I am looking for a trailerable (volvo v70 wagon tow vehicle) to sail primarily in smaller lakes of Madison area. I have two kids that I feel are currently too young (<3yrs.) to be on a small boat, therefore, the 212 would be for me (singlehanded) and a couple guests occasionally, until the kids are older - also as a hobby boat for the off-season. I have read about stability in these forums and realize that the 212 is not "ballasted" per se but would like some input on stability from anyone who takes young kids out day sailing on small sailboats especially with open transoms. Should I try to do it on the 212 (used one in area for $11,000), or will my wife be irreversibly traumatized and never let them out of her sight again?? I have looked at the Hunter 240, Mac 26x and the like but feel it is too big for the volvo wagon to tow safely and a bit too much boat at this stage. Probably apparent, but this would be my first boat. Thanks
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(almost) irreversibly traumatized
Ed, The scenario you describe comes very close to where I was several years ago so I'll try to tell you some of the mistakes I made. My wife had no sailing or boating experience (a friend had recently let us barefoot on his tyanna 37 for a weekend) and my kids were 2 and 4 yrs old. The "bug" hit me and I bought a San Juan 21, very similar to a 212. On our maiden voyage, all of us jumped on and with the wind at our backs we sailed out of the small cove. As we hit the main lake we were hit with the full force of the wind, probably 18-20 knots. I didn't realize it at the time but the centerboard was only about 1/3 of the way down. We went so far over that water was pouring into the cockpit. Anyway you get the picture kids screaming, sails flapping violently, wife paralized with fear. I finally got the sails down after breaking a batten and started the outboard, (for the second time in my life). We made it about 200 yards back to the dock and the engine cut off. Started again and the same thing happenned after 200 yards, it cut off. Did this about 15 times until I realized I needed to open the fuel vent. My wife never set foot on the San Juan 21 again, luckally She had had a very good experience on the Tyanna 37 and we soon tried again with a Watkins 27, Which I spent several weekends learning on BEFORE the family came aboard. Ed I'm getting really long winded here so I'll try to wrap this up. Yes, the 212 will be a great boat for your family IF you know what your doing when you take them out for the first time. Learn the boat and it's systems, and pick idylic afternoons to introduce the family. It took a long time before my family "trusted" me as captain again but it did happen. My now 12 year old daughter is pretty good at docking our Hunter 34 and she and I are thinking about entering the Spring race series along with her little brother. My wife still gives me a kind of dirty look if I'm slow in suggesting we reef the boat, but the whole experience of sailing has given all of us something else in common and made us a team.
Ed, The scenario you describe comes very close to where I was several years ago so I'll try to tell you some of the mistakes I made. My wife had no sailing or boating experience (a friend had recently let us barefoot on his tyanna 37 for a weekend) and my kids were 2 and 4 yrs old. The "bug" hit me and I bought a San Juan 21, very similar to a 212. On our maiden voyage, all of us jumped on and with the wind at our backs we sailed out of the small cove. As we hit the main lake we were hit with the full force of the wind, probably 18-20 knots. I didn't realize it at the time but the centerboard was only about 1/3 of the way down. We went so far over that water was pouring into the cockpit. Anyway you get the picture kids screaming, sails flapping violently, wife paralized with fear. I finally got the sails down after breaking a batten and started the outboard, (for the second time in my life). We made it about 200 yards back to the dock and the engine cut off. Started again and the same thing happenned after 200 yards, it cut off. Did this about 15 times until I realized I needed to open the fuel vent. My wife never set foot on the San Juan 21 again, luckally She had had a very good experience on the Tyanna 37 and we soon tried again with a Watkins 27, Which I spent several weekends learning on BEFORE the family came aboard. Ed I'm getting really long winded here so I'll try to wrap this up. Yes, the 212 will be a great boat for your family IF you know what your doing when you take them out for the first time. Learn the boat and it's systems, and pick idylic afternoons to introduce the family. It took a long time before my family "trusted" me as captain again but it did happen. My now 12 year old daughter is pretty good at docking our Hunter 34 and she and I are thinking about entering the Spring race series along with her little brother. My wife still gives me a kind of dirty look if I'm slow in suggesting we reef the boat, but the whole experience of sailing has given all of us something else in common and made us a team.
Take mine out all the time..
