: 1. It's everything I need in a boat 2. It is an OUTSTANDING value As it compares to Hunter & Benneteau I only have limited information. My boat is a 1977. My budget was around $22k. I ended up getting a boat that needed a LOT of work, but when all was said & done I got a boat within my price range with a new motor, prop, new 150 Genoa, upgraded rigging, etc. For my price range there weren't any Beneteau's available when I was looking (2 years ago), but there were some Hunters. Overall, I wasn't impressed with the quality of the older Hunters. The interiors weren't as nice, they weren't as roomy, but overall they just didn't seem as solid. Keep in mind that newer Hunters (1985+) seem to me to be much better built, but I don't trust the ones from the late 70's/early 80's. Overall, I think for a 30 footer the C-30 is an excellent choice, but if it were up to me, I'd try to get into something bigger. 30 footers are great as weekend boats or for an occasional extended cruise, but I don't think they quite have enough room for what you're considering. Things like storage space for belongings & food are sparse for 2 people on a 30 foot sailboat. If you get bad weather for a period of time & find yourself spending a few days cooped up below it can get a tad cramped. Check www.yachtworld.com for some used C-34's. That extra 4 feet will really make a difference in cabin comfort (bigger galley, head & more locker space) and the extra displacement can't hurt in a blow. Good luck. Let us know how you do. Overall, given your tight budget, I can't think of a better line of boats than the Catalinas for overall value. Allen Schweitzer s/v Drambuie Catalina 30 Hull# 632
Tom, I can't say enough about my C-30, mainly for 2 reasons: 1. It's everything I need in a boat 2. It is an OUTSTANDING value As it compares to Hunter & Benneteau I only have limited information. My boat is a 1977. My budget was around $22k. I ended up getting a boat that needed a LOT of work, but when all was said & done I got a boat within my price range with a new motor, prop, new 150 Genoa, upgraded rigging, etc. For my price range there weren't any Beneteau's available when I was looking (2 years ago), but there were some Hunters. Overall, I wasn't impressed with the quality of the older Hunters. The interiors weren't as nice, they weren't as roomy, but overall they just didn't seem as solid. Keep in mind that newer Hunters (1985+) seem to me to be much better built, but I don't trust the ones from the late 70's/early 80's. Overall, I think for a 30 footer the C-30 is an excellent choice, but if it were up to me, I'd try to get into something bigger. 30 footers are great as weekend boats or for an occasional extended cruise, but I don't think they quite have enough room for what you're considering. Things like storage space for belongings & food are sparse for 2 people on a 30 foot sailboat. If you get bad weather for a period of time & find yourself spending a few days cooped up below it can get a tad cramped. Check www.yachtworld.com for some used C-34's. That extra 4 feet will really make a difference in cabin comfort (bigger galley, head & more locker space) and the extra displacement can't hurt in a blow. Good luck. Let us know how you do. Overall, given your tight budget, I can't think of a better line of boats than the Catalinas for overall value. Allen Schweitzer s/v Drambuie Catalina 30 Hull# 632
Gee, we LIKE Catalinas
hp Given your itinerary and 30 to 35 footers, plus what Allen suggested about his C30 and four foot longer, try the link.
hp Given your itinerary and 30 to 35 footers, plus what Allen suggested about his C30 and four foot longer, try the link.
hp
Thanks for the response. I checked Yachtworld.com for a larger catalina for $35,000 and there was nothing!! We realise that $35,000 is not that much for a boat but if we put too much in a boat we can't afford to go cruising. Also after sailing with friends on their Columbia 34 we realised that my wife is small (5'1" 120#s) and can't handle a large sail. We have considered a ketch. We will be 51 when we start cruising and a larger boat will be more work and or more money. My brother insists that a boat must be at least 40'. The book "Sensible Cruising " makes a strong case for the smaller boat. The cat 30 seems to be a compromise. A smaller boat with a lot of volume. Tom
Thanks for the response. I checked Yachtworld.com for a larger catalina for $35,000 and there was nothing!! We realise that $35,000 is not that much for a boat but if we put too much in a boat we can't afford to go cruising. Also after sailing with friends on their Columbia 34 we realised that my wife is small (5'1" 120#s) and can't handle a large sail. We have considered a ketch. We will be 51 when we start cruising and a larger boat will be more work and or more money. My brother insists that a boat must be at least 40'. The book "Sensible Cruising " makes a strong case for the smaller boat. The cat 30 seems to be a compromise. A smaller boat with a lot of volume. Tom
Size& Price
Hello. I am a proud owner of a Catalina 30, my wife and me spent 7 weeks living on it this summer. I am pretty sure I would like a bit bigger to live on for a year. Like Catalina 36. I see you are not sure between a Cat30 and a boat up to 36 feet. A used Cat30 about 40 Gnd Cnd. Used 32 about 60 Gnd and a Cat 32 is about 30% bigger than a Cat 30 as the beam is wider and lasts much longer. Hunter, Catalina, Benat. are all the same the Bens are bit more pricy. If you travell very light and you are outside in warm weather Cat 30 is fine. Be pretty small for two trapped inside for days on end in the rain. Good luck with your plans to cruise, I really enjoyed our 7 week trip.....
