Hunter 49 / 50 AC with 12kw generator problems

[artboas]

Ok, so this is going to get a little technical.
First of all, how many out there with 12kw FP gensets?

If yes,,, next question

Are you running Magnum Energy charger / inverter?

If yes, next question,

When you are at anchor, and you are running your charger from the genset, and having an airco unit turned on, (let's assume The main salon airco), is your genset throwing out an error "phase imbalance"?

I know why this is happening, and I'm just wondering if anyone else is seeing the same problem?

Secondly,, and this is MUCH more important
Last summer I posted a hunter wiring error where the 220v connects to the power inlet. I found on my boat that the green wire was connected to the white wire input on the receptacle.
To be clear. If you have a 220 volt input boat, AND and isolation transformer, the neutral is derived from the transformer secondary. You DO NOT use the shore neutral. Hunter mistakenly installed the green conductor into the white receptacle position. The green MUST be connected to to the grounded housing.
I urge people to check this. A few reported back, and said , yes, it was wrong.
This it potentially very dangerous

Second reminder.
I Damned near got killed from a Marinco smart Y adapter
First, here is a common setup.
Marinco smart Y plugs into 2 30 amp dock receptacles. This wires to a 240v 50amp female. You then connect your 50 amp power cord into the adapter, and plug it into the boat.
Here is the VERY SERIOUS problem. If you have your 50 amp power cable connected to the adapter, which is plugged into the boat, as soon as you plug the first 30 amp male plug into the dock power post, the second 30 amp MALE plug contacts become energized with full voltage. So. If you inadvertently touch the exposed blades on the second 30 amp plug, you are going to go (literally ) flying about 3, feet.
After recovering from the serious trauma of this, I tracked it down, and figured out why this was happening. It WAS NOT a Hunter wiring error. The problem was that Marinco made no allowance for the use of an isolation transformer. Which would energize the exposed prong with 230 volts
I contacted them. Yes. They knew all about it. And their answer was that the "newer design corrected this" They recccomended I buy a new one.
If you have a Marinco smart y adapter which looks like a big plastic moulding, (not a box- shaped unit) get rid of it with extreme prejudice.

 

[Rick486]

"...extreme prejudice..."
Hmmm, does this jargon reflect on your former life Art?

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

Art, have run airco many times off the gen set. Never seen error message "phase imbalance" on FP 12 mini. Although I have never used a smart "Y" connector I always turn off the power before I make any shore connections, and only turn it back on after all connections are made. I also put a cheap combination lock on the cover to the shore power circuit breaker. I know when returning to the dock the shore power is off and when connected makes it harder for someone to turn off the power to my boat.

 

[artboas]

Art, have run airco many times off the gen set. Never seen error message "phase imbalance" on FP 12 mini. Although I have never used a smart "Y" connector I always turn off the power before I make any shore connections, and only turn it back on after all connections are made. I also put a cheap combination lock on the cover to the shore power circuit breaker. I know when returning to the dock the shore power is off and when connected makes it harder for someone to turn off the power to my boat.

 

[artboas]

More specific question
When you are running the genset, have you got the Magnum charger running as well?
In other words,
Genset on
Magnum running flat out charging
Airco on

 

[artboas]

Oops. Slip of the tongue

 

[Jeff Jellick]

Ok, so this is going to get a little technical.
First of all, how many out there with 12kw FP gensets?

If yes,,, next question

Are you running Magnum Energy charger / inverter?

If yes, next question,

When you are at anchor, and you are running your charger from the genset, and having an airco unit turned on, (let's assume The main salon airco), is your genset throwing out an error "phase imbalance"?

I know why this is happening, and I'm just wondering if anyone else is seeing the same problem?

