Hull Speed

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Jun 12, 2011
17
hunter 28 Manhattan
how do these compare with pointing ability and offshore?
s2 9.1 vs J-105

based on handicap numbers J's seem very fast, i wonder if they are good offshore?

second part:
i love figaro 2's, is there any other brand that is similar, triangular hull on plan, open transom. they look like mini volvoocean or vendee's
thank you.
 
Jan 22, 2008
1,483
Hunter 37 C sloop Punta Gorda FL
Hey All, I’m really hoping this isn’t one of those newb questions like “what’s the best boat” (really don’t want to be “that guy” hahaha) but I’m having trouble understanding HULL SPEED and whether or not it should even be a consideration in my new purchase. I’m certainly not looking for a race boat or anything like that, but if planning a few hundred mile trip up the coast for destination sailing, hull speed of said vessel may sway me one way or another if it does affect the trip speed.

I began looking at the Macgregor / Venture 21 and have since expanded my search a little bit with the numerous findings that are out there in the sub-26’ range that have a swing keel or CB, such as the Sandpiper 565 I found with a hull speed of about 5 knots. (though I know it is a bit smaller with noticeably less LWL) Is there even much noticeable difference from model to model in this pocket-cruiser / cabin-sailboat range of boats?

Any recommendations or a link that might help me out here would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Much, have a pleasant day.

-bones-
Hull speed is a function of the square root of waterline length. Some ,but not a lot of difference in hull speed between 21 and 26 feet. Not so important, as you will probasbly spend hours and hours sailing at less than hull speed. For planning purposes, you can figure on about 4 knots, about a hundred miles a day. I think food and water storage would be much more important for a voyage of several hundred miles(several days).
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
how do these compare with pointing ability and offshore?
s2 9.1 vs J-105

based on handicap numbers J's seem very fast, i wonder if they are good offshore?

second part:
i love figaro 2's, is there any other brand that is similar, triangular hull on plan, open transom. they look like mini volvoocean or vendee's
thank you.
Both the S2 and the J are capable boats. As you note the J is much faster, in particular off the wind. They are safe offshore.

If you are looking for a vendee style boat in your length range, check out the Beneteau First 30.

 
Jun 12, 2011
17
hunter 28 Manhattan
first 30's are nice too ofcourse but bit too expensive, my budget is around 20k.
with the traveler in the middle of the flat cockpit and open transom is it possible to install a bimini?
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Hey All, I’m really hoping this isn’t one of those newb questions like “what’s the best boat” (really don’t want to be “that guy” hahaha) but I’m having trouble understanding HULL SPEED and whether or not it should even be a consideration in my new purchase. I’m certainly not looking for a race boat or anything like that, but if planning a few hundred mile trip up the coast for destination sailing, hull speed of said vessel may sway me one way or another if it does affect the trip speed.

I began looking at the Macgregor / Venture 21 and have since expanded my search a little bit with the numerous findings that are out there in the sub-26’ range that have a swing keel or CB, such as the Sandpiper 565 I found with a hull speed of about 5 knots. (though I know it is a bit smaller with noticeably less LWL) Is there even much noticeable difference from model to model in this pocket-cruiser / cabin-sailboat range of boats?

Any recommendations or a link that might help me out here would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Much, have a pleasant day.

-bones-
its all been said already......
choose a boat that sails easily and without a lot of tending to..... your actual SOG is more a matter of HOW you sail it, rather than the theoretical hull speed..... and if your looking at the mac 21, its an easy, comfortable sailing boat and will single-hand nicely....
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,501
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
its all been said already......
choose a boat that sails easily and without a lot of tending to..... your actual SOG is more a matter of HOW you sail it, rather than the theoretical hull speed..... and if your looking at the mac 21, its an easy, comfortable sailing boat and will single-hand nicely....
What he said...

...and the Mac 21 can actually plane a little bit on a run with the sails set wing and wind. Roll the keel up about 3/4 of the way while on a run to reduce drag and you will find yourself surfing down the back side of the waves. :eek::eek::eek:

I've done it on both a Mac 21 and a Mac 22. Great fun.
 
Nov 23, 2011
2,023
MacGregor 26D London Ontario Canada
Both the S2 and the J are capable boats. As you note the J is much faster, in particular off the wind. They are safe offshore.

