The link below is to a story about a Hunter being abandoned at sea on the way to the Bahamas. Does anybody know this boat and her crew?
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Reminds me of that chainplate photo...
that was posted here a little while ago. It was also a 376 as I recall. The deck/hull/and chainplate seemed to rip apart in the photo. I wonder what the whole story on this incident was? Glad they're all safe though!
that was posted here a little while ago. It was also a 376 as I recall. The deck/hull/and chainplate seemed to rip apart in the photo. I wonder what the whole story on this incident was? Glad they're all safe though!
In our HOW directory.
Summer Heat, an H376, is in the HOW Owner's Directory. Is it in tow in the picture or did they abandon it? What an experience, hope my wife doesn't see this! Thankfully all are safe ashore.
Summer Heat, an H376, is in the HOW Owner's Directory. Is it in tow in the picture or did they abandon it? What an experience, hope my wife doesn't see this! Thankfully all are safe ashore.
376's (380's, 386's)
Disclaimer: "I Wasn't There" But..... 20 foot seas, 50 MPH winds while not a picnic, really shouldn't dismast a boat. Seems like our 376's are getting pummelled this month. Possible causes: Too much sail ? Way inexperienced crew ? Knockdown ? Improperly Rigged ? The responses on the "Biggest Waves" question routinely mentioned 20 foot seas and 50 MPH winds. Guess I'll keep my 376 coastwise for a while Jeff
Disclaimer: "I Wasn't There" But..... 20 foot seas, 50 MPH winds while not a picnic, really shouldn't dismast a boat. Seems like our 376's are getting pummelled this month. Possible causes: Too much sail ? Way inexperienced crew ? Knockdown ? Improperly Rigged ? The responses on the "Biggest Waves" question routinely mentioned 20 foot seas and 50 MPH winds. Guess I'll keep my 376 coastwise for a while Jeff
Ed...good catch
Maybe we could get the owner to give us some insight on what happened and how it happened Jeff
Maybe we could get the owner to give us some insight on what happened and how it happened Jeff
Maybe because
Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau are coasty cruiser. Practical Sailor prefers keel stepped masts for blue water cursing. As an engineer I strongly agree. I do not go further that 20 miles out with my Hunter. Don't get me wrong I love my Hunter but crew safety in number one!
Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau are coasty cruiser. Practical Sailor prefers keel stepped masts for blue water cursing. As an engineer I strongly agree. I do not go further that 20 miles out with my Hunter. Don't get me wrong I love my Hunter but crew safety in number one!
Jim, Not all of those boats are limited to coastal
Cruising. In fact I know of a few that have crossed many an ocean. It depends on which model and what year you are talking about. For instance the Cheribini Hunter is a conservative design with some over designed features. I have a C36 that, although not the ultimate blue water cruisier, wouldn't make me fearful of going on the open seas with. Its pretty conservative in design and I know someone who has cruised from Alaska to NE and Back. Most Catalina's lean a bit more conservative in design relative to the other 2 manufacturers. Yeah, my boats a bit heavier for its size and probably won't do as well in really light air, but thats what I wanted. I still am not sure what happened to this Hunter 376 to cause them to lose the mast (and the engine?!). Is this a deck-stepped boat? If it is, then losing just one stay or shroud will almost defintely mean a dismasting on a B&R rig. That is why I am not sure I'd choose that rig for extended offshore, for instance my boat is keel-stepped and more importantly a single spreader rig. Very conservative, but in the unlikely event that I did lose a stay or a shroud I have a good chance that I would be able to keep the mast intact. (with some quick actions). Plus for what its worth. The larger boats from these 3 manufacturers are supposed to be design as Class A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale- 40kts) and significant wave heights of 4 meters (13 ft)and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient. I know that all boats above 30 feet manufactured from Catalina are supposed to be built to these specs.....Does that mean I am going to sail a C310 around cape horn....no, probably not. But I would sail it to the Bahama's. And some good seamanship (and luck) can go a long way towards keepinjg a boat "intact" in ocean voyages, no matter what boat you are in. But you are correct in that a more "conservative" design will tolerate a little less skill and take care of the sailors on board better.