...my 3 and 6 yr. old have a lot of fun on my 212. The cabin is large enough for them to play around in and the transom is kind of a non issue for us. You can purchase (or make) a transom net that catches any bottles, toys and kids before they roll out the back. I removed my net this summer because it was more in the way. Andy is right. If you know what you are doing - it'll be great for them. My family has never been out in more than 3-5 knots. I save that for me and my buddies
...my 3 and 6 yr. old have a lot of fun on my 212. The cabin is large enough for them to play around in and the transom is kind of a non issue for us. You can purchase (or make) a transom net that catches any bottles, toys and kids before they roll out the back. I removed my net this summer because it was more in the way. Andy is right. If you know what you are doing - it'll be great for them. My family has never been out in more than 3-5 knots. I save that for me and my buddies
Mike Bacome
I have no knowledge of the 212 other than to see pic of it, but have sailed for 20 some years with and with out kids from ages 2 to 26, the thought of toddlers in an open transom boat is to me not a good idea, , when the wind picks up and you are relativelyl new to sailing you need all of you wits and concentration to keep the boat under control, I understand budgets , but the thought of harm in any form com ing to a child, is a sobering thought , I would look at some older more stable boats possibly with life lines etc, and if I had to buy an old beater truck to transport th e boat with , just my 2 cents, good luck Mike Bacome
I have no knowledge of the 212 other than to see pic of it, but have sailed for 20 some years with and with out kids from ages 2 to 26, the thought of toddlers in an open transom boat is to me not a good idea, , when the wind picks up and you are relativelyl new to sailing you need all of you wits and concentration to keep the boat under control, I understand budgets , but the thought of harm in any form com ing to a child, is a sobering thought , I would look at some older more stable boats possibly with life lines etc, and if I had to buy an old beater truck to transport th e boat with , just my 2 cents, good luck Mike Bacome
212
Ed; I sailed the prototype and many afterwards. It is a big daysailor with a nice cabin. Easy to launch, make surre it has the mast raise system, roller furling and of course a Porta Poti for the kids and wife. The boat is designed to point high, sail fast and so forth. If you just remember not to heel over 15 degrees and reef early, you should be fine. I have heard all the good and bad stories and if you take my suggestion, you will be fine. As for the open transom, not one of my customers has ever fallen out accidentaly, Crazy Dave Condon
Ed; I sailed the prototype and many afterwards. It is a big daysailor with a nice cabin. Easy to launch, make surre it has the mast raise system, roller furling and of course a Porta Poti for the kids and wife. The boat is designed to point high, sail fast and so forth. If you just remember not to heel over 15 degrees and reef early, you should be fine. I have heard all the good and bad stories and if you take my suggestion, you will be fine. As for the open transom, not one of my customers has ever fallen out accidentaly, Crazy Dave Condon
similar situation
I am strongly considering a 212 this spring. I had been looking at a 170 or similar daysailer, but when I put my kids (ages 3 and 6) in a flying scott for a few hours they made a "fort" in the bow of the boat and played there for quite a long time. My wife and I decided that we need a daysailer with a built-in fort. The 212 seems perfect for us. Also, like you, I am planning on sailing mostly on an 800 acre lake, but I am within a two hour drive of Erie, Huron, Michigan and St. Clair, so I may go to bigger water when I feel more comfortable. Good luck, John Ann Arbor MI
I am strongly considering a 212 this spring. I had been looking at a 170 or similar daysailer, but when I put my kids (ages 3 and 6) in a flying scott for a few hours they made a "fort" in the bow of the boat and played there for quite a long time. My wife and I decided that we need a daysailer with a built-in fort. The 212 seems perfect for us. Also, like you, I am planning on sailing mostly on an 800 acre lake, but I am within a two hour drive of Erie, Huron, Michigan and St. Clair, so I may go to bigger water when I feel more comfortable. Good luck, John Ann Arbor MI
John - Any Others?
Thanks for the replies and advise. John, what other boats have you considered in this range? From what I have read about the 212, it seems that the rudder and engine mount will need to be reconfigured at some point. Maybe this is something to bring up during negotiations?? I also condsidered the 170, but I think a place for the porta potti alone is worth the jump in addition to the cabin space. Can't wait 'till the lake ice thaws... Ed
Thanks for the replies and advise. John, what other boats have you considered in this range? From what I have read about the 212, it seems that the rudder and engine mount will need to be reconfigured at some point. Maybe this is something to bring up during negotiations?? I also condsidered the 170, but I think a place for the porta potti alone is worth the jump in addition to the cabin space. Can't wait 'till the lake ice thaws... Ed
I have a list
I have a pretty good list actually. I have looked at the Catalina 16, the Potter 15, the Potter 19, the hunter 170, and several others. I even considered a Hobie Wave. They say every boat is a compromise, each of these boats has points in it's favor, but here is what I like about the 212: It is beachable (is that a word?) It has a large, open cockpit It is easy to rig, launch and tow the cabin big enough for 70 lbs of kinder It moves well in light wind The kicker for me is that it seems "right-sized" for a family of four on a small lake. I have recently subscribed to "small craft advisor" magazine, they have good reviews of several boats in this size range. john
I have a pretty good list actually. I have looked at the Catalina 16, the Potter 15, the Potter 19, the hunter 170, and several others. I even considered a Hobie Wave. They say every boat is a compromise, each of these boats has points in it's favor, but here is what I like about the 212: It is beachable (is that a word?) It has a large, open cockpit It is easy to rig, launch and tow the cabin big enough for 70 lbs of kinder It moves well in light wind The kicker for me is that it seems "right-sized" for a family of four on a small lake. I have recently subscribed to "small craft advisor" magazine, they have good reviews of several boats in this size range. john
Venture 21 and kids
I sailed a Macgregor 21 Venture for 30 years, raised five kids on it and never turned it over. It's a very safe boat as it will head up before capsizing. it had a fractional rig. Sailed it from Port Isabel to Corpus Christi when I was a lot younger. Mast can be raised in 15 minutes and gone.