If you are looking for a vendee style boat in your length range, check out the Beneteau First 30.

I was on this boat at the Toronto boat show a few weeks ago. I was impressed with this boat!
If only the keel retracted so it was easily to trailer.
It seemed to have more room inside and was definitely better appointed and built than the Hunter 33e.
I think I recall price around the 130's!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Kenn hits it.

A fast boat is simply one that spend as much time as possible as close to her hull speed as possible. In any combination of wind speeds and angles. ANY boat will do her hull speed with 12 knots on the beam.

A J/22 and a Catalina 22 have the same basic hull speed. But the J is faster in almost all conditions. That's why they rate so much faster.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I was on this boat at the Toronto boat show a few weeks ago. I was impressed with this boat!
If only the keel retracted so it was easily to trailer.
It seemed to have more room inside and was definitely better appointed and built than the Hunter 33e.
I think I recall price around the 130's!
For sure faster than a H33, but it's a differently designed boat.

Dd you see the First 25s? Retractable 6 foot fin.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,031
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
If a boat can get up on plane under reasonable sailing conditions........ the hull speed theory is irrelevent. The theoretical hull speed is a number contrived to help designers of full displacement hull, steam powered vessels determine the optimal power plant size.... the theoretical hull speed determined the point where the additional power needed, and the corresponding amount of fuel required, to surpass it would not be feasible or practical.

Of course, now we have nuclear powered ships that make that restriction obsolete, but in normal yachting and commercial boat designs...choosing the properly sized auxillery motor for a displacement hull vessel, it would still be relevent.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
If a boat can get up on plane under reasonable sailing conditions........ the hull speed theory is irrelevent. The theoretical hull speed is a number contrived to help designers of full displacement hull, steam powered vessels determine the optimal power plant size.... the theoretical hull speed determined the point where the additional power needed, and the corresponding amount of fuel required, to surpass it would not be feasible or practical.

Of course, now we have nuclear powered ships that make that restriction obsolete, but in normal yachting and commercial boat designs...choosing the properly sized auxillery motor for a displacement hull vessel, it would still be relevent.
If it can't plane, it aint going any faster, even with nuclear power. I don't know of any boat (even nuclear) that can... even the fastest nuke cruisers (USN Arkansas) can barely make their hull speed of 32 knots.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,501
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
If it can't plane, it aint going any faster, even with nuclear power. I don't know of any boat (even nuclear) that can... even the fastest nuke cruisers (USN Arkansas) can barely make their hull speed of 32 knots.
:hijacked:

Hey Guys.... don't mean to seem like a prude (well maybe just a little) but the P.O. is asking about Mac V21 vs some of the 23' boats out there. He said he wants to stay sub 26'.

Talking about Nukes or $130 mega performance yachts is kind of off topic. He just wanted to know if buying a 23' boat vs. a 21' boat might make a big difference in a 40 mile cruise up the coast line.

 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,031
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
If it can't plane, it aint going any faster, even with nuclear power. I don't know of any boat (even nuclear) that can... even the fastest nuke cruisers (USN Arkansas) can barely make their hull speed of 32 knots.
It's a theory, my brother, not a law of physics. It's evolution is based on economics ..... Whether a nuke can exceed theoretical hull speed is most likely classified info, but, I do know that fast attack submarines can exceed it underwater... does that count?
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,031
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
:hijacked:

Hey Guys.... don't mean to seem like a prude (well maybe just a little) but the P.O. is asking about Mac V21 vs some of the 23' boats out there. He said he wants to stay sub 26'.

Talking about Nukes or $130 mega performance yachts is kind of off topic. He just wanted to know if buying a 23' boat vs. a 21' boat might make a big difference in a 40 mile cruise up the coast line.
Good point.... the fact that hull speed was mentioned, however, will always lead to such discussions. Using that factor to determine the answer to his question will be futile.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
my $0.02
pointing ability is the most important number. As the boat will probably have a max speed below 8 knots there are lots of times when the wind will be 8 knots or below. You will be on a beat in those conditions or running DDW S L O W L Y. This is due to the apparent wind coming forward as the boat starts to move. At 100 knots wind speed the true wind is the same as the apparent no matter what the boat speed. When the wind speed gets down around the boat speed everything conspires to make the apparent wind appear as a beat.
So being able to point well is kinda important.
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,807
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
.....and the wind is always coming from the place you're headed to.