Cruising. In fact I know of a few that have crossed many an ocean. It depends on which model and what year you are talking about. For instance the Cheribini Hunter is a conservative design with some over designed features. I have a C36 that, although not the ultimate blue water cruisier, wouldn't make me fearful of going on the open seas with. Its pretty conservative in design and I know someone who has cruised from Alaska to NE and Back. Most Catalina's lean a bit more conservative in design relative to the other 2 manufacturers. Yeah, my boats a bit heavier for its size and probably won't do as well in really light air, but thats what I wanted. I still am not sure what happened to this Hunter 376 to cause them to lose the mast (and the engine?!). Is this a deck-stepped boat? If it is, then losing just one stay or shroud will almost defintely mean a dismasting on a B&R rig. That is why I am not sure I'd choose that rig for extended offshore, for instance my boat is keel-stepped and more importantly a single spreader rig. Very conservative, but in the unlikely event that I did lose a stay or a shroud I have a good chance that I would be able to keep the mast intact. (with some quick actions). Plus for what its worth. The larger boats from these 3 manufacturers are supposed to be design as Class A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale- 40kts) and significant wave heights of 4 meters (13 ft)and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient. I know that all boats above 30 feet manufactured from Catalina are supposed to be built to these specs.....Does that mean I am going to sail a C310 around cape horn....no, probably not. But I would sail it to the Bahama's. And some good seamanship (and luck) can go a long way towards keepinjg a boat "intact" in ocean voyages, no matter what boat you are in. But you are correct in that a more "conservative" design will tolerate a little less skill and take care of the sailors on board better.
Tom,
Regardless of the as Class A. OCEAN rating Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau describes their boats are coastal cursers, except the Hunter HC-50. Maybe there are wrong? Catalina is the more conservative boat but still has a deck stepped mast. Practical Sailor just review the 470 and the warned despite the Class A. OCEAN rating they feel it was better suited as a coastal cruiser because of the keel stepped mast. They did mention it is a great live aboard boat too. People have sailed across the pond in all kinds of small boats. I am sure that sailing and navigation skills make all the difference. For and my crew we'll stay close to shore until I can afford an Island Packet or better yet a Tartan. I think I know what happen to the engine and the mast on the Hunter 376. And yes the mast is decked stepped!
Regardless of the as Class A. OCEAN rating Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau describes their boats are coastal cursers, except the Hunter HC-50. Maybe there are wrong? Catalina is the more conservative boat but still has a deck stepped mast. Practical Sailor just review the 470 and the warned despite the Class A. OCEAN rating they feel it was better suited as a coastal cruiser because of the keel stepped mast. They did mention it is a great live aboard boat too. People have sailed across the pond in all kinds of small boats. I am sure that sailing and navigation skills make all the difference. For and my crew we'll stay close to shore until I can afford an Island Packet or better yet a Tartan. I think I know what happen to the engine and the mast on the Hunter 376. And yes the mast is decked stepped!
Many blue-water boats deck-stepped
Tayana 42s, most of the Halberg-Rassey models are deck-stepped. Nearly all of the boats that compete in the Vendee Globe and similar ocean races have deck-stepped masts. That said, I want a keel-stepped mast on my blue-water boat. And a backstay, thank you. Paul
Tayana 42s, most of the Halberg-Rassey models are deck-stepped. Nearly all of the boats that compete in the Vendee Globe and similar ocean races have deck-stepped masts. That said, I want a keel-stepped mast on my blue-water boat. And a backstay, thank you. Paul
please wait for facts
Dont just jump to conclusions until we have the whole story, If the boat was a valient you all would not be blaming the boat you would probably be saying pilot error! lets not turn this into hunter or B&R bashing until facts are present. John S/V Alcyone
Dont just jump to conclusions until we have the whole story, If the boat was a valient you all would not be blaming the boat you would probably be saying pilot error! lets not turn this into hunter or B&R bashing until facts are present. John S/V Alcyone
Engine
I've never been in conditions quite that bad, but I know that it's not uncommon to lose an engine when it's rough. The sludge and gunk at the bottom of the fuel tank gets stirred up and clogs the fuel filters. I'm curious if he had a sea anchor; and for that matter, what the waves were like. If the waves were short enough I guess the sea anchor wouldn't help much either. Dave is a site user so I suspect we'll get the scoop sooner or later.
I've never been in conditions quite that bad, but I know that it's not uncommon to lose an engine when it's rough. The sludge and gunk at the bottom of the fuel tank gets stirred up and clogs the fuel filters. I'm curious if he had a sea anchor; and for that matter, what the waves were like. If the waves were short enough I guess the sea anchor wouldn't help much either. Dave is a site user so I suspect we'll get the scoop sooner or later.
One one is bashing Hunter!
I love my Hunter! She is a great boat. I do not want to be in 20 ft sea and 50 MPH winds in her! The facts are out: the mast came down. I don't think you'll hear too much more about it.
