Hunter 26 almost sunk in wind

[graeme000]

Hello all. I had my Hunter 26 in Portsmouth Harbour, UK during the winter on a mooring. It was secured by the mast through to the bow, then to the mooring. We had 30kt winds, gusting 42kts that night... very much unpredicted. So no time to move. The Hunter 26 does not like wind at all. The bow is light.. and will swing in 17kts. Anyway, as usual, all the 30 other boats pointed into the wind, with very little movement, with the hunter doing its little dance. I was watching on CCTV. Ok I thought.. it of a mess but, look like its taking it well.

The next moment I see on my screen the Hunter on its side.. full bottom showing.. then righting. Repeating this over and over, for four hours.. (helpless was the feeling) As if it wanted to test the wind by being side on all the time, then going over rather than straightening up. Ended up with the mast 45 degrees in the water! Then, righting.. to just over 45 degrees of straight up a few seconds later. Rescued the next morning, pumped out water from bulkheads, bow, cabin and - well the bilge. So I think that was from the cb area (does this when heeling anyway - so not a problem - though I could seal it there a bit more)

My question would be - would adding a fresh water tank in the bow (say 26 gallons/110 Litres) help with bow not swinging and give it a better character in the wind? Ballast full. The CB was down, and enjoyed its freedom in the air - it dosent get out that much! Other than re aligning the mast everything survived.. just a lot of cleaning!

I have had boats the same size before and they all liked to face the wind.. Though the exposed area is quite large, so maybe that cant be helped. Im a bit scared to anchor in a harbour now in case the wind comes, with not much warning

 

[SycloneDriver]

What about one of those anchor sails? They help keep the boat pointed into the wind at anchor.

 

[graeme000]

What about one of those anchor sails? They help keep the boat pointed into the wind at anchor.

That might be worth experimenting with actually.. I will have a look.. haha would be nice to be able to dock the dinghy without the boat going flying off on its travels, by the time I get there.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

My question would be - would adding a fresh water tank in the bow (say 26 gallons/110 Litres) help with bow not swinging and give it a better character in the wind?

I've tested this thought with my water tank in the bow at 190 Kg. With a full water tank this does not reduce the swinging at anchor in a heavy wind by one iota. I've also fabricated an anchor sail and tried with no noticeable difference and I'm not willing to part with the cost of a commercial anchor sail when the success seems to be about 50/50. I suspect many of the yay sayers are just trying to save face when the sail doesn't work after forking out the money.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Water in the boat.

Was the water ballast tank full?
Do you have a lot of gear in the rear berth ?
Did you notice any leaking prior to storm?
Is the bolt holding the Centerboard tight?
Did you see any prior water in the bilge?

The centerboard housing is part of the hull but there are holes in the centerboard housing for: 1. 7/16 inch centerboard line through the compression post 2. Air vent under bottom step 3. Wing nut under bottom step 4. Centerboard housing retaining bolt which is a 3/4 inch thread seen aft of compression post. Just aft up on the compression post, you will see a #10 bolt screwed in the compression post but there is also one on the front side of the compression post.

Was the wind violently gusting from all directions and was this happening to other boat as well? Was the rigging tight? Sails secured? I never had seen this before as a dealer

 

[JBP-PA]

There are four basic ways to reduce "hunting" (pun intended).
1. Reduce windage forward and increase windage aft.
2. Increase lateral underwater resistance forward and decrease lateral resistance aft.
3. Add ground resistance.
4. Change the direction of pull.

1. Adding an anchor sail can make a big difference. They are pretty cheap, especially if you can sew. Remove your dinghy off the bow, close your chain locker hatch, remove sails from the foredeck, etc. For longer periods, remove any furling headsails.
2. Increase weight in the bow as you said. Lash your tiller to the side. The CB up or down depends on your boat and your windage. Your boat may do better with the CB up.
3. Drop a kellet or anchor off your bow or stern on very short scope so that it can drag but offer enough resistance to stop your swing.
4. Rig a springline bridle so that the pull is more from one side than the other. Some boats like to anchor from the stern (although that add other risks).