Hello. I am a proud owner of a Catalina 30, my wife and me spent 7 weeks living on it this summer. I am pretty sure I would like a bit bigger to live on for a year. Like Catalina 36. I see you are not sure between a Cat30 and a boat up to 36 feet. A used Cat30 about 40 Gnd Cnd. Used 32 about 60 Gnd and a Cat 32 is about 30% bigger than a Cat 30 as the beam is wider and lasts much longer. Hunter, Catalina, Benat. are all the same the Bens are bit more pricy. If you travell very light and you are outside in warm weather Cat 30 is fine. Be pretty small for two trapped inside for days on end in the rain. Good luck with your plans to cruise, I really enjoyed our 7 week trip.....
Don't listen to your brother!
There is nothing about a 40 footer that makes it inherently safer than a 30 footer. Just cuz your bro couldn't see himself cruising on a anything less than 40 doesn't mean anything to you. The C30 is a very big boat for the money. It's beam makes it just about the roomiest 30 footer out there. You can find them quite reasonably priced (the off season is the buyer's market) AND they hold their resale value quite well. Best of all, you actually like that boat! That really means a lot if you're going to be living aboard, even if only for a year. For $35K you should be able to get a late 80s model that might not be totally tricked out but in good condition. You can go any number of ways: Spend $35K on one with all the bells & whistles (that $35K can buy), spend less on one that needs a little work & some upgrades, spend WAY less but never get out of the slip cuz all your time is spent working on the boat! Go small, go now. LaDonna
There is nothing about a 40 footer that makes it inherently safer than a 30 footer. Just cuz your bro couldn't see himself cruising on a anything less than 40 doesn't mean anything to you. The C30 is a very big boat for the money. It's beam makes it just about the roomiest 30 footer out there. You can find them quite reasonably priced (the off season is the buyer's market) AND they hold their resale value quite well. Best of all, you actually like that boat! That really means a lot if you're going to be living aboard, even if only for a year. For $35K you should be able to get a late 80s model that might not be totally tricked out but in good condition. You can go any number of ways: Spend $35K on one with all the bells & whistles (that $35K can buy), spend less on one that needs a little work & some upgrades, spend WAY less but never get out of the slip cuz all your time is spent working on the boat! Go small, go now. LaDonna
Don't want a project boat
hi Ladonna; I second the motion on project boats. I talked to a couple at a dock. They had a hurricane boat that they had bought real cheap. The mast was lying on the deck and duct tape covered some hatches etc. He then said that he had worked on the boat for five years!!!!!!!!!!! It looked like a wreck!!! Just the slip at $125.00/month times 60 months is $7,500!!!! I'm willing and able to do some repairs but I'd rather be sailing!!!!!!!! Considering time spent at minumum wage and materials and his hurricane boat was no bargain. Not to mention having a diesel sitting and rusting for 5 years. If you enjoy working on a boat and that is your goal "no problem". I have a friend who seems extremely happy working on his boat for the last four years. But "I'd rather go sailing". Tom
hi Ladonna; I second the motion on project boats. I talked to a couple at a dock. They had a hurricane boat that they had bought real cheap. The mast was lying on the deck and duct tape covered some hatches etc. He then said that he had worked on the boat for five years!!!!!!!!!!! It looked like a wreck!!! Just the slip at $125.00/month times 60 months is $7,500!!!! I'm willing and able to do some repairs but I'd rather be sailing!!!!!!!! Considering time spent at minumum wage and materials and his hurricane boat was no bargain. Not to mention having a diesel sitting and rusting for 5 years. If you enjoy working on a boat and that is your goal "no problem". I have a friend who seems extremely happy working on his boat for the last four years. But "I'd rather go sailing". Tom
Go For It!
Dear HP, A one to two year cruise along the eastern seaboard to Mexico and back is a lot more significant than merely "living aboard" plugged in at some dock. To answer your question, I have owned Catalina's since 1981 and been quite satisfied with their features and quality. I consider them to be "best value" for the money. Older Beneteaus are not that prevalent here on the West Coast, but from what I see, they are a little "pricey" and are usually not as well equipped. I was never impressed with Hunter's quality or the direction taken in their newer designs. I have done week long cruises on a 1976 C30 and thought it sailed well and it could accommodate five adults, albeit a little on the cramped side. C30s have been in constant production for the past 25 years and although there has been a certain amount of improvements and upgrades, the basic design has stood the test of time. Parts are readily available and many manufacturers offer various kits to upgrade the older boats to today's standards. Your brother has a valid point. Boats in 40' range have become the standard in long distance cruising due to improvements that enable couples to handle these larger vessels. Larger is definitely more comfortable, carries much more gear and has a longer cruising range. A forty footer doesn't seem so big when you are surfing down 15 foot wave fronts at 3 AM during a gale on a moonless night. Trust me, it happens, even when you are harbor hopping. A smaller boat will be a lot more active in a seaway - harder to steer and not fun at all if you are prone to motion sickness. A smaller boat will also have less storage capacity and smaller tankage, making fresh water and fuel management more important. And, as my wife likes to say, "boats shrink a couple of feet during each week of a cruise." So don't start off too small. …On the other hand, a fellow sailed a 19 foot Potter from San Francisco to Hawaii this summer (but do you really want to survive on a diet of nothing but canned ravioli for twenty days?) Is your $35k budget for the boat itself? or does that also include outfitting it for your cruise? $35k will buy a nice 1990 vintage C30 out here. I sold a completely tricked out C28 for less than that a couple of years ago. Be forewarned, you could spend an additional $5 to $15k outfitting it into cruising condition. The C30's electrical system was not designed for extended cruising and you will need to upgrade it with a smart 3 stage charger, regulator, enhanced house battery banks, etc. You probably want a solar panel for battery recharging so you don't have to run your engine every day. A boat of this vintage probably is still using it's original standing rigging. This should be inspected (and probably replaced) along with running rigging and sails. You might also want to invest in a spinnaker, pole, heavy air jib and storm trysail. You want a diesel engine. And a dodger and canvas to protect your from the tropical sun. Electronics like autopilot, chartplotter and radios might also need upgrading. And the list goes on and on. I think that most "project boats" stay tied to the dock mainly due to lack of funds. I think a properly motivated (and budgeted) skipper can bring almost any sound C30 into cruising condition in a couple of months. A lot will depend on how you view your cruising lifestyle. Some people require a lot more gear than others. Ketch's don't perform to windward nearly as well as a sloop. I would go for a C30 over a small ketch every time (but I'm a little performance oriented.) Upgrading to multiple speed winches that are a couple sizes larger will help your wife out a lot. An autopilot (or your wife at the wheel) will free you up to grind. My wife and I sail our C34 just fine together, just not as aggressively as I do when I'm out with the guys. Read any Herb Payson book for inspiration. I'm slowly preparing my boat for extended cruising. (This winter, upgraded electrical system! Next year, radar/chartplotter!) Good luck, Godspeed, and keep us posted!