I love my Hunter! She is a great boat. I do not want to be in 20 ft sea and 50 MPH winds in her! The facts are out: the mast came down. I don't think you'll hear too much more about it.
I agree about the engine
Also the oil is moving up and down as the boat is going through the waves. The prop might also be coming out of the water too. A sea anchor would have been a big help too. How about a very small storm sail? Would that have help?
Also the oil is moving up and down as the boat is going through the waves. The prop might also be coming out of the water too. A sea anchor would have been a big help too. How about a very small storm sail? Would that have help?
Jim I agree with most of what you say,But I'd like
to clarify a few things. Not all Catalinas are deck stepped. Like you said I do think the C470 is as are some others. I am absolutely sure the C36 and a few others are keel stepped. Another point is that a with my conservative single spreader rig, which has a forestay, backstay, shrouds and a fore AND aft spreader stay. This is the type of rig you typically see on conservative cruising boats such as a Pacific Seacraft. Most expert riggers beleive (Brian Toss being one of them see link below) think this type of rig has a better chance of keeping the mast up after losing a single shroud or stay than other more "exotic" designed rigs. But obviously you lose some performance with this type of rig and also have a bit more weight aloft......every boat is a compromise. But, the fact remains if the standing rigging doesn't break then the mast shouldn't come down. What size shrouds and stays are on a H376?
to clarify a few things. Not all Catalinas are deck stepped. Like you said I do think the C470 is as are some others. I am absolutely sure the C36 and a few others are keel stepped. Another point is that a with my conservative single spreader rig, which has a forestay, backstay, shrouds and a fore AND aft spreader stay. This is the type of rig you typically see on conservative cruising boats such as a Pacific Seacraft. Most expert riggers beleive (Brian Toss being one of them see link below) think this type of rig has a better chance of keeping the mast up after losing a single shroud or stay than other more "exotic" designed rigs. But obviously you lose some performance with this type of rig and also have a bit more weight aloft......every boat is a compromise. But, the fact remains if the standing rigging doesn't break then the mast shouldn't come down. What size shrouds and stays are on a H376?
More info
Looks like the rig wrapped around the prop shaft, thus killing the engine. See news article in the link below. This one looks a little less accurate on some details, but has some interviews.
Looks like the rig wrapped around the prop shaft, thus killing the engine. See news article in the link below. This one looks a little less accurate on some details, but has some interviews.
Well, no matter what, they did....
pass the most important test, they survived! No matter what the cirumstances of their misfortune, they are alive and can either repair or replace their boat and sail another day. Demasting is not all that uncommon (IMO) from watching all the shows about races that involve bad storms. The fact that the rig got tangled in the prop is no fault of Hunter, maybe no way for the crew to act fast enough to prevent either. However, one thing to keep in mind, the hull stayed intact, the boat looked to be floating above its waterline, and other than the mast and engine, it seems to me the boat did pretty well. So, I too want to hear the personal story from Dave Hope. I think there will be much for all of us to learn.
pass the most important test, they survived! No matter what the cirumstances of their misfortune, they are alive and can either repair or replace their boat and sail another day. Demasting is not all that uncommon (IMO) from watching all the shows about races that involve bad storms. The fact that the rig got tangled in the prop is no fault of Hunter, maybe no way for the crew to act fast enough to prevent either. However, one thing to keep in mind, the hull stayed intact, the boat looked to be floating above its waterline, and other than the mast and engine, it seems to me the boat did pretty well. So, I too want to hear the personal story from Dave Hope. I think there will be much for all of us to learn.