Secondly,, and this is MUCH more important
Last summer I posted a hunter wiring error where the 220v connects to the power inlet. I found on my boat that the green wire was connected to the white wire input on the receptacle.
To be clear. If you have a 220 volt input boat, AND and isolation transformer, the neutral is derived from the transformer secondary. You DO NOT use the shore neutral. Hunter mistakenly installed the green conductor into the white receptacle position. The green MUST be connected to to the grounded housing.
I urge people to check this. A few reported back, and said , yes, it was wrong.
This it potentially very dangerous

Second reminder.
I Damned near got killed from a Marinco smart Y adapter
First, here is a common setup.
Marinco smart Y plugs into 2 30 amp dock receptacles. This wires to a 240v 50amp female. You then connect your 50 amp power cord into the adapter, and plug it into the boat.
Here is the VERY SERIOUS problem. If you have your 50 amp power cable connected to the adapter, which is plugged into the boat, as soon as you plug the first 30 amp male plug into the dock power post, the second 30 amp MALE plug contacts become energized with full voltage. So. If you inadvertently touch the exposed blades on the second 30 amp plug, you are going to go (literally ) flying about 3, feet.
After recovering from the serious trauma of this, I tracked it down, and figured out why this was happening. It WAS NOT a Hunter wiring error. The problem was that Marinco made no allowance for the use of an isolation transformer. Which would energize the exposed prong with 230 volts
I contacted them. Yes. They knew all about it. And their answer was that the "newer design corrected this" They recccomended I buy a new one.
If you have a Marinco smart y adapter which looks like a big plastic moulding, (not a box- shaped unit) get rid of it with extreme prejudice.

Art, have run airco many times off the gen set. Never seen error message "phase imbalance" on FP 12 mini. Although I have never used a smart "Y" connector I always turn off the power before I make any shore connections, and only turn it back on after all connections are made. I also put a cheap combination lock on the cover to the shore power circuit breaker. I know when returning to the dock the shore power is off and when connected makes it harder for someone to turn off the power to my boat.

Question, would this apply to a Hunter 45 CC which also

 

[Jeff Jellick]

Would this also apply to a hunter 45 CC which also has an isolation transformer, a 8 KW FP Mini Generator, but only requires 120 volt shore power?
Thanks, Jeff

 

[artboas]

So, here's the whole scoop on this
The FP genset puts out 220v.
The way that the boat is wired is two 120 volt feeds coming from either the mains shore power, or the genset.
When the genset is running, the charger is putting about 100A into the battery banks. The charger is a single phase device, which means its running from only one side of the FP output.
So, it's drawing about 15A from phase 1, while phase 2 has virtually zero current draw.
Now, you turn on the aircos.
This is a different story. The aircos are 220v, which mean that they split their current equally between both Ph1 & ph2.
But, let's assume the aircos draw 10a per phase at startup.
Now you have a pretty big phase imbalance on the FP, which will cause it to oscillate and behave badly.
There is an easy fix. When you are running on genset, dial down the max charging power on the Magnum to 50%.
It will allow you to run the aircos & charger. Only disadvantage is that the charger will take longer to top up the batteries.
If you need any more info, consult both FP & Magnum.
If you have the isolation transformer on your boat, there is a workaround

 

[artboas]

No
Only the 220 volt boats

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

YES, I run the Magnum charger at maximum output, have never dialed it down. I have run the generator with just the charger, and also with the airco on. I know that this imbalance exists on the Hunter 50, as the FP display shows the different output on phase 1 & 2. Although it concerns me, it has not resulted in any oscillation or other problem on my boat. I do think a 220v charger would have been nice.
As a side note, on my Hunter 41 DS, I have had to reduce the output of the charger when connected to shore power and only one 30 amp cordset or I trip the panel breaker when other loads are turned on.

 

[artboas]

Interesting.
The FP on mine will not tolerate load imbalances greater than 15A. It goes into oscillation
Do you have an isolation transformer?
For switching between shore & genset, do you have a big rotary switch, or the 2 small toggle switches on the panel?
Just out of interest, when your charger is running on genset, and you select the meters function on the magnum, how much current are you drawing? At full charge it should be about 135 amps

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

I have 2 isolation transformers for the incoming shore power. I don't think they have any effect on the FP.
Rotary switch for switching. I have seen up to 140 amps at full charge. Just installed 3 new 8D gels.