Dear HP, A one to two year cruise along the eastern seaboard to Mexico and back is a lot more significant than merely "living aboard" plugged in at some dock. To answer your question, I have owned Catalina's since 1981 and been quite satisfied with their features and quality. I consider them to be "best value" for the money. Older Beneteaus are not that prevalent here on the West Coast, but from what I see, they are a little "pricey" and are usually not as well equipped. I was never impressed with Hunter's quality or the direction taken in their newer designs. I have done week long cruises on a 1976 C30 and thought it sailed well and it could accommodate five adults, albeit a little on the cramped side. C30s have been in constant production for the past 25 years and although there has been a certain amount of improvements and upgrades, the basic design has stood the test of time. Parts are readily available and many manufacturers offer various kits to upgrade the older boats to today's standards. Your brother has a valid point. Boats in 40' range have become the standard in long distance cruising due to improvements that enable couples to handle these larger vessels. Larger is definitely more comfortable, carries much more gear and has a longer cruising range. A forty footer doesn't seem so big when you are surfing down 15 foot wave fronts at 3 AM during a gale on a moonless night. Trust me, it happens, even when you are harbor hopping. A smaller boat will be a lot more active in a seaway - harder to steer and not fun at all if you are prone to motion sickness. A smaller boat will also have less storage capacity and smaller tankage, making fresh water and fuel management more important. And, as my wife likes to say, "boats shrink a couple of feet during each week of a cruise." So don't start off too small. …On the other hand, a fellow sailed a 19 foot Potter from San Francisco to Hawaii this summer (but do you really want to survive on a diet of nothing but canned ravioli for twenty days?) Is your $35k budget for the boat itself? or does that also include outfitting it for your cruise? $35k will buy a nice 1990 vintage C30 out here. I sold a completely tricked out C28 for less than that a couple of years ago. Be forewarned, you could spend an additional $5 to $15k outfitting it into cruising condition. The C30's electrical system was not designed for extended cruising and you will need to upgrade it with a smart 3 stage charger, regulator, enhanced house battery banks, etc. You probably want a solar panel for battery recharging so you don't have to run your engine every day. A boat of this vintage probably is still using it's original standing rigging. This should be inspected (and probably replaced) along with running rigging and sails. You might also want to invest in a spinnaker, pole, heavy air jib and storm trysail. You want a diesel engine. And a dodger and canvas to protect your from the tropical sun. Electronics like autopilot, chartplotter and radios might also need upgrading. And the list goes on and on. I think that most "project boats" stay tied to the dock mainly due to lack of funds. I think a properly motivated (and budgeted) skipper can bring almost any sound C30 into cruising condition in a couple of months. A lot will depend on how you view your cruising lifestyle. Some people require a lot more gear than others. Ketch's don't perform to windward nearly as well as a sloop. I would go for a C30 over a small ketch every time (but I'm a little performance oriented.) Upgrading to multiple speed winches that are a couple sizes larger will help your wife out a lot. An autopilot (or your wife at the wheel) will free you up to grind. My wife and I sail our C34 just fine together, just not as aggressively as I do when I'm out with the guys. Read any Herb Payson book for inspiration. I'm slowly preparing my boat for extended cruising. (This winter, upgraded electrical system! Next year, radar/chartplotter!) Good luck, Godspeed, and keep us posted!