Not "bashing" Hunter ... or the others
Don't think anyone here is "bashing" Hunter, or the others ... most of us own one of them. I read these posts as trying to learn what these boats can and cannot do. I could make a list of ALL the things I'd like in a boat, but I'd never be able to afford that vessel. So I sail my O'Day, with a worse rig than most of the craft discussed in these posts, enjoy my time on the water, and try to be very sure I keep within her limits. These types of exchanges help me determine what those limits are/should be. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Don't think anyone here is "bashing" Hunter, or the others ... most of us own one of them. I read these posts as trying to learn what these boats can and cannot do. I could make a list of ALL the things I'd like in a boat, but I'd never be able to afford that vessel. So I sail my O'Day, with a worse rig than most of the craft discussed in these posts, enjoy my time on the water, and try to be very sure I keep within her limits. These types of exchanges help me determine what those limits are/should be. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Heaving- to
I think that all boats have limits and the most important thing to do is to take care of the boat. Hunter, Catalina, or what ever(Heck, a catalina 27 has circumnavigated. deck stepped and all)I think they all have points of failure. Even the 60's that circumnavigate have mast failures. They are designed for the abuse. I think there is alot to be learned here. I have talked to my brother about heaving-to and we disagree on the subject. This is my stance at this point. There comes a time when sailing into the wind or turning and running just won't cut it. My brother does not care for Larry Pardy but I think his "Storm Tactics" book is good. Heaving-to is not enough, Bow into the wind or laying ahull. The tactic of a storm anchor off the bow that is tuned by a snatch block to the stern, can be used to turn the boat slightly at an angle to the waves looks like a winner. I have tried this on the small lake that I do most of my sailing on, to see if it would work. I set the storm anchor from the bow, then connected a snatch block to the rode and brought a line back to the stern cleat to adjust the angle of the boat to the wind and waves. I looked into the water to windward and saw the turbulance from the keel and the storm anchor changing the immediate wave pattern around the boat. The water was calmer and the boat was riding nicely. This was only a 10-15 knot wind. It probably took an hour to be blown less than a half mile. I intend to do this again the next opportunity I have a higher wind. I think this method might not work with every boat but, it relieves stress on the mast, and the pounding of the boat. Just my thoughts....... rebuttals welcome r.w.landau
I think that all boats have limits and the most important thing to do is to take care of the boat. Hunter, Catalina, or what ever(Heck, a catalina 27 has circumnavigated. deck stepped and all)I think they all have points of failure. Even the 60's that circumnavigate have mast failures. They are designed for the abuse. I think there is alot to be learned here. I have talked to my brother about heaving-to and we disagree on the subject. This is my stance at this point. There comes a time when sailing into the wind or turning and running just won't cut it. My brother does not care for Larry Pardy but I think his "Storm Tactics" book is good. Heaving-to is not enough, Bow into the wind or laying ahull. The tactic of a storm anchor off the bow that is tuned by a snatch block to the stern, can be used to turn the boat slightly at an angle to the waves looks like a winner. I have tried this on the small lake that I do most of my sailing on, to see if it would work. I set the storm anchor from the bow, then connected a snatch block to the rode and brought a line back to the stern cleat to adjust the angle of the boat to the wind and waves. I looked into the water to windward and saw the turbulance from the keel and the storm anchor changing the immediate wave pattern around the boat. The water was calmer and the boat was riding nicely. This was only a 10-15 knot wind. It probably took an hour to be blown less than a half mile. I intend to do this again the next opportunity I have a higher wind. I think this method might not work with every boat but, it relieves stress on the mast, and the pounding of the boat. Just my thoughts....... rebuttals welcome r.w.landau
There's more to this...
I, too, would like to hear Dave's story.... Regardless of the discussion of rig failure, and whether Hunters, etc. are seaworthy, there is another issue here... and there must be more to this story.... because, this should be only about a 3 day run; therefore crew and skipper should have known of impending weather..... More than half of the rhome line course from Beauford SC to West End, Grand Bahama (approx 330 miles) directly opposes the Gulf Stream. Therefore, most peoply making this trip would stay inshore to about Palm Beach before turning East to cross the Stream. Doing so, 1- probably shortens passage time because while slightly longer in distance, it doesn't oppose the stream nearly as long (or as much). 2- allows easy VHF (etc) access to NOAA weather, and the ability to come into one of many inlets when weather is predicted to deteriorate. So, why would anyone knowingly be out in such conditions???? As to the discussion of which boat is or isn't capable of an ocean crossing; obviously, many of you have not been to other parts of the world and seen the types of boats that people have sailed across oceans. You would be surprised at how, apparently, 'unseaworthy' many are... of course, only the prudent skippers have managed to get there. The rest; well, sometimes they make the news getting rescued by big steel (container) ships.....
I, too, would like to hear Dave's story.... Regardless of the discussion of rig failure, and whether Hunters, etc. are seaworthy, there is another issue here... and there must be more to this story.... because, this should be only about a 3 day run; therefore crew and skipper should have known of impending weather..... More than half of the rhome line course from Beauford SC to West End, Grand Bahama (approx 330 miles) directly opposes the Gulf Stream. Therefore, most peoply making this trip would stay inshore to about Palm Beach before turning East to cross the Stream. Doing so, 1- probably shortens passage time because while slightly longer in distance, it doesn't oppose the stream nearly as long (or as much). 2- allows easy VHF (etc) access to NOAA weather, and the ability to come into one of many inlets when weather is predicted to deteriorate. So, why would anyone knowingly be out in such conditions???? As to the discussion of which boat is or isn't capable of an ocean crossing; obviously, many of you have not been to other parts of the world and seen the types of boats that people have sailed across oceans. You would be surprised at how, apparently, 'unseaworthy' many are... of course, only the prudent skippers have managed to get there. The rest; well, sometimes they make the news getting rescued by big steel (container) ships.....