 

[JimInPB]

If you have a Marinco smart y adapter which looks like a big plastic moulding, (not a box- shaped unit) get rid of it with extreme prejudice.

If you would like to safely dispose of that dangerous piece of equipment, please feel free to send it to me.

 

[artboas]

2 transformers...
Are you sure?
Is one an ground ISO only?
Any photos?

 

[artboas]

I am intrigued a bit by your setup.
Was the AC rotary switch factory installed?
It was on all 49s & early 50s that the ac source was selected by rocker switches on the ac panel, which then drove 50A Stanford relays. Quite reliable actually.
I then understood they went at some point to a Blue Seas 50 A rotary switch, which was mounted near the chart table.
Getting back to your transformer (s)
I have a hard time believing you have 2 transformers, because they are huge & very expensive.
Now, I'm not sure if you have the 12kVA Charles transformer, which is what i have.
It permits me to run the boat from 120 dock power, as well as 208 or 230. But, it gets a bit complicated to achieve that.
Now Hunter did an interesting modification on some of the CC 50s.
What they did was run the generator through the isolation transformer. . So, they used the rotary switch to connect either shore or the FP to the xformer input.
What you need to understand is that with the transformer, you DO NOT use the dock neutral: only the 220 phase legs. The neutral is derived on the transformer secondary from the centre tap.
So, what they did with the FP was drop the neutral connection, and basically just use the 220 ph1 & ph2. No more current imbalance as far as the FP was concerned.
Of course, the xformer secondary still had imbalance, but who cares?
I've thought about rigging a xformer to have the magnum run from 220, but it's just not worth the effort.
Once again, please send photos (you can pm me) about your transformers.
Did you change your water pump? Best modification ever!!!

 

[artboas]

I was standing in damp grass with sandals on. Most of us subconsciously straighten out the twist lock blades before plugging in, cause they're always a little bent.,
And that's when I flew right off the ground.
I cannot tell you how dangerous this was. I seriously almost bought the farm, cause it was 220 across my chest standing in wet grass.
And when I finally figured out that the Marinco design was defective, they had the balls to tell me to buy a new one which didn't have that problem.

This is what the extremely dangerous one looks like

I am astounded that they didn't post a proper recall. Shame on them.

I literally cut the plugs off it, and binned it.

 

[mcconkd]

So this question may or may not be related to the thread. I have a 2011 hunter 50 AC. This morning I lost 1 leg ofpower coming into the boat. After extensive checking to make sure it was not due to a problem with my shore power outlets, on my rotary diallocated at the nav station to switch between shore power and generator, the "reverse polarity" red light is on. No changes happened with the shore power connections. I also have a power input at the bow of my boat which was installed when the boat was built. When I plug the power cord in here, I now have both legs of power! Everything is working fine now. Can this have anything with the isolation transformer? Your thoughts?
Also, can you include a picture of what you are referring to as far as the wiring issue where Hunter wired the green and white wire wrong into the isolation transformer? I am not 100% clear on what you are referring to.
Thank you, you can also text me if easier: 815-342-4684
Appreciate the assistance
Keith

 

[artboas]

Yes, I'll csll

 

[mcconkd]

Ok update. I found my power problem and thank you once again to good old Hunter. The power inlet, well the screws that go into the wires to hold them in, inside the recepticle, they were NEVER screwed into the wires! Yup, loose as a goose. They were literally just sitting in the channel and one simply fell out! Now the bad part, once this happened, it must have arced and one of the screws cannot be backed out so I must purchase the outlet inside the fixture. A mere $100+ to fix another one of their mistakes.
Ok back to the other potential wiring error, can you call or send me a pic?
Thank you
Keith