I sailed a Macgregor 21 Venture for 30 years, raised five kids on it and never turned it over. It's a very safe boat as it will head up before capsizing. it had a fractional rig. Sailed it from Port Isabel to Corpus Christi when I was a lot younger. Mast can be raised in 15 minutes and gone.
216
take a look at the 216 that will be coming out next spring. The two prototypes are out at the shows and it does sail nicely as I have already experienced this. On the Hunter website. Crazy DAve condon
take a look at the 216 that will be coming out next spring. The two prototypes are out at the shows and it does sail nicely as I have already experienced this. On the Hunter website. Crazy DAve condon
Do not Overlook the 23.5 or 240
They would weigh in at about 3000# I think your Volvo is rated at least that high. Though it would not be ideal for a 300 mile trip every weekend it may be worth considering. A lot of first time boat owners have these, you might as well get a jump on biggerboatitis. No problem with the kids in either of those.
They would weigh in at about 3000# I think your Volvo is rated at least that high. Though it would not be ideal for a 300 mile trip every weekend it may be worth considering. A lot of first time boat owners have these, you might as well get a jump on biggerboatitis. No problem with the kids in either of those.
what about toobigitis?
would the 240 or the 23.5 look and feel silly on an 800 acre lake?? or being trailered through the woods of Michigan's UP? I think if I didn't have kids I would be looking seriously at a 146 or a 170. The 212 seems really big to me. I do not plan on sleeping on it going on extended trips. . . at least for several years. Dave: I have seen pictures of the 216, and you seem pretty high on it. The thing that apeals most about the 212 to me is the idea of finding a used one for around $10k. What do you see as the benifit of the 216? john
would the 240 or the 23.5 look and feel silly on an 800 acre lake?? or being trailered through the woods of Michigan's UP? I think if I didn't have kids I would be looking seriously at a 146 or a 170. The 212 seems really big to me. I do not plan on sleeping on it going on extended trips. . . at least for several years. Dave: I have seen pictures of the 216, and you seem pretty high on it. The thing that apeals most about the 212 to me is the idea of finding a used one for around $10k. What do you see as the benifit of the 216? john
Rare Affliction
Those in end stage biggerboatitis usually have their symptoms remedied when they end up suffering from another ailment secondboatitis. Sadly the only cure seems to be a boatotomy, sometimes this is an elective procedure to prevent a spousectmy.
Those in end stage biggerboatitis usually have their symptoms remedied when they end up suffering from another ailment secondboatitis. Sadly the only cure seems to be a boatotomy, sometimes this is an elective procedure to prevent a spousectmy.
Andy Howard
Hey Andy! I have been on this forum for about 5 yrs (98 Hunter 240)and have never run into an other San Juan owner. I also had a San Juan 21 back in the mid seventies and absolutely loved it. Sold it in 78 & moved to Florida thinking I'd replace it. 20 yrs later I bought the H240 which I also loved (but out grew it on Lake Michigan). I traded it for an older Catalina 30 two months ago, but haven't sailed it yet. Can't wait till spring. One thing about the San Juan... I could heel pretty far, but it would always round up before going over. (never out in waves over 3 feet). If you ever get to the south end of Lake Michigan, give me a holler. Joe
Hey Andy! I have been on this forum for about 5 yrs (98 Hunter 240)and have never run into an other San Juan owner. I also had a San Juan 21 back in the mid seventies and absolutely loved it. Sold it in 78 & moved to Florida thinking I'd replace it. 20 yrs later I bought the H240 which I also loved (but out grew it on Lake Michigan). I traded it for an older Catalina 30 two months ago, but haven't sailed it yet. Can't wait till spring. One thing about the San Juan... I could heel pretty far, but it would always round up before going over. (never out in waves over 3 feet). If you ever get to the south end of Lake Michigan, give me a holler. Joe
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