My boat would swing at anchor pretty badly. After many trials of the above, I found that a simple anchor sail, tiller lashed to the side, and CB up work best.

 

[rgranger]

The idea of an anchor sail on an H26 will require some creative engineering. The H26 has swept back spreaders and no back stay. You might be able to rig an anchor sail on the topping lift line and then secure the boom slightly to one side. I would practice this in lighter winds to see if it works. My worry is that it would act too much like an actual sail and start driving the boat forward. Maybe test the idea by finding a used small jib and set it up and see if it holds your nose into the wind. If it works, then have a proper stay sail made that is cut flat and with heavy stiff materials.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Wait till he responds to my questions as he reported water in the boat

 

[graeme000]

Water in the boat.

Was the water ballast tank full?

Yes. It was full. But fills itself up quite quickly which suggests that the seal needs replacing. So that will be on my list.

Do you have a lot of gear in the rear berth ?
Hi Dave, Thankyou for the info.

No..just a few sleeping bags.

Did you notice any leaking prior to storm?
No.. It was a nice dry boat, bilge dry. Except when we went out and did some heeling.. then water would be in the bilge.
Not a lot after a days sailing. Didnt have an automatic bilge pump then.. so fitted one. But it just filled the center of bilge - so not too much.

Is the bolt holding the Centerboard tight?
Yes this bolt is tight, and usually dry.

Did you see any prior water in the bilge?
No - the bilge is usually nice and dry.

The centerboard housing is part of the hull but there are holes in the centerboard housing for: 1. 7/16 inch centerboard line through the compression post 2. Air vent under bottom step 3. Wing nut under bottom step 4. Centerboard housing retaining bolt which is a 3/4 inch thread seen aft of compression post. Just aft up on the compression post, you will see a #10 bolt screwed in the compression post but there is also one on the front side of the compression post.

Was the wind violently gusting from all directions and was this happening to other boat as well? Was the rigging tight? Sails secured? I never had seen this before as a dealer

Yes sails secured and tight.. mast straight and tensioned.
The wind was from the one direction.. other boats seemed to take it ok, pointing into the wind, but the boat was perpendicular to it. This is from when I noticed it, it could be it had taken a lot of water by then, and gave up!

A lot of water in both bulkheads in port side and bow area.

Luckily I had epoxied the floor well.. so this dried easily and survived! It was amazing the see the boat rolling that much and righting itself.. It was lovely to watch (looking back.. not at the time) .. The mast stay was loose so replaced that just in case it was 'stretched' and weakened.

Your comments were invaluable in getting it back to normal.. re the tank, position, floor gap. We placed the boat in a marina with a slight incline to drain any water in those areas to the bilge area - without slipping off due to the hull rising fore and aft .. checked the tank for leaks due to stress.. all was ok. (On the incline water did flood out into the bilge - probably trapped in the small gap - about half a bucketful?)

Ive seen you mention the Deck to Hull joint many times.. added weight and no intrusion of water but did note this could be an area to look at. I notice some slight very small surface cracks there.. but dont think this is new, so will fill those in. Feels nice and hard - no soft areas etc..

So im thinking that wing valve under the step.. in the rolling let out water into the bilge.. the tank refilled quickly.. enabling this to happen again.. and again.. until this provided extra sloshing.. enough to bring it over even more.. stay failing.. adding even more leverage to the port side .. so unless you can see more going on.. I will work in that area? And go over the areas you mentioned near the compression post, and sealing if I find anything.

Also there was no bridle on the mooring line.. it went through the front ... but had come out of this.. so veering to the side.. im sure this could not have helped.. as it was held more to the side as to the center of the bow.. mmm

 

[patbratton]

I would not be surprised to find that the boat is leaking at the shear line every time the rail goes under water. John and Anita Baumgartner, who completed the Great Loop in their H260, made extensive modifications to the boat before they started the trip. One of the things that John did was," straightened the bond between deck and hull with SS bolts every 6 inches all the way around."
My H240 takes on water whenever I bury the rail. The bilge pump handles the issue.