Experience
We owned a 26' Macgregor for 8 years. I bought it because we were living in Tennessee and I wanted to sail in several area lakes and trips elsewhere. A book that I had read recommended the Mac or Cat 22 as great small trailerable boats. We had just sold a Helsen 22 so opted for the Mac. we had a lot of fun on that boat. A lot of people looked down their noses at it. But in light wind it was the fastest thing on the lake. It was great to gunkhole. We bought it for $8000 used it for 8 years and sold it for $6500.00....not bad. Thoreau is something of a hero to me as is Slocum. We want a simple lifestyle without the daily 40 mile commute in bumper to bumper traffic. Everyday driving to work doing 80mph in a 60mph zone being passed by people going over a hundred. Working in a drab building where I can't even see outside. If cruising is going to be so complicated and expensive that we're worried about money and fixing the boat all of the time it may not be the life we want to live. The aesthetics of quietly sailing with the perfect curve to the sail is great. Bouncing around with the rail in the water surrounded by whitecaps is even better. Experience will tell. My brief time at sea just isn't enough experience to make a rational decision. Probably the rational thing to do is to keep making the commute and the house payments until I retire, then I can sit and dream about sailing until death. Because if we have to have a large boat and a large budget we can't go. I've lost more out of my 401K in the past two years than my boat budget. Ironic that after two years of working every day that I'm poorer. Tom
We owned a 26' Macgregor for 8 years. I bought it because we were living in Tennessee and I wanted to sail in several area lakes and trips elsewhere. A book that I had read recommended the Mac or Cat 22 as great small trailerable boats. We had just sold a Helsen 22 so opted for the Mac. we had a lot of fun on that boat. A lot of people looked down their noses at it. But in light wind it was the fastest thing on the lake. It was great to gunkhole. We bought it for $8000 used it for 8 years and sold it for $6500.00....not bad. Thoreau is something of a hero to me as is Slocum. We want a simple lifestyle without the daily 40 mile commute in bumper to bumper traffic. Everyday driving to work doing 80mph in a 60mph zone being passed by people going over a hundred. Working in a drab building where I can't even see outside. If cruising is going to be so complicated and expensive that we're worried about money and fixing the boat all of the time it may not be the life we want to live. The aesthetics of quietly sailing with the perfect curve to the sail is great. Bouncing around with the rail in the water surrounded by whitecaps is even better. Experience will tell. My brief time at sea just isn't enough experience to make a rational decision. Probably the rational thing to do is to keep making the commute and the house payments until I retire, then I can sit and dream about sailing until death. Because if we have to have a large boat and a large budget we can't go. I've lost more out of my 401K in the past two years than my boat budget. Ironic that after two years of working every day that I'm poorer. Tom
Shopping around
Tom You have some serious usage & environment constraints to consider, $$ notwithstanding. The three boats you mention are fine coastal cruisers in their price range & can probably handle some limited offshore work, but weren't functionally designed for offshore service. Personally, for your environment I would want something more rugged. You might do some research to consider alternatives, perhaps considering something like a Westsail 32 -- slow perhaps, but rugged & forgiving. That was one of the boats written about in "The Perfect Storm" book -- the crew was removed at sea by the Coast Guard, and the abandoned boat later washed up on a Maryland beach, intact. There are many others rated for that offshore service. Cruise World magazine periodically publishes comparisons of "Classic Plastic" cruising boats, and many are in your price range. However, unless God & Poseiden really smile on you, plan on investing additional time & money to fix that $35K boat up to offshore shape. --Ron Yes, I speak heresy on this website, but be assured that I'm a proud & happy owner of a C320, and have done some offshore sailing in it and other boats.
Tom You have some serious usage & environment constraints to consider, $$ notwithstanding. The three boats you mention are fine coastal cruisers in their price range & can probably handle some limited offshore work, but weren't functionally designed for offshore service. Personally, for your environment I would want something more rugged. You might do some research to consider alternatives, perhaps considering something like a Westsail 32 -- slow perhaps, but rugged & forgiving. That was one of the boats written about in "The Perfect Storm" book -- the crew was removed at sea by the Coast Guard, and the abandoned boat later washed up on a Maryland beach, intact. There are many others rated for that offshore service. Cruise World magazine periodically publishes comparisons of "Classic Plastic" cruising boats, and many are in your price range. However, unless God & Poseiden really smile on you, plan on investing additional time & money to fix that $35K boat up to offshore shape. --Ron Yes, I speak heresy on this website, but be assured that I'm a proud & happy owner of a C320, and have done some offshore sailing in it and other boats.