All U Get
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Some naval architects argue that the formula for calculating maximum hull speed needs to be updated, as a result of advancements made in the area of hull design and its lines, keel (centreboards/daggerboards) profiles changes and new shape of sails and materials they are made out of.

Examples:
Storm 22
Max hull speed 6.84kt was reached without problems in 3-4B wind in beam reaching and broad reaching. In around 5B wind, maintained speed was 7.4-7.5kt and 8.3kt with spinnaker.

Saturn 23GT
From calculations, maximum hull speed is 7.15kt. The boat commonly sails at 8kt and over 9kt with spinnaker.

Maxus 28
Maximum hull speed 7.8kt, maintained speed was 9.4-9.6kt, and 11.4-11.7 with the gennaker.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Some naval architects argue that the formula for calculating maximum hull speed needs to be updated, as a result of advancements made in the area of hull design and its lines, keel (centreboards/daggerboards) profiles changes and new shape of sails and materials they are made out of.

Examples:
Storm 22
Max hull speed 6.84kt was reached without problems in 3-4B wind in beam reaching and broad reaching. In around 5B wind, maintained speed was 7.4-7.5kt and 8.3kt with spinnaker.

Saturn 23GT
From calculations, maximum hull speed is 7.15kt. The boat commonly sails at 8kt and over 9kt with spinnaker.

Maxus 28
Maximum hull speed 7.8kt, maintained speed was 9.4-9.6kt, and 11.4-11.7 with the gennaker.
If a boat has the right SA/D and D/L ratios, it will start to plane and the THS equation is no longer relevant.

The equation that everyone knows, 1.34*LWL^0.5, is actually over 300 years old, having been first determined by Englishman Anthony Deane for the British Navy. It really can't be updated per se, as it is designed to calculate the speed which creates a bow wave with a period that matches the LWL of the boat in question. But, and this is key, it was designed for heavy displacement boats, like ships of the line. Works good there. But clearly it breaks in lots of cases, for instance on the Beneteau First 235. Dean says it should hit no more than 6.03 knots, and for sure the boat is capable of more than that.

Well about 15 years ago, a Naval Architect named David Gerr tried to figure out what was going on, and how to express it mathematically. For him it seemed that displacement as a function of length is the key.

The first part is rearranging the original equation like this:
1.34 =hulllspeed/(LWL^0.5)

This pulls that bow-wave length factor of 1.34 out, and expresses it for what Gerr thinks works better, a factor of displacement and LWL to calculate speed.

Mr Gerr then created a formula that actually takes LWL and displacement into account. It can be expressed in these three steps:

Step 1: D/L = displacement/2240)/(0.01 * LWL)^3 : Standard D/L ratio
Step 2: S/L = 8.26/(D/L)^0.311 : Here is the Magic
Step 3: Hullspeed = S/L * LWL^0.5 : HS calc with his factor in place, not the bow wave number

Throw in the First 235 numbers (I used 3500 for boat+crew displacement) and you get:

Boat 235
LWL 20.25 feet
Disp 3500 pounds

D/L ratio 188.17
S/L ratio 1.62
Hullspeed 7.29
Old Speed 6.03


7.29knots. That sound better!

PS for more info, see David Gerr: Nature of Boats, McGraw-Hill; Offshore, Dec. 94, pp 29-33

PPS If anyone is interested, I created a very simple XLS file to calculate these new speeds:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/955501/Hullspeed.xlsx

Note - make sure to use an all-in weight, not the light-boat displacement given by the manufacturer. It really factors (like crew weight) into the calculations.
 
Last edited:

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
my $0.02 pointing ability is the most important number...
... I think food and water storage would be much more important for a voyage of several hundred miles(several days).
I agree with both of the above. You might want to consider the Mac 26S in your search. About the weight of the smaller 21-23 foot boats on a trailer, but a ton more room inside for trips. It is faster than 95% of the boats in that length and points well. A nice boat for what you are considering.

Someone else recommended comparing PHRF ratings and if you don't have a link here is one (look for the lower number)...

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/PHRF/High+Low+Mean+PHRF+Handicaps.pdf

Sum

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