 

[CrispyCringle]

Im trying to understand how the boat got healed over so much when all the other boats are upright. Ive never heard of this happening. Is it because it was swinging so much on anchor that it got broadside to the wind?

I dont understand the second sentence of the first post- "It was secured by the mast through to the bow, then to the mooring". Are you saying you had the anchor line tied off at the mast then through the bow cleat?

What an experience, watching it on CCTV! I would be sick.

 

[philiefay]

Terrifying to see! I wonder if you would have had a bridle directly to the port and starboard cleats is that would have made any difference. I do not understand how you attach the mooring to the mast but I assume it would be via the cleats. Also, was the centre board down? hard to tell from that photo.

 

[graeme000]

Im trying to understand how the boat got healed over so much when all the other boats are upright. Ive never heard of this happening. Is it because it was swinging so much on anchor that it got broadside to the wind?

I dont understand the second sentence of the first post- "It was secured by the mast through to the bow, then to the mooring". Are you saying you had the anchor line tied off at the mast then through the bow cleat?

What an experience, watching it on CCTV! I would be sick.

Yes, secured around the base of the mast, then bow cleat (as didnt know how strong that was) then out the bow via the anchor line support, but the pin came loose and the line came out to the side, in line with the end of the anchor locker. Could have contributed I think. Yes It was a routine.. into the wind nicely, then would dance around, side on, go over, then slowly round, right itself, then about 20 seconds later repeat this movement over and over - for about 4 hours. I mentioned earlier that I dont know when I caught it happening, it could have had quite a lot of water at this stage.. or not.

I noted the posts re the anchor sail, which looks like I will experiment with and see if it helps.. ballast in the bow seemed to not help as someone had done that and made no difference. My plan is now to go over all those areas the Dave suggested and check all those areas.. including the bottom compression post areas.. very finely. If that was what was causing the water during my day sails, it could have caused water to come in during the healing during the weather.. and just too quick for the bilge pump.

It would be nice to know what happened, but I think now I have to go over all possibilities so I can prevent it happening again!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

The Hunter 26 was introduced by me in the early 90's plus I was involved in the design of it.
I have asked someone who has given me excellent feedback which I am inquiring about mooring as to length of line between the mooring ball and the sailboat. I have seen the Hunter 26 and 260 on mooring balls. Let's start out with a few items if mooring. If using a bridle between the cleats, the 26 had only one midship cleat at the bow. I used to add the same size cleat for port and starboard of the bow backed with a large backing plate to distribute the load. The cleat in the middle was removed with the two holes filled. The lone cleat was secured to the bow with two machine bolts into encapsulated aluminum plate within the fiberglass which I felt in a strong wind could possibly rip out that lone cleat. As for the bridle, I strongly urged the use of chafe gear to keep the bridle line from being torn rubbing against the boat. Never attach any line from the base of the mast to any mooring line.

If attaching to the bow eye, that needs to be beefed up with a longer backing plate again to distruibute the load if on a mooring ball. That is accessed by removing the tringular plate in the forward part of the V berth held in tightly but also with screws. If you do that, it is a good time to check the anchor locker hose and any other attachments for tightness and dryness. I used a long pipe with two holes drilled out for the bow eye.

Hunter Marine use to have a plant in the UK but I do not remember exactly which years. Boats were listed being built by Hunter Legend as there was another Hunter marine in the UK. The last Hunter 26 left the factory in the fall of 1997 behind my truck. The hull of the 260 is the same design as the Hunter 26. I am pretty sure this boat mentioned by the poster was built in the U.S. However, I do not know the history of this boat but water in the boat is the key. The poster mentions water with people on board, heeling over and possibly of loss of water in the water ballast tank.