beneteau 235
hi Ron ; Thanks for your comments. There is a man I met up at Guntersville Alabama that has a Beneteau 235 that he and his son sailed to the Bahamas. They trailered it from Alabama to near Miami and then sailed across the gulf stream. They sailed around for 6 weeks then back to Alabama. He admitted that they didn't have any bad weather. But he said that the hard part was trailering to Florida. Checking the numbers on the sail calculator the Catalina 30 is much better than a Beneteau 235!!!! I thought that I was daring in my laser a mile off the beach in 15-20 knots of wind. Then one day there was a guy out there in a 8' pram fishing!!!! He stopped dead on every wave but had a stringer of trout and seemed happy. Vigor talks about a man sailing around the world in a modified Catalina 27!!! Vigor has another book on bluewater boats. The C-30 doesn't match his specifications. But he is talking about sailing around the world or at least crossing oceans. All I'm talking about is coastal sailing with a gulf stream crossing. While in the Phillipines I was at sea in a dugout canoe in 25-30' waves after a typhoon. It was very impressive!!!! The wind had died down but the waves were there. That day a wave caught a canoe flipped it end over end and broke it in half. No one was hurt but they lost their scuba gear. As a older man I realise it was silly to go out that day. I met a man in the PIs that had sailed a wooden 16' sailboat from Guadalcanal to Luzon!!! It looked like a rowboat with a cotton sail stuck on. I admit he looked pretty rough and I don't want to live that close to the edge. He was planning to go to Japan. He had fought in the area during the second world war and was retracing his steps. I never heard if he made it. I'm just going to get a boat and see how far it will take me. Tom
hi Ron ; Thanks for your comments. There is a man I met up at Guntersville Alabama that has a Beneteau 235 that he and his son sailed to the Bahamas. They trailered it from Alabama to near Miami and then sailed across the gulf stream. They sailed around for 6 weeks then back to Alabama. He admitted that they didn't have any bad weather. But he said that the hard part was trailering to Florida. Checking the numbers on the sail calculator the Catalina 30 is much better than a Beneteau 235!!!! I thought that I was daring in my laser a mile off the beach in 15-20 knots of wind. Then one day there was a guy out there in a 8' pram fishing!!!! He stopped dead on every wave but had a stringer of trout and seemed happy. Vigor talks about a man sailing around the world in a modified Catalina 27!!! Vigor has another book on bluewater boats. The C-30 doesn't match his specifications. But he is talking about sailing around the world or at least crossing oceans. All I'm talking about is coastal sailing with a gulf stream crossing. While in the Phillipines I was at sea in a dugout canoe in 25-30' waves after a typhoon. It was very impressive!!!! The wind had died down but the waves were there. That day a wave caught a canoe flipped it end over end and broke it in half. No one was hurt but they lost their scuba gear. As a older man I realise it was silly to go out that day. I met a man in the PIs that had sailed a wooden 16' sailboat from Guadalcanal to Luzon!!! It looked like a rowboat with a cotton sail stuck on. I admit he looked pretty rough and I don't want to live that close to the edge. He was planning to go to Japan. He had fought in the area during the second world war and was retracing his steps. I never heard if he made it. I'm just going to get a boat and see how far it will take me. Tom
Back to Basics
Tom On any long (20+ hour) passage, you'll need to have a rotating watch schedule. Consider short-handed vs full crew operation off shore. Short-handed to me is two or three, full crew is four to six. compare things like provisions & personal gear storage space, hand-holds (above & below deck), fuel, water, propane, and waste tankage, berths, etc. in the context of using them while moving through a lumpy seaway (e.g., Gulf Stream w/ Northerly winds). Some examples: Can you go from the cockpit to the forward (or stern) cabin with at least one hand on a solid hand-hold? Can you get from the cockpit to the bow pulpit keeping one hand on the boat (and NOT using the life lines)? Can you take a cat-nap on a saloon settee without rolling off? Even simple stuff like being able to brace yourself while sitting in the cockpit (distance between port & starboard seats vs leg length). Can you handle all sails and trim from the cockpit? Can off-watch crew get around below with diminished (red) lighting at night? Is there locker storage for wet foulies? Consider all the crew. How much fuel would be needed to transit from Bahamas to a Florida port under power alone in rough seas & strong headwind? (Fuel consumption rises dramatically under these conditions.) Does the boat have sufficient tankage with a reserve? Can you change fuel filters at sea under those conditions (might want to inspect the inside of the fuel tank as a part of purchase checklist -- could be a lot of nasty sludge in older tropical boats). ..... Consider doing some failure-mode analyses: Imagine yourself off shore, under sail or power, in rough weather & seas and then systematically think through all the stuff that could break or go wrong, however remote the chance. Look for backups/redundant systems. Look for "failure chains" (i.e., the domino effect). (Example: Off shore. Rough seas with short wave period. Periodic breaking waves on the bow as boat slams through crests and down into the troughs. What would happen if the anchor restraint(s) let go? -- Examine the ways the anchor is secured on the bow roller. -- Examine redundant ways to secure anchor, rode, or both. -- Ensure anchor locker hatch can be locked down. Examine anchor locker drain system. -- How would I have to maneuver boat & direct crew to recover? This type of "what-if" thinking not only can help you intelligently select the best boat for your needs, but also mentally sets you up for off-shore sailing. (One reason I generally don't get much sleep on these passages is that senses are always sampling the boat sounds & movements, and my mind continually is working these "what ifs." Sleep like a baby once at anchor or tied up at a marina.) Good luck --Ron