I not saying anything about boats seaworthiness
In fact even with everything that happened, the boat was still mostly intact and floating, which says something. But, this is a valid discussion. What I am commenting on is that even with a rigging failure, by means of the loss of a single stay or shroud, a more conservatively rigged and keel stepped boat has an infinitely better chance of keeping his mast, which might be the only thing getting you home if you are way out there. I know of an 18 year old C36 Hull # 206 (they are up to about 2200 of them now) that had a major rigging failure which happened in about 7-8 foot seas at 2am in 20 kts of wind. They were racing offshore when it happened. The stem fitting broke letting the furler and sail fly off into the wind. With a little quick work they were able to save the mast and still get back to port safely. (see http://users2.ev1.net/~barr/c36rigfailure.htm for pictures and story) I believe they were able to save the mast, even with a catastrophic failure like they had, due to the fact that this is such a conservatively rigged boat. This was due to the boat being keel stepped but *also* because this boat has both a forward and aft spreader stay. Even with the total loss of the forward stay this boat still has the forward spreader stay which helps keep the mast from falling backward. Compare that to the Hunter's B&R rig . It has no forward spreader stays, it achieves the forward "push" on the mast from compression on the angled spreader with the side stays (shrouds?) . I really doubt there is a skipper out there that can keep a mast from coming down on this boat if it loses a stay out on the water. (One exception to this logic, though, is if you actually roll the boat 360 degrees, then I would rather have a deck stepped mast and have the rig come off completely than potentially rip a bigger hole in the deck, but this is even a lot less common than having a rigging failure) Don't get me wrong, there are advantages to the B&R rig, the backstayless design allows for a bigger mainsail, it also allows for a smaller diameter mast which helps reduce weight aloft, etc. But if you lose a stay or shroud out on the water, you are in trouble. It has been said many times before. Every boat is a compromise, this is one of them. BTW Obviously there was a defect in that particular boats stem fitting and I know of no other failures of this type and anyway the newer C36's have a completely different design these days. But anything can happen out there, and its nice to know and be ready for what can happen.
In fact even with everything that happened, the boat was still mostly intact and floating, which says something. But, this is a valid discussion. What I am commenting on is that even with a rigging failure, by means of the loss of a single stay or shroud, a more conservatively rigged and keel stepped boat has an infinitely better chance of keeping his mast, which might be the only thing getting you home if you are way out there. I know of an 18 year old C36 Hull # 206 (they are up to about 2200 of them now) that had a major rigging failure which happened in about 7-8 foot seas at 2am in 20 kts of wind. They were racing offshore when it happened. The stem fitting broke letting the furler and sail fly off into the wind. With a little quick work they were able to save the mast and still get back to port safely. (see http://users2.ev1.net/~barr/c36rigfailure.htm for pictures and story) I believe they were able to save the mast, even with a catastrophic failure like they had, due to the fact that this is such a conservatively rigged boat. This was due to the boat being keel stepped but *also* because this boat has both a forward and aft spreader stay. Even with the total loss of the forward stay this boat still has the forward spreader stay which helps keep the mast from falling backward. Compare that to the Hunter's B&R rig . It has no forward spreader stays, it achieves the forward "push" on the mast from compression on the angled spreader with the side stays (shrouds?) . I really doubt there is a skipper out there that can keep a mast from coming down on this boat if it loses a stay out on the water. (One exception to this logic, though, is if you actually roll the boat 360 degrees, then I would rather have a deck stepped mast and have the rig come off completely than potentially rip a bigger hole in the deck, but this is even a lot less common than having a rigging failure) Don't get me wrong, there are advantages to the B&R rig, the backstayless design allows for a bigger mainsail, it also allows for a smaller diameter mast which helps reduce weight aloft, etc. But if you lose a stay or shroud out on the water, you are in trouble. It has been said many times before. Every boat is a compromise, this is one of them. BTW Obviously there was a defect in that particular boats stem fitting and I know of no other failures of this type and anyway the newer C36's have a completely different design these days. But anything can happen out there, and its nice to know and be ready for what can happen.
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