Water in the ballast tank will leak out due to the possible issues:
1. If the circular outside plate gasket is worn, water will escape thru the outside gasket if heeled over
too much. Gasket on the inlet side needs to be replaced.
2. Inside under the last step, there is a large gasket attached to large washer under the wing nut. If the
wing nut is tight but water is seeping out beneath the washer, replace the gasket. Please note if 3 to
four people on board should lower the water line causing water to leak from a worn gasket.
3, The air vent under the inside last step is adjustable and if worn out will allow water to intrude into
the cabin. Replace it.

Water seen near the bilge pump under the rear berth:
1, Check all thru hull fittings particularly regarding depth finders and or speed transducers for water
seepage.
2. Check the transom lower rudder transom fitting for leakage
3 This is a big one. Check the transom hull to deck joint for any cracks. The hull to deck joint at this
point is filled in with marine putty which cracked will allow water seepage and with several on
board standing in the cockpit can been seen coming thru a weep hole in the center of the rear berth
toward the bilge area and under the galley. To repair, take a dremel tool digging out the old putty up
to the fiberglass and install a new seal using a two part epoxy called Water Tite which is a 24 hour
cure. Water Tite is a the most soluble epoxy that really adheres to fiberglass. It may take several
applications. Use wet and dry sandpaper to smooth and then apply a white plastic paint which you
will need to be color matched. Boat will need to come out of the water for this repair.
4. The poster advised heeling in the water. First a strong recommendation is never heel this boat
over 14 degrees while sailing based on information and experience. I would check the rub rail to
see if leaking there. Close up the cabin and tape a large piece of plastic over the entire
companionway. Then put a small slit in the plastic and insert a leaf blower in that slit taping the
leaf blower funnel to the plastic. When you turn it on, you will be pressurizing the cabin and air has
to escape. Have a second person brushing with soapy water over the entire rub rail and mark
where air is bubbling out which will indicate a leak. You will need to remove the rub rail insert and
mark the insert to the rub rail base. The boat will need to be out of the water for this repair.
Remove the screws and hold up the rub rail base with lines so it will not twist on you. The hull to
deck joint is glued with 5200 marine sealant. If loose, remove and insert new 5200. Reinstall the
rub rail base. If you see any cracks in the epoxy at the transom, follow the directions in #3 as to
repair. At this point if you want to strengthen the seal, you could install machine bolts at 6 inches
apart following the advise of @patbratton above. I have done this too. Thank you for that tidbit
and reminder @patbratton

Like I said, I never saw any of the 26 and 260 sailboats moored in high winds react like that and highly suspect alot of water was inside the boat due to leaks and water was able to escape from the ballast tank at the same time. Not knowing the history of this boat, My recommendation is to remove the boat from the water and check what I have pointed out here.

 

[walt]

All the places water can leak out of the ballast tank were mentioned. That is pretty extreme heel but here is one possible explanation.. Water ballast creates a righting moment because the heel lifts the ballast water mass about a center of buoyancy. Lifting all that water creates a big down force, hence righting moment. But when that ballast water is lifted, the water wants to leak out the bottom seal. If you have a good seal, no issue. But you can imagine a bad bottom seal leaking out water and the more that is leaked out, the less righting moment the boat has, the less wind force to make the boat heel more.

The next day in calm conditions, the leaky bottom seal would allow the tank to fully fill again. I dont have that boat but it sounds like that normally doesnt not happen. I do have an old 1990 water ballast Mac 26S and had it on a mooring at very windy place and it hunted around but never anything like that. I tried a rear anchor sail, it didnt do much for me. What worked the best was a drag bucket at the bow of the boat (move the hull center of resistance forward as someone mentioned early in the thread. The bow drag bucket made a difference until a bit of swell where the bow was going up and down ended up ripping the drag bucket off.

 

[philiefay]

Graeme, I do not see if your centerboard was down or up. Can you comment on that? If it was down and the wind shifted would there have been any way the mooring line could have caught behind it? If the mooring was chain I could not see that happening but if you had a long bridle or rope I could see that absolutely happening....and the effect what you show in the photo. You could also do a pressure test on the ballast tank to see if it is in fact holding/ leaking water.