Tom On any long (20+ hour) passage, you'll need to have a rotating watch schedule. Consider short-handed vs full crew operation off shore. Short-handed to me is two or three, full crew is four to six. compare things like provisions & personal gear storage space, hand-holds (above & below deck), fuel, water, propane, and waste tankage, berths, etc. in the context of using them while moving through a lumpy seaway (e.g., Gulf Stream w/ Northerly winds). Some examples: Can you go from the cockpit to the forward (or stern) cabin with at least one hand on a solid hand-hold? Can you get from the cockpit to the bow pulpit keeping one hand on the boat (and NOT using the life lines)? Can you take a cat-nap on a saloon settee without rolling off? Even simple stuff like being able to brace yourself while sitting in the cockpit (distance between port & starboard seats vs leg length). Can you handle all sails and trim from the cockpit? Can off-watch crew get around below with diminished (red) lighting at night? Is there locker storage for wet foulies? Consider all the crew. How much fuel would be needed to transit from Bahamas to a Florida port under power alone in rough seas & strong headwind? (Fuel consumption rises dramatically under these conditions.) Does the boat have sufficient tankage with a reserve? Can you change fuel filters at sea under those conditions (might want to inspect the inside of the fuel tank as a part of purchase checklist -- could be a lot of nasty sludge in older tropical boats). ..... Consider doing some failure-mode analyses: Imagine yourself off shore, under sail or power, in rough weather & seas and then systematically think through all the stuff that could break or go wrong, however remote the chance. Look for backups/redundant systems. Look for "failure chains" (i.e., the domino effect). (Example: Off shore. Rough seas with short wave period. Periodic breaking waves on the bow as boat slams through crests and down into the troughs. What would happen if the anchor restraint(s) let go? -- Examine the ways the anchor is secured on the bow roller. -- Examine redundant ways to secure anchor, rode, or both. -- Ensure anchor locker hatch can be locked down. Examine anchor locker drain system. -- How would I have to maneuver boat & direct crew to recover? This type of "what-if" thinking not only can help you intelligently select the best boat for your needs, but also mentally sets you up for off-shore sailing. (One reason I generally don't get much sleep on these passages is that senses are always sampling the boat sounds & movements, and my mind continually is working these "what ifs." Sleep like a baby once at anchor or tied up at a marina.) Good luck --Ron
Ron you are right
hi Ron; You are right about offshore passages. But the big picture from my perspective is that most of the time we will be coastal sailing. Leave Andrews bay in the morning. Be anchored in Pensacola before dark. Leave Charleston in the morning be in Georgetown before dark. Even going to the Bahamas leave at midnight be in Bimini the next morning or early afternoon. With my wife as the only other crew member we won't be doing many(any) long passages. Unfortunately many of the things that make a boat comfortable at anchor make it unseaworthy. A large cockpit, many have written that they "live" in their cockpit while at anchor. A open roomy cabin. As you alluded to is dangerous in a pitching rocking boat in a seaway. Even actively cruising most people spend more time at anchor than at sea. In a Catalina 30 with a less than great forcast I'll just go for a swim and have a beer. Or move a few miles to another anchorage that has a better view. I would prefer to have a Crealock 37 but even then I think the area between my ears would be the most important safety factor. We are still looking and hopefully we will find the best boat for the money. It's hard to get credible advice. I've known some sailers who wouldn't go out on the lake because it was gusting to 20. I am amazed at the boats that just sit at the marina without being used. In the summer it's too hot and not enough wind. In the spring and fall it's too windy in the winter too cold. We have had great times when we had to chip ice off of the boat For me summer is my least favorite time to sail. Too many bugs and jet skis. Too little wind. As far as what can go wrong you have to keep it in perspective. Driving down the interstate do you worry if you are going to have a blowout, did something fall off a truck, Is there oil on the road. Is that guy coming at me at 65mph two feet away "DRUNK" . Will that car make a left hand turn as I approach. It goes on forever!!!! You have to be reasonable. A woman at work who smokes two packs a day told me she was worried about artifical sweeteners. There the difference in risk is so huge but she was worried about the wrong thing. If I watch the weather and keep my passages to two or three days the chances of getting hit by a survival storm are small. Probably more likely to be ran down by a ship or fall overboard while peeing!!! Tom
hi Ron; You are right about offshore passages. But the big picture from my perspective is that most of the time we will be coastal sailing. Leave Andrews bay in the morning. Be anchored in Pensacola before dark. Leave Charleston in the morning be in Georgetown before dark. Even going to the Bahamas leave at midnight be in Bimini the next morning or early afternoon. With my wife as the only other crew member we won't be doing many(any) long passages. Unfortunately many of the things that make a boat comfortable at anchor make it unseaworthy. A large cockpit, many have written that they "live" in their cockpit while at anchor. A open roomy cabin. As you alluded to is dangerous in a pitching rocking boat in a seaway. Even actively cruising most people spend more time at anchor than at sea. In a Catalina 30 with a less than great forcast I'll just go for a swim and have a beer. Or move a few miles to another anchorage that has a better view. I would prefer to have a Crealock 37 but even then I think the area between my ears would be the most important safety factor. We are still looking and hopefully we will find the best boat for the money. It's hard to get credible advice. I've known some sailers who wouldn't go out on the lake because it was gusting to 20. I am amazed at the boats that just sit at the marina without being used. In the summer it's too hot and not enough wind. In the spring and fall it's too windy in the winter too cold. We have had great times when we had to chip ice off of the boat For me summer is my least favorite time to sail. Too many bugs and jet skis. Too little wind. As far as what can go wrong you have to keep it in perspective. Driving down the interstate do you worry if you are going to have a blowout, did something fall off a truck, Is there oil on the road. Is that guy coming at me at 65mph two feet away "DRUNK" . Will that car make a left hand turn as I approach. It goes on forever!!!! You have to be reasonable. A woman at work who smokes two packs a day told me she was worried about artifical sweeteners. There the difference in risk is so huge but she was worried about the wrong thing. If I watch the weather and keep my passages to two or three days the chances of getting hit by a survival storm are small. Probably more likely to be ran down by a ship or fall overboard while peeing!!! Tom
Decisions
Tom Well, buying a boat is about making basic decisions about your sailing style & comfort factors. I have a Catalina 320. This past Summer I took it up from Massachusetts to Maine. We did an offshore (i.e., out of sight of land, about 25 miles out at the max) leg from Marblehead to Cape Ann to Cape Elizabeth to Portland -- about 85 nmi total distance. Going up we encountered a gradual SW to W to NW wind shift and then a rapid moving front with thunderstorms arriving off Cape Elizabeth (about 10 hours before when it was forecasted). Great sailing while it lasted -- off-watch crew actually got some sleep. At 0100, in a driving rain and confused seaway, we were suddenly dropping sail & changing course to avoid the wall-to-wall lightning flashes ahead of us. Same passage, going back, saw 25+ knts winds and 4-6ft seas (with a very short wave period) dead on the nose all the way (23 hours total, dock-to-dock). We motored through the night for 19 hours before being positioned well enough past Cape Ann to set some reefed canvas and sail close-hauled the rest of the way. Ran very low on fuel due to the extra consumption brought on by our windage and the waves (that was a suprise to me!). The pounding from the waves caused loose stuff to be cast about & some systems to fail (fresh water pump and the lamp in the head fell out & broke). The point being, even those short coastal passages you can run into "offshore" conditions. If the boat you select doesn't have the basic safety, reliability, and security features, add them yourself. Sooner or later, you'll need them. Discovering the need for them at sea under those conditions is less than desireable. We had a crew of four -- doing it shorthanded with two, the Pardey's notwithstanding, well -- to risky for my blood. Sleep deprivation & fatigue are your biggest enemy. --Ron
Tom Well, buying a boat is about making basic decisions about your sailing style & comfort factors. I have a Catalina 320. This past Summer I took it up from Massachusetts to Maine. We did an offshore (i.e., out of sight of land, about 25 miles out at the max) leg from Marblehead to Cape Ann to Cape Elizabeth to Portland -- about 85 nmi total distance. Going up we encountered a gradual SW to W to NW wind shift and then a rapid moving front with thunderstorms arriving off Cape Elizabeth (about 10 hours before when it was forecasted). Great sailing while it lasted -- off-watch crew actually got some sleep. At 0100, in a driving rain and confused seaway, we were suddenly dropping sail & changing course to avoid the wall-to-wall lightning flashes ahead of us. Same passage, going back, saw 25+ knts winds and 4-6ft seas (with a very short wave period) dead on the nose all the way (23 hours total, dock-to-dock). We motored through the night for 19 hours before being positioned well enough past Cape Ann to set some reefed canvas and sail close-hauled the rest of the way. Ran very low on fuel due to the extra consumption brought on by our windage and the waves (that was a suprise to me!). The pounding from the waves caused loose stuff to be cast about & some systems to fail (fresh water pump and the lamp in the head fell out & broke). The point being, even those short coastal passages you can run into "offshore" conditions. If the boat you select doesn't have the basic safety, reliability, and security features, add them yourself. Sooner or later, you'll need them. Discovering the need for them at sea under those conditions is less than desireable. We had a crew of four -- doing it shorthanded with two, the Pardey's notwithstanding, well -- to risky for my blood. Sleep deprivation & fatigue are your biggest enemy. --Ron
Cape dory 30
Ron, I'm listening to you. You may have talked me out of the catalina 30. I'm looking at a Cape Dory 30. For the same money a CD30 as compared to a Cat-30 is older, narrower, slower and according to sail calculator has a much better capsize screen ratio. It has better comfort at sea and a full keel with attached rudder. We may be willing to give up some comfort for seaworthiness. You don't say why you put to sea on the return trip in adverse conditions. I assume it was a had to get back situation. In our situation we won't have much of a have to get there attitude. I'm a pilot and know how you don't mess with the weather. But confess that I have flown to get there when it would have been be safer to stay on the ground. Most small plane crashes are due to pilot error which translates usually into running out of fuel or flying in (IMC) poor conditons. A saying in flying is that the superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid using his superior flying skills. The unfortunate truth is that you must develope those superior skills. In boating terms I guess a seaworthy boat will save you when your judgement fails. Tom
Ron, I'm listening to you. You may have talked me out of the catalina 30. I'm looking at a Cape Dory 30. For the same money a CD30 as compared to a Cat-30 is older, narrower, slower and according to sail calculator has a much better capsize screen ratio. It has better comfort at sea and a full keel with attached rudder. We may be willing to give up some comfort for seaworthiness. You don't say why you put to sea on the return trip in adverse conditions. I assume it was a had to get back situation. In our situation we won't have much of a have to get there attitude. I'm a pilot and know how you don't mess with the weather. But confess that I have flown to get there when it would have been be safer to stay on the ground. Most small plane crashes are due to pilot error which translates usually into running out of fuel or flying in (IMC) poor conditons. A saying in flying is that the superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid using his superior flying skills. The unfortunate truth is that you must develope those superior skills. In boating terms I guess a seaworthy boat will save you when your judgement fails. Tom
catalina 320
hi Ron; One last note about your boat. This is from the sail calculator HTTP://image-ination.com/sailcalc.html . I ran a comparison of a cat-30 versus a Cat 320. By most measures a C320 is not as seaworthy as a C-30 which is not as seaworthy as a C-27. I was surprised that the motion comfort and capsize ratios though not greatly different were worse for the C-320. The sail calculator is a unknown quantity to me. The database is assumed to be correct but I don't know that as a fact. But with the C-320 being longer and wider without that much increase in weight it makes sense that it would be bouncier and more prone to capsize. The ideal sailboat would be part submarine. When the weather turns awful you would just submerge to 200' and wait until things calmed down. But it would be expensive!!! The bad/good thing about lake sailing where I have the most experienc is that there is always a cove or a lee shore close by. I've been known to run up close to a hill until the wind dies to jibe. Even with wall to wall whitecaps you can duck into somewhere with a half mile or so. I'm sure that when I first experience that wanting to be on shore and can't get there it will be a painful experience. I've experienced it in a small boat where I jumped off the back and let the boat drag me through the surf to avoid pitchpoleing(I've done that too). But I knew that even in the worse case I could just swim to shore. Tom
hi Ron; One last note about your boat. This is from the sail calculator HTTP://image-ination.com/sailcalc.html . I ran a comparison of a cat-30 versus a Cat 320. By most measures a C320 is not as seaworthy as a C-30 which is not as seaworthy as a C-27. I was surprised that the motion comfort and capsize ratios though not greatly different were worse for the C-320. The sail calculator is a unknown quantity to me. The database is assumed to be correct but I don't know that as a fact. But with the C-320 being longer and wider without that much increase in weight it makes sense that it would be bouncier and more prone to capsize. The ideal sailboat would be part submarine. When the weather turns awful you would just submerge to 200' and wait until things calmed down. But it would be expensive!!! The bad/good thing about lake sailing where I have the most experienc is that there is always a cove or a lee shore close by. I've been known to run up close to a hill until the wind dies to jibe. Even with wall to wall whitecaps you can duck into somewhere with a half mile or so. I'm sure that when I first experience that wanting to be on shore and can't get there it will be a painful experience. I've experienced it in a small boat where I jumped off the back and let the boat drag me through the surf to avoid pitchpoleing(I've done that too). But I knew that even in the worse case I could just swim to shore. Tom
Approximations & margin-of-error
Tom These calculated comparison parameters are largely rule-of-thumb approximations. There is a nice little book available on the design of offshore yachts (The title is similar, but I can't place it offhand) that gets into the basis for all of those comparison parameters. The C320 has an international offshore rating for (I believe) construction & hull integrity. That said, the cockpit & cabin layout & the strength & durability of the rigging, etc. are not there for extended offshore use, though they were adequate for its designed purpose -- coastal cruising & occasional short offshore passages in the more benign weather conditions. Frankly, I've found the C320 to be fairly stiff and handles well in heavier air. I've sailed in up to 33 knts of wind with the main reefed and the Genoa down to 100%. Fairly little heeling, controllable with sail trim (But I'm a "comfort sailor" and don't care for the extremes of rail-in-the-water heel angles. Besides, most boats lose a lot of rudder control under those conditions.) The trick is to properly balance the sails -- once done, you can go almost hands-off the wheel. As to that trip, on the way up the weather, being a fickle thing, decided to not wait for its forecasted arrival. So much for planning, as we were hoping to beat the front to Portland. Coming home, folks with jobs to go to pushed for an on-time arrival and the forecast said it wasn't going to get worse for about 48 hours (an accurate prediction). The boat & crew were experienced & capable of handling the forecasted conditions. So sitting it out wasn't a desireable option. We had a mid-course port-of-refuge in mind (Plan B: Portsmouth, NH) if things got too bad along the way, monitored the WX, and found a heading that handled things well enough. If the fuel ran too low, we could always raise sail -- just didn't at the start because of the work, time, & extra distances of sailing close hauled & tacking over ~60 nmi of open ocean. Motoring down the rhumb line at least gave the off-watch crew some rest (two guys actually got to sleep!). We got in more or less at our predicted arrival time. As a side note, we took a lot of water over the bow that night. The helmsman was regularly doused with spray. (Did I mention a factor to look at was how fast water on deck or in the cockpit can drain?) After getting home, we found a small fish jammed under the forward edge of dodger! Must have rode in on one of those waves! The local seagull was happy. --Ron
Tom These calculated comparison parameters are largely rule-of-thumb approximations. There is a nice little book available on the design of offshore yachts (The title is similar, but I can't place it offhand) that gets into the basis for all of those comparison parameters. The C320 has an international offshore rating for (I believe) construction & hull integrity. That said, the cockpit & cabin layout & the strength & durability of the rigging, etc. are not there for extended offshore use, though they were adequate for its designed purpose -- coastal cruising & occasional short offshore passages in the more benign weather conditions. Frankly, I've found the C320 to be fairly stiff and handles well in heavier air. I've sailed in up to 33 knts of wind with the main reefed and the Genoa down to 100%. Fairly little heeling, controllable with sail trim (But I'm a "comfort sailor" and don't care for the extremes of rail-in-the-water heel angles. Besides, most boats lose a lot of rudder control under those conditions.) The trick is to properly balance the sails -- once done, you can go almost hands-off the wheel. As to that trip, on the way up the weather, being a fickle thing, decided to not wait for its forecasted arrival. So much for planning, as we were hoping to beat the front to Portland. Coming home, folks with jobs to go to pushed for an on-time arrival and the forecast said it wasn't going to get worse for about 48 hours (an accurate prediction). The boat & crew were experienced & capable of handling the forecasted conditions. So sitting it out wasn't a desireable option. We had a mid-course port-of-refuge in mind (Plan B: Portsmouth, NH) if things got too bad along the way, monitored the WX, and found a heading that handled things well enough. If the fuel ran too low, we could always raise sail -- just didn't at the start because of the work, time, & extra distances of sailing close hauled & tacking over ~60 nmi of open ocean. Motoring down the rhumb line at least gave the off-watch crew some rest (two guys actually got to sleep!). We got in more or less at our predicted arrival time. As a side note, we took a lot of water over the bow that night. The helmsman was regularly doused with spray. (Did I mention a factor to look at was how fast water on deck or in the cockpit can drain?) After getting home, we found a small fish jammed under the forward edge of dodger! Must have rode in on one of those waves! The local seagull was happy. --Ron
- Status